[4.0] Insults intelligence.

[Yora]

I think it really helps. I really don't get anything from a stat block. But a generic fluff text is a great start where to beginn with with your own fluff.

The stat block for an aboleth doesn't help me at all how to use an aboleth in my game. Additional information, that they could be horrible creatures who enslave humanoids to serve in their underwater lairs deep in the oceans or deepest caves, and that they have knowledge about ancient times before history is a great start to begin with.
Maybe I scrap the part about oceans and I think it's implausible they reproduce by assexualy producing clones of themselves. But it's much more helpful then getting only the information that they can cast dominate person 3 times per day and have a swim speed of 60 feet.

[Starsinger]

I think it really helps. I really don't get anything from a stat block. But a generic fluff text is a great start where to beginn with with your own fluff.

The stat block for an aboleth doesn't help me at all how to use an aboleth in my game. Additional information, that they could be horrible creatures who enslave humanoids to serve in their underwater lairs deep in the oceans or deepest caves, and that they have knowledge about ancient times before history is a great start to begin with.

4e's monster lore tends to be about that useful, without being a lembas bread explanation.

[oxybe]

That's why players are not supposed to read these books.

It doesn't hurt if they do, but they should be able to handle, that the campaign will not be like it's written in a book with inspirations for GMs, how to possibly fill out their own world.

Some of the people I play with know far too much about the Monster Manual. So I long decided not to use it, at least as written. They pretty soon figure out that the tales they characters have heard about are complete fabrications of people who never meet the creatures first hand.

except that the MM has rules for monster races that player might want to use. in 3rd or 4th ed if you want to play a kobold: check the MM. they're not as fleshed out or supported as the PHB races, but they are there.

also, some players might want to try their hand at DMing, so they will naturally check out a MM to get an idea what the monsters are like. they might not in the end, but they need to make the informed decision first.

the other thing, is that they do have books with ecologies, ect... Draconomicon, Open Grave, ect... these are books (which i call monsternomicons) that focus on that particular type of monster and can go in-depth.

monster manuals are just that... manuals. they books full of premade critters for players to interact with as the GM sees fit.

a monsternomicon focuses on a section of those critters and goes further in depth with fluff + extra crunch for people who want it.

that's the reason i bought the 3.5 libris mortis, draconomicon & lords of madness, as well as the 4th ed Open Grave... i sometimes like having some extra fluff to draw inspiration from, but i would rather it all be found in one book, instead of strewn across several and taking up space that could be better used.

[Matthew]

A rose by any other name. Naming differences aren't the issue here. The fact that Armour Class combines (in all discussed editions):

Bonuses from armour
Bonuses from agility
Bonuses from magic
Miscellaneous other Bonuses

Shows that regardless of what you call it, what it actually IS, is a measure of a character's ability to dodge/block/parry or otherwise avoid being hit.

In other words, whether it's called armor class or defense rating, it IS a rating of the character's defense.

So thank you. I now have a point.

On what basis do you conclude that armour class is a number to be overcome when in fact it only is in D20? That is purely subjective on your part. In Chainmail, for instance, Armour Class is a number cross referenced against Weapon Class to find the probability of a kill on the man to man melee table.

Armour classification is just that, the class of armour. You add it to the attack roll (or deduct it from THAC0 if you prefer). This is the sort of statement that leads me to infer that you are are unfamiliar with the design approach of AD&D, in that you are imposing the conceits of D20 onto the game system and coming to an erroneous conclusion.

The above list of bonuses makes no case at all. These are all modifiers to the attack roll and not bonuses to a number to be overcome.

I think it really helps. I really don't get anything from a stat block. But a generic fluff text is a great start where to beginn with with your own fluff.

The stat block for an aboleth doesn't help me at all how to use an aboleth in my game. Additional information, that they could be horrible creatures who enslave humanoids to serve in their underwater lairs deep in the oceans or deepest caves, and that they have knowledge about ancient times before history is a great start to begin with.

