Spells: What to Ban?

[ShriekingDrake]

Greetings all: We're going to be starting a new 3.5-ish campaign with all WOTC published material and my being open to proposals from the players from other sources. Our goal is to have fun, but we're also trying to give the players a chance to optimize. I know that there is a LOT that is unbalanced about 3.X, but I want to focus this particular thread on spells. I have been playing and for a long time, but don't consider myself an expert, especially on these boards.

I'd like to talk about the pre-epic spells I'm thinking of banning. I am hoping to get your thoughts about the spells I'm thinking about as well as your thoughts about the spells I may have overlooked. My own thinking around spells that should be banned is that some spells are either too unbalanced or too poorly written and also not necessary for the game. The spells I'm thinking of tend, in my mind, to be be better removed from the game than fixed.

I know that there are vehement differences of opinion about this kind of thing; I'm hoping this won't devolve into a flame war. It's OK if you disagree with me; I'd like to hear about why you do and I'd appreciate your suggestions and viewpoint. In the end, I'm trying to get a list of spells that will work for my group, but what worked or didn't work for your group will help a lot. When this thread has made its dent, I'll start a second thread about spells that ought to be altered/fixed/revamped.

OK, here we go.

Alter Self
Astral Projection
Celerity (and Lesser and Greater)
Consumptive Field (and Greater)
Contingency
Draconic Polymorph
Embrace the Dark Chaos
Energy Transformation Field
Gate
Genesis
Guidance of the Avatar
Ice Assassin
Masochism
Planar Binding line of spells
Polymorph
Polymorph Any Object
Sadism
Shapechange
Shun the Dark Chaos
Simulacrum
Time Stop
Triadspell

I know there are many spells that absent a fix should be on this list. But these spells seem unnecessary for the game or too difficult to fix. In the end, I'll discuss this list with my players in an effort to achieve consensus. For now, I'd really appreciate your advice.

Updates

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+Alter Self
+Draconic Polymorph
+Guidance of the Avatar
+Masochism
+Polymorph
+Sadism
+Simulacrum
+Shun the Dark Chaos
-Enhance Wildshape
+Energy Transformation Field
+Embrace the Dark Chaos

[Emperor Tippy]

Before you ban anything or ask for advice you need to answer a question: What do you want to achieve by banning spells? The answer to that question dictates what you ban or alter.

[Asheram]

A pre-emptive ban sets a tone for the campaign.
Just saying "Please, don't bring any cheese to the table" can sometimes be relaxing for all players.

[ShriekingDrake]

Before you ban anything or ask for advice you need to answer a question: What do you want to achieve by banning spells? The answer to that question dictates what you ban or alter.

My goal is to work out with my players spells that we will not be including in the game (and, eventually spells that we'll improve/fix) for the purpose of letting them optimize with some limits. The idea is to adjust the rules so that we'll have more fun, disagree less, and allow the players to role-play as they like with the guidelines set out up front. The fact that the authors of a particular WotC book thought a spell was a good idea or good for game play doesn't mean that it turned out that way. Myself, I think there are some spells that don't work as well as intended--some are worth fixing and others are better not included. In this thread, I'm trying to think though which spells belong on the latter list.

I'm not an imperious DM . . . I'm happy to get some agreement among my players. I like the idea of giving them a proposal and I'm asking the boards to help me think through my proposal so that it is as good a proposal as I can make it. For now, I want to explore what spells we won't be including.

(By the way, I see that I left Simulacrum off the list accidentally. I'll add it now.)

[rockdeworld]

This list might help, from the Logic Ninja's guide to being Batman:

Spoiler

Show

Stinky Cheese: spells that are broken, broken, broken.

Level 2:
-Alter Self: give yourself +6 natural armor, or flight, for 10 min/level with a level 2 spell? Like all the polymorph spells, way too good for its level--not so broken you probably shouldn't use it in a game, though. Combine with the Otherworldly feat for even more cheese.
-Wraithstrike: swift action, make all attacks as touch attacks that round. Ridiculously good for fighter-mages, Power Attack for huge amounts of damage. You can Persist it quite normally in an 8th level slot, or by using various kinds of cheese, and that's when it becomes *completely* broken.

