Klingons vs. Vulcans

[Kyberwulf]

Thanks for the replies, I wish I can say it was helpful. I can't seem to find anything other than Valcuns are three times stronger than Humans. I also find that every Klingon in any given episodes get their asses kicked.

[shadow_archmagi]

Thanks for the replies, I wish I can say it was helpful. I can't seem to find anything other than Valcuns are three times stronger than Humans. I also find that every Klingon in any given episodes get their asses kicked.

Well, sure, but that's because they're the benchmark for toughness, so protagonists and villains always beat them to show they're Really Tough.

[Deadmeat.GW]

Actually...

Going off the books, the films and the roleplaying game the Vulcans have the edge in pure raw strength but...

Strength alone is meaningless if it is not tempered with either experience or technique.

The fight in TNG was between a substantially stronger male and a female who is properly trained to handle fighting ...substantially stronger people.

The Maquis' traditional enemies (Cardassians) are stronger then humans too...

So when you are trained to handle trained and stronger opponents facing an opponent who is not trained but even stronger is something that either results in you getting overwhelmed quickly or in you winning the longer the fight goes on.

And here being a half Klingon gives you the edge again...

Klingons have about 35% more endurance then Vulcans in some of the Rpg while the Vulcans have about 45% more strength.
In others it is +1 strength / +2 stamina versus +3 strength / +1 stamina and then there is one where it is +2/+1 versus +1/+2.

A military trained Vulcan applying his full strength is deadly (and shown very, very rarely... the writers keep forgetting that Tuvok is actually STRONGER then a human as they had a young, inexperienced human wrestle with him and that human supposedly was a challenge because he was stronger because Vulcans are physically weaker then humans according to the script they wrote for that...whooops...) and you can see how strong when Spock in a berserker rage completely flattens his computer, screen and everything on his desk.

When Spock fought Kirk, Kirk survived because he made Spock remember his friendship.
If it had not been for that the result would have been a very dead Kirk and he was getting thrown around the place like a ragdoll.

One of the comics has a Vulcan arm wrestle a Klingon as it was the most efficient way and the least bloody to stop a fight with a dozen or so Klingons.
The Vulcan overpowers the Klingon twice, the first time he was told to redo it as the Klingon was 'not ready'.

It surprised the Klingons and they backed down from direct violence after it.

Romulans are physically weaker then Vulcans but still stronger then the average human, yet they are shown as being even with Klingons and the their mean streak is used to compensate for the Klingons superior endurance giving them near parity with Klingons in close quarters combat.

When all is said and done Vulcans are supposed to be substantially stronger then humans and noticeably stronger then Klingons but quite a few writers have missed that in several episodes.

In the roleplaying games we got Fasa, Decipher, Last Unicorn Games and several other companies which made Star Trek rpg's btw...

Best in my humble opinion were the Last Unicorn Games ones.

[Parra]

Romulans are physically weaker then Vulcans

I thought Romulans and Vulcans were the same race, just seperated by a few thousand years of culture?

[Deadmeat.GW]

Gravity of the planets after several thousand years.

[hamlet]

I thought Romulans and Vulcans were the same race, just seperated by a few thousand years of culture?

That is correct. And it's something the writers (of both the RPG's and the shows) forgot from time to time when it was convenient.

And I don't think a few millenia is enough time to substantially alter evolution to that extent, but I may be mistaken.

[Avilan the Grey]

That is correct. And it's something the writers (of both the RPG's and the shows) forgot from time to time when it was convenient.

And I don't think a few millenia is enough time to substantially alter evolution to that extent, but I may be mistaken.

It's not. And just as they (writers) forget it occasionally, other times they play up the similarities instead.

[Tiki Snakes]

Thing is, there's plenty to suggest in universe that everyone believes the Klingons to be Proud Warrior Race but there's also the thing where all that seems to boil down to is that the Klingons believe themselves to be excellent warriors. Despite the fact that they are really, really bad at it.

Perhaps, once upon a time they had the nounce and the tactical flexibility to actually put up a good fight, but they range from unskilled bruisers to nostalgic berzerkers strictly sticking to formalised martial styles out of race-identity. It's a pretty rare Klingon who is actually much cop in a fight and they're usually ones who have left the Klingon Empire for a while.

Though this argument is a little Death of the Author, admittedly.