Maybe I scrap the part about oceans and I think it's implausible they reproduce by assexualy producing clones of themselves. But it's much more helpful then getting only the information that they can cast dominate person 3 times per day and have a swim speed of 60 feet.

The "tool box" approach definitely has its merits, and it's one of the reasons that I actually thought that the D20/4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Book was a well put together product. The problem is that this does not match up to the "out of the box" approach, where the game is complete and ready to go. A lot of people prefer D&D to be the latter, rather than the former. It's a kind of play style clash.

[Talic]

On what basis do you conclude that armour class is a number to be overcome when in fact it only is in D20? That is purely subjective on your part. Armour classification is just that, the class of armour. You add it to the attack roll (or deduct it from THAC0 if you prefer). This is the sort of statement that leads me to infer that you are are unfamiliar with AD&D, in that you are imposing the conceits of D20 onto the game system and coming to an erroneous conclusion.

The above list of bonuses makes no case at all. These are all modifiers to the attack roll and not bonuses to a number to be overcome.

No, they're not.

Let's say I have a suit of armor. It's magical +1.
There's a bonus to AC from armor.
There's a bonus to AC from magic.
Now let's say I have an 18 dexterity.
There's a bonus to AC from agility.

All three of these apply in both 2ed and 3ed (and 4ed).
So NO. Armor Class is not just your class of armor. It also factors in your ability to dodge, at the very least.

So it's more.
In other words, your assertation is incorrect. Because Armor Class is NOT "just that". Because your dexterity is not armor, even though it modifies armor class. Armor Class is an abstract concept, representing how hard you are to hit.

I thank you again, for my point.

[Matthew]

No, they're not.

Let's say I have a suit of armor. It's magical +1.
There's a bonus to AC from armor.
There's a bonus to AC from magic.
Now let's say I have an 18 dexterity.
There's a bonus to AC from agility.

All three of these apply in both 2ed and 3ed (and 4ed).
So NO. Armor Class is not just your class of armor. It also factors in your ability to dodge, at the very least.

That is actually wrong. Magic and dexterity do not give a bonus to armour class, they impose negative penalties on the attack roll. You can roll them into armour class (which is commonly done), but that is not the actual armour class (which is a number in AD&D used to find bonuses to hit versus weapon type).

So it's more.
In other words, your assertion is incorrect. Because Armor Class is NOT "just that". Because your dexterity is not armor, even though it modifies armor class. Armor Class is an abstract concept, representing how hard you are to hit.

I thank you again, for my point.

Yeah, it is just that. The "modified" armour class is a short handed rolling up of bonuses and penalties to make the game go more quickly, but armour class is literally class of armour.

[AstralFire]

Wow. Peeps are still argizzling about thisiznit? Word.
I'm not sure why I decided to word my first post on this side of the forums in a half year like that.

[Talic]

That is actually wrong. Magic and dexterity do not give a bonus to armour class, they impose negative penalties on the attack roll. You can roll them into armour class (which is commonly done), but that is not the actual armour class (which is a number in AD&D used to find bonuses to hit versus weapon type).


Yeah, it is just that. The "modified" armour class is a short handed rolling up of bonuses and penalties to make the game go more quickly, but armour class is literally class of armour.

Incorrect. AGAIN. AC is a number. A Classification of armor? Then why did the AD&D tarrasque (who, as far as I can tell, was not wearing chain greaves) sport a -10?

No. Direct from the owners of the game:

Armor Class

A number representing a creature's ability to avoid being hit in combat.

That's not the Classification of armor. No, Armor class was a derived term, true. But not from AD&D. No. It was from a tactical Civil War naval combat game, when it actually did represent how well armored ships were.

But it means something different. Don't like that? Sorry. But the people who make the game disagree with you.

You're wrong.

[Xallace]

Wow. Peeps are still argizzling about thisiznit? Word.
I'm not sure why I decided to word my first post on this side of the forums in a half year like that.

Lightened the mood for me at least!