Level 3:
-Shivering Touch (Frostburn): a touch attack, no save, 3d6 dex damage. 3d6! Dex damage! Wanna one-shot a dragon? NOOO problem! Add some kind of reach (Arcane Reach from Archmage, or Reach Spell metamagic) and you can do it from safety. For the love of god, don't resport to this.

Level 4:
-Polymorph: far better than any other spell of its level, and many higher-level spells. The things you can do with this are ridiculous. It's completely broken, so much so WotC has given up on trying to fix it. Just don't use it.
-Celerity (PHB II): this breaks casters worse than they're already broken. As an immediate action casting, gain a standard action, and be dazed on the next round. This means that no matter what, the wizard goes first. Combine with Time Stop to negate the disadvantage of being dazed in combat, or just use it to Teleport out of there or Dimension Door way out of reach.

Level 8:
-Polymorph Any Object: the worst of the lot. Turn yourself into a gold dragon and gain its INT score plus everything else? Come on. Most broken spell in the game.
-Greater Celerity (PHB II): as Celerity, but grants a full-round action.

Level 9:
-Shapechange: CL up to 25 HD monsters. Gain their (Su) special qualities and attacks as well as the (Ex) ones. Completely and utterly ridiculous, as a more powerful Polymorph of course must be. Don't use this.
-Disjunction: both DMs and players avoid it. Use it as a player and you fry the bad guy's loot; use it as a DM and your players lose their magic items and are very upset.
-Gate: so many abuses. So very many. For example, Gate in creatures that can cast Wish as a (Su) ability and make them give you free wishes.

As for the ones you've chosen:
Lesser Celerity - the lesser version isn't that bad, since it only grants a move action.
Contingency - there's nothing particularly broken about the spell, unlike the feat version. Banning this is like banning the Pheonix + Final Summon materia from FF7 - it's just so you can kill 'em.
Genesis - again, there's nothing particularly broken about this, provided you don't allow a creative interpretation of the spell. I, for one, wouldn't have thought that controlling the environment of the plane would allow you to create a flowing-time plane. Neither would I allow it based on your ability to control the atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. And at this level, if they want to create a plane whose atmosphere is on fire, that's still not broken.
Planar Binding line of spells - nothing wrong with the lesser version, the normal and greater version are only bad if you don't like free wishes.
Time Stop - Gives the caster extra time to buff. Not really broken after you've banned the other stuff like gate and planar binding.

[Slipperychicken]

A pre-emptive ban sets a tone for the campaign.
Just saying "Please, don't bring any cheese to the table" can sometimes be relaxing for all players.

Seconded. If your players are even remotely reasonable, this will be enough.

And tell your players to a) Show and explain their builds and character concepts to you (including their intended playstyle and tactics) before play and b) Receive approval for any material or tactics which may be overpowered, and sketchy-seeming rulings they wish to use.


As long as your players are willing and able to maintain a balanced game, they should be good, before extensive ban-lists.

[Emperor Tippy]

My goal is to work out with my players spells that we will not be including in the game (and, eventually spells that we'll improve/fix) for the purpose of letting them optimize with some limits. The idea is to adjust the rules so that we'll have more fun, disagree less, and allow the players to role-play as they like with the guidelines set out up front. The fact that the authors of a particular WotC book thought a spell was a good idea or good for game play doesn't mean that it turned out that way. Myself, I think there are some spells that don't work as well as intended--some are worth fixing and others are better not included. In this thread, I'm trying to think though which spells belong on the latter list.

I'm not an imperious DM . . . I'm happy to get some agreement among my players. I like the idea of giving them a proposal and I'm asking the boards to help me think through my proposal so that it is as good a proposal as I can make it. For now, I want to explore what spells we won't be including.

(By the way, I see that I left Simulacrum off the list accidentally. I'll add it now.)

That doesn't answer the question.

Do you want to ban the spells that allow you to defeat gods? The ones that give melee absolutely no chance against a caster? The ones that allow the character to avoid most challenges?