[hamlet]

Thing is, there's plenty to suggest in universe that everyone believes the Klingons to be Proud Warrior Race but there's also the thing where all that seems to boil down to is that the Klingons believe themselves to be excellent warriors. Despite the fact that they are really, really bad at it.

Perhaps, once upon a time they had the nounce and the tactical flexibility to actually put up a good fight, but they range from unskilled bruisers to nostalgic berzerkers strictly sticking to formalised martial styles out of race-identity. It's a pretty rare Klingon who is actually much cop in a fight and they're usually ones who have left the Klingon Empire for a while.

Though this argument is a little Death of the Author, admittedly.

Kor would disagree with you, sir. He managed to hold off several enemy ships long enough for the rest of the fleet to escape, all in one little bird of prey.

He might have been an old, drunken blowhard, but he was, at least at times, a fantastic warrior.

[Chen]

Kor would disagree with you, sir. He managed to hold off several enemy ships long enough for the rest of the fleet to escape, all in one little bird of prey.

He might have been an old, drunken blowhard, but he was, at least at times, a fantastic warrior.

Which honestly didn't make any sense. Why did all the ships stop to engage the Bird of Prey? You're in 3D space, the ones that weren't immediately attacked/disabled should have just kept going. I had the same problem when they had to "break through the lines" of the Dominion fleet when they went to re-take DS9. It seems to be that defending 3D space from incursion is absurdly difficult when you're at a distance from your objective. There's just too much room to maneuver around.

[McStabbington]

Space being in three dimensions doesn't really enter into either situation. In the first case, either Kor was able to bluff all the Jem'Hadar into fighting him, or he was good enough to evade and shoot down the ships went after the remaining Bird's of Prey when they split the task force. It doesn't really matter how it happened; what matters is that Kor did the impossible one last time, which was the theme of the entire episode. To simply stare and protest "But it's impossible!" is to the miss the point of the episode entirely.

And in the second instance, I don't really see how space being three dimensional changes anything. The Federation had a fleet. The Klingons had a fleet. The Dominion had a bigger fleet. They met, they clashed, and Federation and Klingons combined were able to force the Dominion fleet back. How wasn't really that important, and it is kind of assumed that however it was done, it accounted for space being in three-dimensions.

I get that Star Trek sometimes forgot about it (Voyager in particular), but it's not an unfailing mistake of the series.

[comicshorse]

I had the same problem when they had to "break through the lines" of the Dominion fleet when they went to re-take DS9. It seems to be that defending 3D space from incursion is absurdly difficult when you're at a distance from your objective. There's just too much room to maneuver around.

But the Dominion 'line' wasn't formed by a static emplacement but by a fleet of there own. As soon as the Federation ships entered sensor range the Dominion fleet would have moved to intercept it. They couldn't move around the Dominion defence because it moved with them

[Deadmeat.GW]

That is correct. And it's something the writers (of both the RPG's and the shows) forgot from time to time when it was convenient.

And I don't think a few millenia is enough time to substantially alter evolution to that extent, but I may be mistaken.

Actually...think about it like this...

A year in space and the people returning were substantially weakened, even after they were on a special diet to not loose calcium from their bones and they did exercises every day...

The issue I have is that the 2g+ planet the Vulcans live on and their spaceships with artificial gravity do not seem to inconvenience humans very much when they visit...

As for the Romulans, in general the Romulans are played by slightly shorter actors then the Vulcans which is one of the reasons .

[Thrawn183]

The Vulcans and the Klingons are actually why Star Trek Enterprise is my favorite of the shows. There is a lot of nuance added to the Vulcans, and there is discussion about how the Klingons aren't all warriors.

It managed to make members of other species interesting on a character level like DS 9 did, but did it with species I actually cared about rather than the Cardassians (as cool as Garrick was.)

[Ravens_cry]

The Vulcans and the Klingons are actually why Star Trek Enterprise is my favorite of the shows. There is a lot of nuance added to the Vulcans, and there is discussion about how the Klingons aren't all warriors.

It managed to make members of other species interesting on a character level like DS 9 did, but did it with species I actually cared about rather than the Cardassians (as cool as Garrick was.)

That didn't redeem it all the way for me, but yeah, I liked, mostly how Vulcan's were represented, and, like in Star Trek VI, the Klingon's as more than a warrior race and a not half-decent Watsonian explanation for smooth verses rough.