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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e.

    Pretty much what most of the above have said. The Rogue class hasn't been the thief class in a long time. While thieves are usually rogues, the rogue archetype is simply the adventurer that accomplishes things with skill, finesse and creativity instead of brute force (barbarian/fighter), divine intervention (druid, cleric, paladin) or magic (sorcerer, warlock, wizard).

    If you don't want to be a thief, take the noble background and go with the gentleman adventurer.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    Pretty much what most of the above have said. The Rogue class hasn't been the thief class in a long time. While thieves are usually rogues, the rogue archetype is simply the adventurer that accomplishes things with skill, finesse and creativity instead of brute force (barbarian/fighter), divine intervention (druid, cleric, paladin) or magic (sorcerer, warlock, wizard).

    If you don't want to be a thief, take the noble background and go with the gentleman adventurer.
    And if you do want to be a thief, you don't have to be a Rogue. We have a Dex-based fighter with the criminal background in our party who is always pickpocketing NPCs and generally being sneaky. Everyone is always surprised when they are reminded that she is, in fact, a fighter and not a rogue.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    warmachine's Avatar

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    Default Re: Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e.

    Joy is a subjective term, so you'd get better answers if you expanded on what you considered joyous. Nonetheless, playing martial classes suggests you don't do resource management. Not a problem for Rogue, pretty much all abilities, except Arcane Trickster spells, are at-will and no resource tracking.

    If you have the following attitudes, how Rogue can be joyous.
    • Combat slaying - Sneak Attack is good and Cunning Action, Evasion and Uncanny Dodge means the enemy have trouble dealing with you but you're a glass cannon. Joyous if you like opportunity striking but not if you want to be an unstoppable tank.
    • Combat tactics - Zip around the battlefield like a roadrunner and stab that enemy mage but most other classes have better battlefield control options. Not joyous.
    • Mission driving - Lots of skill and tool proficiencies with Expertise. Joyous, especially for scouting.
    • Party support - No resources. Not joyous.
    • Impressive stunts - Has skills and Expertise but I've seen Monks do better. Still joyous.
    Matthew Greet
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    2D8HP's Avatar

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    Default Re: Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolAlias View Post
    And if you do want to be a thief, you don't have to be a Rogue. We have a Dex-based fighter with the criminal background in our party who is always pickpocketing NPCs and generally being sneaky. Everyone is always surprised when they are reminded that she is, in fact, a fighter and not a rogue.
    High Elf (Cantrip, Longsword, Longbow proficiency), with Charlatan, Criminal, or Urchin background is like an old D&D Fighter/Magic-User/Thief, without even picking a class yet!

    Use the SCAG variant, and you can play a Half-elf but still have the Cantrip or the weapon proficiencies!

    What's not to like?

    I really don't understand some Playgrounders complaints that "5e doesn't have enough options".

    There seem to be plenty of AWESOME options to me!

    Noble background Elf or SCAG Half-Elf, Rogue class = Skilled, with sweet starting gold, and able to shoot fire out of fingertips!

    Hot damn!
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    Does the game you play feature a Dragon sitting on a pile of treasure, in a Dungeon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    You're an NPC stat block."I remember when your race was your class you damned whippersnappers"
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  5. - Top - End - #35
    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    High Elf (Cantrip, Longsword, Longbow proficiency), with Charlatan, Criminal, or Urchin background is like an old D&D Fighter/Magic-User/Thief, without even picking a class yet!
    And if you're really old-school, you wouldn't pick a class and you'd just level up as Elf. :D

    I totally agree about 5e - backgrounds are a really nice way to make your character much more than just their class. I do wish some of the classes / subclasses were designed a little differently, but a little re-fluffing goes a long way in 5e.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolAlias View Post
    And if you're really old-school, you wouldn't pick a class and you'd just level up as Elf. :D.
    You are aware that elf-as-class was introduced in B/X in 1981, a full 7 years after D&D was first published, and a good 4 years after the iconic AD&D F/M/T, right?
    Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2017-07-05 at 01:49 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    You are aware that elf-as-class was introduced in B/X in 1981, a full 7 years after D&D was first published, and a good 4 years after the iconic AD&D F/M/T, right?
    Nah, I only got into it in AD&D 2e, so anything before that is super old-school to me. :P

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    2D8HP's Avatar

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    Default Re: Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    You are aware that elf-as-class was introduced in B/X in 1981, a full 7 years after D&D was first published, and a good 4 years after the iconic AD&D F/M/T, right?
    Ah but the 1975 Greyhawk supplement that introduced the Thief class had Elves either be Fighter/Magic-User/Thieves or single class as Thieves (previously they could alternate as Fighters or Magic-Users, but had to decide which at the beginning of the adventure).

    A sweet part of the Thief was that they were no level limits for non-humans (remember those?).
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    Does the game you play feature a Dragon sitting on a pile of treasure, in a Dungeon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    You're an NPC stat block."I remember when your race was your class you damned whippersnappers"
    Snazzy Avatar by Honest Tiefling!

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolAlias View Post
    Nah, I only got into it in AD&D 2e, so anything before that is super old-school to me. :P
    Well, that's fine, it's not a competition, but then trying to out-old-school 2d8 seems silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP
    High Elf (Cantrip, Longsword, Longbow proficiency), with Charlatan, Criminal, or Urchin background is like an old D&D Fighter/Magic-User/Thief, without even picking a class yet!
    Ooh, cleric!... but was type?

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Banned
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I really don't understand some Playgrounders complaints that "5e doesn't have enough options".

    There seem to be plenty of AWESOME options to me!
    Did you play 3.5, where you had 18 ways to play the same concept, each with different mechanics? Incarnum, Spellcasting (Divine or Arcane), Initiator Psionic Mind Control to hide from others, Magic to make yourself Invisible, Spell Stealing, Polymorphing, Trapmaking, Shadow Pouncing, Undead/Plant/Construct Killing, Iaijutsu, Sudden Strike or Sneak Attacks.

    Sure, some were maybe even considered "trap" options and you could optomize in a better way.

    Because 5E is the same class with a few dips elsewhere to try and get something new to do. Once you've played one roll, you've played them. Except you have can maybe take Warlock for Devil's Sight, or Monk for Shadows and Teleports. And once you choose one, you are locked from the others.

    And there is no end game content. Whereas most games I played in 3.5 played best starting at 10-12. Games lower than that didn't have particularly interesting monsters and relied on swingy dice rolls.

    5e caps out at those levels. Not enough end game adventures, monsters, or gear. Not enough stuff to spent hundreds of thousands of gold on. Not enough mechanics to support a game.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Sell me on making a Rogue for 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Ah but the 1975 Greyhawk supplement that introduced the Thief class had Elves either be Fighter/Magic-User/Thieves or single class as Thieves (previously they could alternate as Fighters or Magic-Users, but had to decide which at the beginning of the adventure).

    A sweet part of the Thief was that they were no level limits for non-humans (remember those?).
    Yes, they still had those in 2e AD&D from what I remember, and whenever we got that high we typically ended up ignoring them, much to my (human) character's chagrin. :P

    I do miss the old-school multiclassing - it took forever to level up, but once you did, wow! Brings back memories of the CRPGs like Champions of Krynn.

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