The list of spells that are truly, brokenly, powerful is short (Gate, Shapechange, Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, and Arcane Genesis is pretty much the entire list).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Looking at your list there, you missed shivering touch, and contingency doesn't belong on there. You should also include the lower end polymorph subschool effects.

Shivering touch is written poorly enough that it demands interpretation, this leaves it ripe for abuse. Just nix it and save yourself an argument.

Contigency is a personal range spell with a focus (hi there sleight of hand) and you can only have one in effect at a time. The broken uses for contingency you always here about are uses of the craft contingent spell feat, not the spell.

The entire polymorph subschool is problematic. Just nix anything that doesn't call out a specific form and/or isn't very specific about what the new form gives you. This should include polymorph and alter self at the very least.

On a personal note, I don't think the planar binding line or gate really belong up there either (because forcing wishes can only end poorly. Read; the death of your character at best, and his total annihilation from the planes of reality at worst) but mileages vary on this group so I won't make a big fuss over it unless someone wants a discussion.

Otherwise, that looks about right to me. You might consider Wraith-strike, depending on the overall power level you're shooting for. It's a bit busted at the lower levels of power but at high-octane it's just a staple.

[nedz]

You could go for more general bans such as:
Action economy inflation spells other than Haste are deprecated.
This because Haste helps melee, and do casters really need to cast more than 1 spell per round ? There is an argument for Gishes being able to cast and fight, but I think the various PrC class features cover that.

Also you missed Streamers.

[toapat]

There is an argument for Gishes being able to cast and fight, but I think the various PrC class features cover that.

you would be wrong.

the only real saving grace for Gish builds is Paladin's Battle Blessing, which is hilariously broken if you allow Prestiege paladin. (<Class> Spells is not a RAW term.), as well as swift blade

[Alabenson]

Personally, I'd add the Dark Chaos Shuffle spells to the ban list, especially if you allow normal retraining anyway.

[toapat]

Personally, I'd add the Dark Chaos Shuffle spells to the ban list, especially if you allow normal retraining anyway.

DCFS is really only broken with elves, who get what is effectively +3-6 first level feat slots.

Even then, i doubt you can actually find enough material to replace the elven granted weapon proficiencies.

People bring up DFCS constantly. but here is the thing: Only general featslots are targetable with it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's a really simple houserule to fix the DCFS nonsense.

Whenever shun the dark chaos is used on a character who has been targeted with embrace the dark chaos, instead of making new selections he regains the feats he traded away with the casting of embrace the dark chaos.

Bam! The spells now work as they were most likely intended.

[Deth Muncher]

What should you ban?

Not a damn thing.

D&D is a Gentleman's Agreement. It's been said a thousand times, and I'll say it again.

If you're worried about people breaking a campaign before it starts, you've already got problems. Why are you worried? Do you not trust your players? If so, have they given you REASONS not to trust them? Because if that's the case, you should discuss your expectations about your game.

[ericgrau]

Hmmm, shivering touch, assay spell resistance and about 3 others I can't remember off the top of my head. Total. But most players won't even notice any of these. I'd agree with the above, just say no cheese and don't worry.

[Deophaun]

Prestidigitation. With all the crap I've pulled using that cantrip, I wouldn't hesitate to ban it :P

Seriously, I don't like to see Planar Binding banned. I understand the reasoning for it, but I also see it as an opportunity for the DM, as well. Remember that the entity being called has its own motivations and its own history. It may have friends in high (or low) places that are not too keen on their associates being coerced into the service of mortals. Local powers might take a dim view of people that pull creatures from other planes into their mundane worlds. I'd cast planar binding as a spell that is taboo well before I went to the extent of banning it entirely.

[Arcanist]

What should you ban?

Not a damn thing.

D&D is a Gentleman's Agreement. It's been said a thousand times, and I'll say it again.

If you're worried about people breaking a campaign before it starts, you've already got problems. Why are you worried? Do you not trust your players? If so, have they given you REASONS not to trust them? Because if that's the case, you should discuss your expectations about your game.

Quite right. Honestly if you're going to take the time to limit all of your players with a ban list you would be better of creating a system that would grant access to these players.

I use a knowledge based system on whether the player actually knows or can learn about the class.