Now on the Monster Manual subject, I do have to say that I really preferred having more fluff with my monsters- I don't mean as detailed as Draconomicon or Libris Mortis, but you know, 3.5 Monster Manual. I usually ended up disregarding it anyway, but it was fun to read and I could take a little inspiration from it if need be.

[Kaiyanwang]

4th edition phane here

3rd edition phane here

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed to me that they considered me too dumb to play the second one.

More, as someone say, the arrogance of the preview books is outstandig. My attitude toward the edition went worse and worse page by page.

Great advertisement campaing, Wotc (as always).

About THAC0: I was more or less 9 when I've seen thac0 first time. It occured like 5 minutes to understand. Just to say.

[Matthew]

Incorrect. AGAIN. AC is a number. A Classification of armor? Then why did the AD&D tarrasque (who, as far as I can tell, was not wearing chain greaves) sport a -10?

No. Direct from the owners of the game:

That's not the Classification of armor. No, Armor class was a derived term, true. But not from AD&D. No. It was from a tactical Civil War naval combat game, when it actually did represent how well armored ships were.

Wrong, I am afraid. Armour Class is right there in Chainmail, but reversed so that higher is better. Arneson is reported to have taken inspiration from the Naval game, but armour class was already part of the Chainmail Combat system. There is a reason that hit charts in OD&D only go down to AC 2 despite the presence of magic items.

But it means something different. Don't like that? Sorry. But the people who make the game disagree with you.

You're wrong.

Nope, the charts were extended in AD&D (and in Greyhawk) for ease of play, but the actual "rolling up" process is not armour class in its primary sense, though "armour class" is used to denote the secondary meaning in almost all short handed instances. The difference is important when you are dealing with the repeating "20" rule or when using weapon type versus armour class.

Wow. Peeps are still argizzling about thisiznit? Word.
I'm not sure why I decided to word my first post on this side of the forums in a half year like that.

Of course!

[Talic]

Wrong, I am afraid. Armour Class is right there in Chainmail, but reversed so that higher is better. Arneson is reported to have taken inspiration from the Naval game, but armour class was already part of the Chainmail Combat system. There is a reason that hit charts in OD&D only go down to AC 2.


Nope, the charts were extended in AD&D (and in Greyhawk) for ease of play, but the actual "rolling up" process is not armour class in its primary sense, though "armour class" is used to denote the secondary meaning in almost all instances. The difference is important when you are dealing with the repeating "20" rule.

I can't believe it. I show you verbatim word for word, from the owners of the game, text that directly contradicts you... And you STILL refuse to see it!?

Yeah, I'm done here. Have fun with your... Well, with whatever it is you do.

[Matthew]

I can't believe it. I show you verbatim word for word, from the owners of the game, text that directly contradicts you... And you STILL refuse to see it!?

Yeah, I'm done here. Have fun with your... Well, with whatever it is you do.

Here is the original wording:

Monsters & Treasure, p. 31:

ARMOR: Armor proper subtracts its bonus [Note: here we are talking magical bonus] from the hit dice of the opponents of its wearer. If the shield's bonus is greater than that of the armor there is a one third chance that the blow will be caught by the shield, thus giving the additional subtraction.

My note for your ease of comprehension.

[Talic]

That notes armor. Not armor class.

Show me some sort of specific text that states that Armor Class only measures the effectiveness of the armor that is worn, and counts in no other factors, or retract your point.

[Kaiyanwang]

Er...

Maybe could be better a thread about THAC0? The current one seems to me slightly derailed..

[Matthew]

Er...

Maybe could be better a thread about THAC0? The current one seems to me slightly derailed...

Yeah, if I had known it was going to go on so long, I would have started a new thread. I will ask a moderator if he would mind splitting this discussion off.

[Roland St. Jude]

Yeah, if I had known it was going to go on so long, I would have started a new thread. I will ask a moderator if he would mind splitting this discussion off.

I took a look at it, but that seems to be more difficult than it initially appears. Please feel free to start a new thread on it and let this thread get back to its prior topic.

[Matthew]

Okay, thanks Roland. New thread started: Why THAC0?.

