Results 181 to 210 of 318
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2017-12-05, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2016
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
Yes and no, you could certainly pull it off and Dex based Paladins are pretty good. The longbow will make you competent enough at ranged fighting that you won't be sitting and twiddling my thumbs as literally everyone else does the work. X3 You'll never be as good at archery as the Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue of course, but you'll be able to do a decent 1d8+Dex Mod with every attack. Mix that with Hunter's Mark and you are closer to the Ranger's damage output.
As for close range, a Rapier is perfect for you, and you can easily wear Heavy Armor without the required strength. You'll just lose 10 feet of movement, which can be compensated for. And you will be better at Dex saves, which is always good.
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2017-12-06, 08:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
Let me ask you a question: how many jobs have you had in your life? is being a multiclass Barista/Paralegal ruining your life?
May I borrow some bat guano? It's for a spell...
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2017-12-06, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2005
- Location
- Albuquerque, NM
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
Me? I'm a straight classed accountant. Been one since 1994. I guess you could say I dipped a level of DMing - 1 level is all I've ever devoted to it; I can tell because I don't typically use handouts or have 17 different plot contingencies as DMs I've played with have... but the players enjoy the games I run (I'm a little monty-haulish, so characters tend to look like Christmas Trees even in 5E...)
Trollbait extraordinaire
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2017-12-06, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
- Gender
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2017-12-06, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2016
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
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2017-12-06, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
Most of the times when I see multi classing it is for 1 reason.
A small dip into another class fixes one of the MAJOR shortcomings of their main class.
ex. Paladins have almost no abilities at range, and lack any good bonus movement abilities to close distances over other classes.
1 or 2 levels in any casting class that gets cantrips fixes that, and it gives them more ammo for smiting than they normally get.
Many primary casters have trouble with good AC.
Because armor does not interfere with casting in 5e a small dip into a class that gets armor and shields is a huge benefit to them and they can do it with a casting class to not be behind spell levels, just spells known.
Also, most classes in 5e are front loaded with great abilities because they want people to enjoy the low levels of the game, but their mid or upper level abilities are just not as good.
When other classes have better level 1 and 2 abilities than your own high level abilities, people are going to want to multi class.
Ex. There are plenty of classes whose capstone is not even as good as the level 1 and 2 abilities of other classes.
It is a design flaw of the system, don't blame others for fixing bad classes by mixing them.
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2017-12-06, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2012
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
I find this to be half-true. It's hard to disentangle cheese from character building sometimes. Take a Barb 5/Rogue 1 grappler. Most monsters have terrible ability to contest the grapple attempts from such a specialized character, so this could be considered cheese by some. What other things would that character need to be considered "expressing their character concept"? What if they go all out and put on a luchador mask? Is the fact that they designed the mechanics before they came up with the character enough to point towards metagaming rather than character design? Is the fact that grappling isn't the strongest a factor in deciding how cheesy the character is?
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2017-12-06, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
- Gender
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
A cheesy character in my view is a character that is overly one-dimensional, and is unrivalable in one particular situation while being unable to contribute anywhere else. I don't care how the character was built, how improbable its origins or how powerful it is overall. My view here is informed by my particular DMing experience, which has mostly been running games for groups that are friends of mine and think collectively. I've had very few problems with players who want to be the Goku in a party of Yamchas.
In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
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2017-12-06, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2016
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
I don't think that a lack of Expertise or skills is a MAJOR shortcoming of a bard dipping into rogue. That is one example, in particular, that I had in mind.
ex. Paladins have almost no abilities at range, and lack any good bonus movement abilities to close distances over other classes.
1 or 2 levels in any casting class that gets cantrips fixes that, and it gives them more ammo for smiting than they normally get.
Many primary casters have trouble with good AC.
Because armor does not interfere with casting in 5e a small dip into a class that gets armor and shields is a huge benefit to them and they can do it with a casting class to not be behind spell levels, just spells known.
Also, most classes in 5e are front loaded with great abilities because they want people to enjoy the low levels of the game, but their mid or upper level abilities are just not as good.
When other classes have better level 1 and 2 abilities than your own high level abilities, people are going to want to multi class.
Ex. There are plenty of classes whose capstone is not even as good as the level 1 and 2 abilities of other classes.
It is a design flaw of the system, don't blame others for fixing bad classes by mixing them.
Yes, but IMHO "grappling" is in itself often designed as a cheese build, at least it was in 3E and 5E. I would probably disallow any character designed around grappling.
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2017-12-06, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Canada
- Gender
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
hold on - grappling is cheese? All it does is reduce movement. it locks down a single target (assuming they have no way of escaping). How is that cheese and something like banishment or force cage isn't?
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2017-12-06, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
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2017-12-06, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
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2017-12-06, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
Interesting way to put that, but I don't think that was the intent of multiclassing. (See the Grey Mouser and magical spells in Lieber's sword and sorcery stories).
On the internet, that is called "trolling" and I will offer that you earn at least a B+ for this instance of same.
Generalizations are not helpful.
Heh, that got me laughing.
It may cut down on hours for sleep.