DC knowledge (Whatever is appropriate) 10 for any feat.
DC Knowledge (") 10 + prestige class levels.
DC Knowledge (") 10 + Items market price / 1,000 for any magical item.
DC Spellcraft/Martial Lore (") 10 + Spell/Maneuver level x 2 for any spell/maneuver.

All base classes were automatically accessible as well as all Core and Clerics must devote themselves to a deity. The major problem I came across was all the book keeping. You have to keep track of all of your Wizard's Spellbooks.

I don't really even have to use this system that often since I trust my players to actually play with honor. You don't often see a lot of TO at most tables these days...

[nedz]

There's a really simple houserule to fix the DCFS nonsense.

Whenever shun the dark chaos is used on a character who has been targeted with embrace the dark chaos, instead of making new selections he regains the feats he traded away with the casting of embrace the dark chaos.

Bam! The spells now work as they were most likely intended.

Surely embrace the dark chaos should give them a random feat ?

[Rejakor]

It should just give them weapon focus every single time.

Shun the Dark Chaos, too.

Weapon Focus for everyone!

[toapat]

Surely embrace the dark chaos should give them a random feat ?

nope. Embrace is always an abyssal heritage feat

Shun, is typically assumed to not need to observe level retroactively, which it doesn't. The combo is simply about taking advantage of as many feat slots as possible when it is brought up

[Arcanist]

It should just give them weapon focus every single time.

Shun the Dark Chaos, too.

Weapon Focus for everyone!

1st of all. I love this idea, due to the sheer amount of lulzy reaction a player would get at that

2nd. I hate this idea if I am the player

nope. Embrace is always an abyssal heritage feat

Shun, is typically assumed to not need to observe level retroactively, which it doesn't. The combo is simply about taking advantage of as many feat slots as possible when it is brought up

The cleaver idea is to play an Elf. Specialize in Divination. Chaos Shuffle your Racial weapon proficiencies (which are indeed feats! PM if you disagree!) away to gain the Arcane Transfiguration feat tree. You are now a specialized wizard without being a specialized wizard!

This also works for your weapon proficiencies from your class.

[rockdeworld]

Not a damn thing.

+1, even over what I said before.

On a side note, I don't like ban lists, because I like making very powerful characters. For me, it's not about breaking the plot. It's just about not dying.

[toapat]

The cleaver idea is to play an Elf. Specialize in Divination. Chaos Shuffle your Racial weapon proficiencies (which are indeed feats! PM if you disagree!) away to gain the Arcane Transfiguration feat tree. You are now a specialized wizard without being a specialized wizard!

This also works for your weapon proficiencies from your class.

while elven weapon proficiencies are feats you are able to DCFS, granted weapon proficiencies are not feats, they occupy internal slots that can only be used for weapon proficiencies. this is why the True Dilletante isnt actually a legit build, it is DCFSing feats that dont exist.

[Arcanist]

while elven weapon proficiencies are feats you are able to DCFS, granted weapon proficiencies are not feats, they occupy internal slots that can only be used for weapon proficiencies. this is why the True Dilletante isnt actually a legit build, it is DCFSing feats that dont exist.

I'm actually curious where you heard that

The Dillentante doesn't work because it on the very thread it describes that it says and i quote

Now, retrain your race as dwarf and join the Wintervein Dwarves

Retraining your Race is impossible as you cannot retrain race... You can rebuild it of course, but I'm just being a nitpicky joker

... But in all seriousness. Where did you hear that proficiency feats gained through classes are invalid targets as they are not feats

[toapat]

I'm actually curious where you heard that

The Dillentante doesn't work because it on the very thread it describes that it says and i quote



Retraining your Race is impossible as you cannot retrain race... You can rebuild it of course, but I'm just being a nitpicky joker

... But in all seriousness. Where did you hear that proficiency feats gained through classes are invalid targets as they are not feats

Wish + reincarnation?

Granted proficiencies are not feats for the purpose of DCFS because DCFS requires the targeted feat to be occupied a slot that normally could be able to contain an abyssal heritage. Granted proficiencies occupy slots that are specifically granted weapon proficiencies. Even if you can normally retrain them, you can't retrain them into anything but weapon proficiencies, because of the restrictions as defined by being "granted weapon proficiency feats". Elves are specifically stated to receive their proficiencies as bonus feats, not as granted proficiencies.