[oxybe]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed to me that they considered me too dumb to play the second one.

only if you don't consider the fact that the 3.5 version was meant to be a challenge to a full epic level 3rd ed party while the 4th ed is supposed to be equivalent to 2 PCs. the monsters fulfill different roles for different editions.

also note that 3rd ed epic is generally considered much stronger then 4th ed epic, so monsters had to have more abilities, especially if they wanted to try to keep up with the casters.

[Artanis]

4th edition phane here

3rd edition phane here

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed to me that they considered me too dumb to play the second one.

I personally never saw it that way. I can understand why you would feel that way, and respect it. But I'm feeling talkative and am going to explain my point of view anyways

When I look at the two stat blocks, I don't see the 4e version as being dumbed-down, I see the 3e version as being bloated with redundany and stuff that doesn't apply to 4e.

Taking out all the stuff that can't even be translated to 4e, you already trim it down to:

Spoiler

Show

Size/Type: Large Outsider (Extraplanar)
Health: 612 hp
Initiative: +11 (+7 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 80 ft., fly 120 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 50
Attack: Incorporeal +43 (1d6 plus stasis touch) melee
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, stasis touch, chronal blast, time leach, summon past time duplicate
Special Qualities: Abomination traits, null time field, time regression, fast healing 15, DR 15/epic, sonic immunity
Saves (NADs): Fort +31, Ref +29, Will +29
Abilities: Str —, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 24, Wis 16, Cha 33
Skills: Trained in Perception
Feats: Alertness, Dodge, Great fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (incorporeal touch), Epic Toughness (x2), Epic Will, Spell Stowaway (time stop)
Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 25
Treasure: None

Spell-Like-
At will—detect magic, greater invisibility (self only);
5/day—slow, greater teleport, tongues, trap the soul, true strike, unholy aura;
2/day—safe time, time duplicate (epic spell);
1/day—time stop.

Stasis Touch : As temporal stasis, except as an at-will

Chronal Blast: As a standard action, the phane can make a ranged attack against any creature within 100 feet. If it succeeds, the subject is targeted by a spasm of space-time flux, dealing 15d6 points of damage.

Time Leach: For every round of apparent time experienced by the phane, it automatically absorbs the “future” from any creature it has successfully encapsulated in static time via its stasis touch (not its null time field), no matter the distance separating victim and phane, and no matter the number of victims. Of course, to the victim no time passes at all, but each apparent round experienced by the phane ages the victim 1d4 years, at the same time healing the phane of 20 hit points of damage. A victim who is not somehow released from static time by a friend who can cast dispel magic, greater dispell magic, or some other likely spell, eventually ages to death. Victims killed in this manner automatically fall out of static time as desiccated husks that disintegrate to a fine dust with even the lightest touch.

Summon Past Time Duplicate: Once per day, a phane can summon a duplicate of one its foes stolen from a parallel alternate past. The stolen time duplicate has the same stats and possessions as the original, but is treated as if having two Energy Drains (which simulates a less experienced version of the original). The past time duplicate, despite having most of the knowledge of the original, serves the phane loyally like any summoned creature. If the past time duplicate is slain, the original is not harmed because the duplicate was pulled from a parallel past. However, the original does not necessarily realize this, and must make a Will save (DC 30) or be shaken for 1d4 rounds after witnessing the death of a duplicate for the first time.

Abomination Traits: Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks; not subject to Energy Drain; immune to mind-affecting effects; fire resistance 20; cold resistance 20; nondetection; true seeing at will; blindsight 500 ft.; telepathy out to 1,000 ft.

Null Time Field: Phanes continually generate a 30-foot-radius spread null time field. All creatures and objects in the field, except the phane, must make a Will saving throw (DC 30) each round to take any actions. On a failed save, subjects are stuck in a static time stream until their next round of actions, at which time they must make another saving throw. While a subject is stuck in a static time stream induced by a null time field, the phane can use its static touch on the subject, though in all other ways, the subject is invulnerable to attacks and damage as if in temporal stasis.