What, do you DM for pay, or do you offer accountancy for free?Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2017-12-06, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
Uwot? Can you explain why grappling is cheese? Esp in 3.5. If you made a typo and meant to say Sense Danger, Anticipatory Strike Linked Sunchronicity Synchronicity ad infinitum, i could understand, but Grappling as a concept build was beaten by a 4th level spell called Black Tentacles in 3.5. Or Polymorph.
Casters did Grappling betterthanyoutm, without spending much more than an hours prep every day and a spell slot, as opposed to permanent resources.
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2017-12-06, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
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2017-12-06, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
Oh i know, but stil wondering how kobard has it anywhere near cheese. Nearest i can think of it arbitrary high numbers with Cancer Mage Festering Anger for a non magic dude who instead can simply gate in 5 Kraken in a round, return to a fast time trait plane, and 30 mins later adventure at full capacity.
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2017-12-06, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
- Gender
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
To be less millennially referential, my players are fine with picking a power level for the campaign and sticking with it. I've had problems with this only two times: one player was dealing with some out-of-game problems manifesting themselves as crappy behavior at the table, and one player had never played a Druid before and brought a very strong Greenbound Summoning-based character to a mostly T4 game. After the first session with the character he asked to make changes to bring it back in line with the rest of the party, felt it was still too strong after a subsequent session and turned it over to me to use as an NPC. I didn't have to get involved as a DM in either case; either the player self-policed or the group as a collective enforced the standard they were comfortable with.
In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
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2017-12-06, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2016
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
It's the interactions with an almost guaranteed Grapple Success (usually a Barbarian with either Bard or Rogue dip for advantage and expertise), with the added possibility of using the Grappler feat to restrain the enemy. It becomes cheese when the party starts using "Bear Barbarian Grapples the enemy, then everyone else piles on damage" as the solution to every problem.
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2017-12-06, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
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2017-12-06, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Canada
- Gender
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
yep. and big bads haveways of getting away. plus using grappler to restrain means you're also restrained, so it's as bad for the barb as for the enemy.
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2017-12-06, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2016
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
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2017-12-06, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
- Gender
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
Right, the solution to this isn't "this is cheese and should be removed". The solution is "the BBEG counters your predictable tactic". The boss should be dangerous for reasons other than HP and damage, and one thing that makes a boss dangerous is good tactics, including intelligence gathering.
Most players are neither stupid or malicious. If you let them know ahead of time in gentle ways that their adversaries learn from their behavior and adapt accordingly, they'll take that into consideration.
This seems to assume that: the Bearbarian and his teammates win initiative; the minions, lair powers or legendary actions do not provide meaningful obstacles; the leader is grapple-able; the positions of the leader and minions are known in advance. I'm not sure those things are going to be true more often than not, and if they are I'm not sure they should be.Last edited by QuickLyRaiNbow; 2017-12-06 at 03:29 PM.
In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
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2017-12-06, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
All it does it make them stay still, it does not make them take damage.
Also if you do what most do and shove them as part of the plan, you used 2 things that could have been attacks to knock someone down and hold them still.
It only helps those in melee range because it actually gives disadvantage to using ranged attacks agains the target.
If all your group is piling up on that one guy to get advanagate on melee attacks that makes them sitting ducks for an aoe.
Also, grappler is a trap option, it also makes the grappler restrained.
It is much less broken than things like stunning fist, hold person, and the like. all those take is one spell or ability you get anyway.
TO make a good grappler takes a whole build.
I played a grappler for quite a while, it is good but honestly it would have been just as effective if I had just punched the guy instead.
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2017-12-06, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
That's a pretty straightforward plan that depends a lot of battlefield and initiative. The barb, by himself, can do the grappling and tripping. The rest of melee have to sort of wait around until that happens.
I'm not saying that grap-piles (tee hee) aren't effective, it's just it's not always applicable or even easy to pull off, and requires you to sort of build the grappler with certain things in mind.Argue in good faith.
And try to remember that these are people.
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2017-12-06, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
Argue in good faith.
And try to remember that these are people.
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2017-12-06, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
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2017-12-06, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
Argue in good faith.
And try to remember that these are people.
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2017-12-06, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- San Francisco Bay area
- Gender
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
I'm feeling ranty, so I'm just going to say that multi-classing is not "ruining" the game for me, and the only thing about "optimizing" that I dislike is other players hassling to do it (I don't want to play a Wizard dagnabbit!).
What is getting tiresome however is that the game seems to be more and more just a conga-line of combat.
I miss:
"In the dim torchlight you see a 20' wide room with a broken chair, table, a closed chest and cobwebs leading into the darkness...."
instead of just:
"You see a Bugbear, roll initiative.... after a short rest you see a Hobgoblin, roll initiative... after a long rest you see an Ogre, roll iinitiative..."
I'd like to do some (pretend) exploring again.
Please.
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2017-12-06, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Canada
- Gender
Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?
probably best to find a better table for your expectations. Session zero. If you're playing with strangers, find out what kind of game it is first. no gaming is better than bad gaming.
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2017-12-06, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2016