Time Regression: If the phane spends an action per round for four rounds, at the end of the 4th round the phane regresses back in time 4 rounds, to the very 1st round it originally began concentrating on time regression. On its second pass through the time stream, it can take completely different actions, based on its knowledge of the future (though if it takes different actions from its first pass through the time stream, the events of the original time stream are also changed).

Now we're on to the redundant stuff. For example, it lists Improved Initiative in two different places. It's ALREADY included in the Phane's init count, so why do we have to know it?

Cutting out utterly pointless c*** further brings the stat block to:

Spoiler

Show

Size/Type: Large Abomination (Extraplanar)
Health: 612 hp
Initiative: +11
Speed: 80 ft., fly 120 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 50
Attack: Incorporeal +43 (1d6 plus stasis touch) melee
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: See below
Special Qualities: See below, fast healing 15, DR 15/epic, sonic immunity
Saves (NADs): Fort +31, Ref +29, Will +29
Abilities: Str —, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 24, Wis 16, Cha 33
Skills: Trained in Perception
Feats: Dodge, Spell Stowaway (time stop)
Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 25
Treasure: None


Spell-Like-
At will—detect magic, greater invisibility (self only);
5/day—haste, slow, greater teleport, tongues, trap the soul, true strike, unholy aura;
2/day—safe time, time duplicate (epic spell);
1/day—time stop.

Stasis Touch: As temporal stasis, except as an at-will

Chronal Blast: As a standard action, the phane can make a ranged attack against any creature within 100 feet. If it succeeds, the subject is targeted by a spasm of space-time flux, dealing 15d6 points of damage.

Time Leach: For every round of apparent time experienced by the phane, it automatically absorbs the “future” from any creature it has successfully encapsulated in static time via its stasis touch (not its null time field), no matter the distance separating victim and phane, and no matter the number of victims. Of course, to the victim no time passes at all, but each apparent round experienced by the phane ages the victim 1d4 years, at the same time healing the phane of 20 hit points of damage. A victim who is not somehow released from static time by a friend who can cast dispel magic, greater dispell magic, or some other likely spell, eventually ages to death. Victims killed in this manner automatically fall out of static time as desiccated husks that disintegrate to a fine dust with even the lightest touch.

Summon Past Time Duplicate: Once per day, a phane can summon a duplicate of one its foes stolen from a parallel alternate past. The stolen time duplicate has the same stats and possessions as the original, but is treated as if having two Energy Drains (which simulates a less experienced version of the original). The past time duplicate, despite having most of the knowledge of the original, serves the phane loyally like any summoned creature. If the past time duplicate is slain, the original is not harmed because the duplicate was pulled from a parallel past. However, the original does not necessarily realize this, and must make a Will save (DC 30) or be shaken for 1d4 rounds after witnessing the death of a duplicate for the first time.

Abomination Traits: Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks; not subject to Energy Drain; immune to mind-affecting effects; fire resistance 20; cold resistance 20; nondetection; true seeing at will; blindsight 500 ft.; telepathy out to 1,000 ft.

Null Time Field: Phanes continually generate a 30-foot-radius spread null time field. All creatures and objects in the field, except the phane, must make a Will saving throw (DC 30) each round to take any actions. While a subject is stuck in a static time stream induced by a null time field, the phane can use its static touch on the subject, though in all other ways, the subject is invulnerable to attacks and damage as if in temporal stasis.

Time Regression: If the phane spends an action per round for four rounds, at the end of the 4th round the phane regresses back in time 4 rounds, to the very 1st round it originally began concentrating on time regression. On its second pass through the time stream, it can take completely different actions, based on its knowledge of the future (though if it takes different actions from its first pass through the time stream, the events of the original time stream are also changed).

Finally, let's move all the fluff out of the stat block. The fluff is still there, it simply isn't cluttering things. If you consider it "dumbing down" to simply rearrange things so that the exact same information is easier to read, there's nothing I can really say. But I, personally, think that the same amount of information being easier to read is far from "dumbing down", it's just making things more convenient. Kinda like putting the descriptions of alignment all in one place instead of in everything that references them.

So, the fluff is still all there, but simply not cluttering up the information that the DM needs to find:

Spoiler

Show

Size/Type: Large Abomination (Extraplanar)
Health: 612 hp
Initiative: +11
Speed: 80 ft., fly 120 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 50
Attack: Incorporeal +43 (1d6 plus stasis touch) melee
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: See below
Special Qualities: See below, fast healing 15, DR 15/epic, sonic immunity
Saves (NADs): Fort +31, Ref +29, Will +29
Abilities: Str —, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 24, Wis 16, Cha 33
Skills: Trained in Perception
Feats: Dodge, Blinding Speed, Spell Stowaway (time stop)
Challenge Rating: 25


Spell-Like-
At will—detect magic, greater invisibility (self only);
5/day—haste, slow, greater teleport, tongues, trap the soul, true strike, unholy aura;
2/day—safe time, time duplicate (epic spell);
1/day—time stop.

Stasis Touch: As temporal stasis, except as an at-will

Chronal Blast: As a standard action, the phane can make a ranged attack against any creature within 100 feet. If it succeeds it deals 15d6 damage.

Time Leach: Each creature hit by the Phane's Stasis Touch ages 1d4 years per round, at the same time healing the Phane for 20hp. Victims can be freed by spells such as Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, etc., and suffer the physical (but not mental) effects of aging. Victims who are not freed age to death.

Summon Past Time Duplicate: Once per day, a phane can summon a duplicate of one its foes. The stolen time duplicate has the same stats and possessions as the original, but is treated as if having two Energy Drains. The past time duplicate serves the phane loyally like any summoned creature. If the past time duplicate is slain, the original must make a DC30 Will Save or be shaken for 1d4 rounds, but is otherwise unaffected.

Abomination Traits: Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks; not subject to Energy Drain; immune to mind-affecting effects; fire resistance 20; cold resistance 20; nondetection; true seeing at will; blindsight 500 ft.; telepathy out to 1,000 ft.

Null Time Field: Phanes continually generate a 30-foot-radius spread null time field. All creatures and objects in the field, except the phane, must make a Will saving throw (DC 30) each round to take any actions. While a subject is stuck in a static time stream induced by a null time field, the phane can use its static touch on the subject, though in all other ways, the subject is invulnerable to attacks and damage as if in temporal stasis.

Time Regression: If the phane spends an action per round for four rounds, at the end of the 4th round the phane regresses back in time 4 rounds, to the very 1st round it originally began concentrating on time regression. On its second pass through the time stream, it can take completely different actions.

So, we've rearranged and trimmed down irrelevant and redundant stuff. Nothing is dumbed down: every single bit of information that can translate to 4e is still there. Every. Single. Word. So, what would a 4e stat block look like for the 3e version of this creature, using the exact same numbers where possible?

Spoiler

Show

PHANE.................Level 25 Elite Controller
Large Immortal Magical Beast
Initiative +11........Senses: Perception +44; darkvision; Blindsight
HP 612; Bloodied 306
AC 51; Fortitude 41; Reflex 39; Will 39 (Note: 4e's NADs are basically the related save +10)
Immune: mind-affecting, polymorph, petrification, thunder; Resist: insubstantial, variable 20, all 15
Saving Throws +2
Speed 10, fly 10
Action Points 1

POWERS:
Basic Attack: (standard; at-will)
*Reach 2; +43 vs. AC; 1d6 damage, and make a secondary attack
**Secondary attack: +29 vs. FORT; The target is unconscious and immune to all attacks until a Dispel Magic (or similar) ritual is used on it. The Phane heals 20hp per turn for each enemy under this effect.
*Special: Ignores Resist Incorporeal

Chronal Blast: (Standard; at-will)
*Ranged 20; +43 vs. REF; 15d6 damage
*Special: This attack does not provoke opportunity attacks

Summon Past Time Duplicate: (standard; daily) (summoning)
*The Phane summons a duplicate of one target enemy with the enemy's stats, abilities, etc. except that it has -1 to attacks and all defenses and -12 maximum hp. If the duplicate is slain, the Phane may make an attack against the original as a free action:
*+30 vs. Will; Target takes -2 to all attacks, defenses, skill checks, and ability checks for 1d4 rounds

Null Time Field: (free; at-will)
*Close Burst 6; +30 vs. Will; Target is stunned
*Special: the Phane can only use this power once per round

Time Duplicate: (free; 2/day)
*The Phane may take an extra turn after this, but skips its next turn

Time Regression:
...OK, I can't quite figure out how the HELL this power works in 3.5, much less how to translate it, so I'm skipping its translation

True Strike: (Minor; 5/day)
*The Phane's next attack gets a +20 bonus

Unholy Aura: (Standard; 5/day)
*The Phane gets a +4 bonus to all defenses

Slow: (Standard; 5/day)
*Ranged 17; +43 vs Will; target is slowed and dazed
*Effect: make this attack up to 11 more times against targets that are both within range and within 6 of the original target

Greater Invisibility: (Standard; at-will)
*The Phane becomes invisible

Time Stop: (Minor; recharge: somebody else uses Time Stop)
*As the Wizard power


Rituals:
Greater Teleport, Tongues, Detect Magic, Safe Time

Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Str - ( - )......Dex 25 (+19)...Wis 16 (+15)
Con 28 (+21)...Int 24 (+19)...Cha 33 (+23)

So as you can see, the only difference is in the powers list: the 3e version's is longer, but (and this is important) the 4e excerpt version's has stuff that's both more interesting and, in large part, more complicated. Plus there's stuff on the 3e's list that, while technically translatable, would never actually be done (such as True Strike).



Edit: *grumble* stupid formatting

[shadzar]

okay no offence guys but this is a thread about whether or not 4.0 insults your intelligence. not how intuitive or otherwise THACO is. however to offer my personal opinion it doesn't make much sense.

Since 4th changed many system, and to some the way the systems changed was insulting you have to look back at the other system to denote why the change is insulting. Even though 4th was not the direct reason for the change of THAC0 to a new system, it is compared along with the 3.x and 4th systems to show that all of those systems are the same math, so there is nothing intuitive about it save for saying, you were too dumb to do math with THAC0, and BAB was too hard for you too, so here is 4th edition way of doing it much simpler!

That is the insult.

(See all THAC0 discussing people in the new thread.)

[satorian]

I won't speak to the rules themselves being dumbed down, though I do tend to side with the complexity-is-good and verisimilitude-is-immersion-is-good camps. For me, the issue is the writing style and content. I started with AD&D at around age 9. I remember very fondly looking up all these new words I was learning (for some reason "bastion" always sticks in my head, as does "penultimate"). I picked up legends and lore, and loved learning bits about real world mythologies. I then followed this by reading the holy books and collected myths I had only learned bits and pieces about. I became obsessed with Sumerian, bablylonian and Egyptian culture, literature, magic beliefs, etc. D&D is largely responsible for my interest in two of my college majors, anthropology and religion. I'm sure it inspired aother to become historians. It wasn't so much that the early editions assumed a greater knowledge base or intelligence in the player, only that it assumed a greater curiosity. D&D taught me. I don't see the new books doing that for this generation. In that sense, it is dumbed down.

[kjones]

To throw some new fuel on the fire, here's how 4e insults my intelligence: Luke Nounverber.

Opening up my MM to some random page:

Godforged Colossus

Some other random page:

Cacklefiend Hyena

Let's look at kobolds:
Kobold Wyrmpriest, Dragonshield, Slyblade

It just smacks of laziness on their part - right up there with the Shadowdark and the Darkbad.

[Artanis]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

[oxybe]

it should be noted that gygax loved words. he made sure his prose was in his works, be it a rulebook or module. for him (IMO) it was a way to add a personal flair and a certain style to it.

in the end years of 2nd ed and throughout 3rd, there does seem to be a movement by the devs and the editing teams to turn a rulebook into a more cut-and-dry book of rules.

the current 4th ed books that read very much like a manual, is because they want to make it as clear as possible to the reader, so it is admittingly a bit dry.

also: my next dwarf? so going to be Jorgan Von Nounverber, bard and bad fiction writer.

[jseah]

They also removed all the interesting and cool abilities.

You can't walk through walls, fly or do any of the really fun stuff that 3.5E allowed.

Granted, they were powerful when used properly and made wizards the insanely powerful character it is in 3.5e. The solution is to give access to it to everyone, not take it away... -.-

[RTGoodman]

They also removed all the interesting and cool abilities.

That's entirely subjective. I think there's plenty of interesting and cool stuff in 4E.

You can't walk through walls, fly or do any of the really fun stuff that 3.5E allowed.

That's not really true. There are ways to fly, both limited (most powers) and unlimited (at least one Epic magic item), and the ability to walk through walls, otherwise known as Phasing in 4E, is, as far as I know, something PCs have access to. I don't know specific examples off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure I've seen it as a power somewhere or maybe a magic item.

The solution is to give access to it to everyone, not take it away... -.-

Yeah, THAT's a good idea. We already have enough people complaining that everyone in 4E is a Wizard because of the Powers system.

[RebelRogue]

They also removed all the interesting and cool abilities.

You can't walk through walls, fly or do any of the really fun stuff that 3.5E allowed.

Sure you can, they're just generally available at higher levels than in 3.5. For instance, Fly is a level 16 Wizard Utility Power.

[shadzar]

Sure you can, they're just generally available at higher levels than in 3.5. For instance, Fly is a level 16 Wizard Utility Power.

Which causes another problem that is insulting in telling people WHEN something is fun to do.

Over halfway into your career before you can fly around? And you can only do it for short terms equal to the length of part of a fight.

I don't just want to play a tactical miniature game, but I must have been playing my RPG wrong for nearly 30 years because it was always supposed to be one, and that is why the miniature wargamers that made it was trying to make something new besides a tactical miniature wargame, or a miniature game where you re-enact battles.

I guess we was all just dumb and didn't knows what we was really wanting to play. Ha-yuk.



The did in fact take creativity of the players away because the players couldn't handle their own imagination without breaking the purty little game balance.

There is no excuse for Fly as it is. It is also telling players where they MUST allow certain things in the games. How would you add flight into the game without some silly AV item/ship and not break the entire Fly spell as is? You can't.

Fly is so weak as it is for the level, you couldn't add it at any lower level without making a superior power for a lower level, or a flat out useless power.

[oxybe]

how is them telling you "you can fly at level 16" different from "you can fly at level 5" ? either way they're arbitrarily telling you when you can do it, the only difference is in 4th ed you get it half way through your career instead of a quarter of the way.

as for duration it's generally 5 minutes or until end of encounter. as opposed to 1 min./level? unless you were "dungeon-crashing" at a high speed, 1 min/level only mattered at the higher end of the game, otherwise, in my experience, such an effect lasted until the end of encounter or until we finish doing "X".

flight, as a spell, rarely lasted 2 encounters when you get it unless you're in an area where you fight>fight>fight>fight all in a row, repeatedly, without much time for a breather. in 4th ed, this would mean one big encounter. so your flight spell would keep going until the end anyways.

the first really truly powerful 3rd ed flight spell, Overland Flight, is in 4th ed, as an end-paragon ritual that lasts for 10 hours per use. you get overland halfway through your 3rd ed career and 2/3rds of the way in your 4th ed one. a decent int based caster can get a phantom steed via ritual and cranking that arcana skill up isn't too hard to get the flying one through a check of 40+(i know that i can get a 30ish easy at level 10).

although Fly is level 16, but Warlocks have combat flight at level 10 (Shadow Form), Druids and Sorcerers get limited flight at level 6. several items (magic carpet & ebony fly) & mounts also allow it.

extended un-aided flight for prolonged times isn't something i find too often in books or stories, so i guess it doesn't bug me so much