[Hanuman]

Bannable? Any touch attack spell that deals dex damage. You'll find some in frostburn. A fourth level wizard has a minimum 50% chance of defeating an elder wurm dragon with one spell.
--The counter to this is to make Scintillating Scales a passive for most dragons instead of something that can be dispelled.

My advice is generally use pathfinder transitions whenever you can, or at least change how the spells work in your campaign.

Some spells, for instance, are very vague and need to be re-done or made more clear where as others are quite clear and need to be tweaked.

Dancing Chains Sorc/Wiz5 (BoVD) is one of my favorite spells (top 5 for sure), but it's got a nasty mixture of vague and precise terms that make it troublesome. You can take control of 1/lvl chains at range with no specifications, saves, ext which means the spell gives you control of all chains, including drawbridges or chains on a chain demon, or a chain on a spiked chain someone is holding, and technically the chains don't have to be made of anything specific. Essentially, this is an offensive animate object spell which grants you about minimum 10 objects of indeterminate width, length, speed and material that all get attacks or grapples every round, you can climb them without checks AND they are not actually alive so they don't act as creatures, 100% object with HP and hardness intact. They can also grow or retract razor-wire protrusions at-will.

My favorite tactic is setting up a cloud (any cloud will do, best is poisonous) then popping a stone wall behind it with steps to the top on the inside, murderholes to shoot through and a slit near the bottom horizontal and 1" taller than the chain's widths, then cast dancing chains and send them through. Real horrorshow and the wall can't be dispelled because it isn't magic. Meanwhile my kobalds-- I mean party members are firing blindly at them with crossbow bolts and eldritch blasts and whathaveyou.

Got runners? "GET OVER HERE!"

[ShriekingDrake]

Thanks for all the comments so far, folks.

Some of you, I believe, misunderstand our groups motivations here. There has been no DM split. D&D is a game that uses a LOT of rules in books. Some of those rules work well in all campaigns; some work well in few. We have all be playing together for a long time in our group. As I mentioned above, there is interest this time around in optimizing, but the group also recognizes some need for constraint. AS A GROUP, we are interested in addressing a variety of aspects of the rules and I have come to the playground to ask your assistance in thinking about spells.

I understand that for some groups banning anything or not completely relying on each persons individual sense of judgment is a sign of disharmony, distrust, or worse. I do not believe that this is the case for our group. We're actually trying to get some of the infelicities out of the game up front--this time around--and while there will be things we miss and we will have to rely on the good judgment of each person, we're trying to start from a place of common ground. If this approach does not work for your group or you, that's OK. I'm really not asking for advice about whether to take the approach of banning any spells; as a group we've already agreed that this is an approach we wish to take. I'm charged with preposing both spells to ban and spells to fix and this thread is seeking advice about spells to ban.

@rockdeworld: Thanks for these thoughts on the specific spells. You make a good point about lesser celerity. Generally our group disfavors time manipulation--except for haste--and so I may have swept in too much of the celerity line. It's something worth considering. Along similar lines, Time Stop is something we don't tend to care for. A lot of abuse can happen in those rounds where only one side gets to act. With regard to Genesis, too many variables there; it seems better to remove it altogether as creating planes is not necessary for mere mortals. The game is not harmed without this spell it seems to me. As for your thoughts on Lesser Binding, I need to think about this--you make a good point.

@emperor tippy: I think I did answer your question; but I understood it differently than you did. I am not sure I have a set of themes to unfurl about which spells to remove. Rather, I thought about spells that have caused disputes over the years or that resulted in unbalancing the game. There may be themes that connect them, but it wasn't how I approached creating that list--with, perhaps, two exceptions. Our group generally disfavors time-based tricks (though Haste is just fine). Also, some of the summoning/polymorphing spells bring wishes and other kinds of almost meta-game manipulations into the game--we tend to eschew these. As I indicated above, there is agreement among the group that we should remove some spells from this next campaign (and fix others) to make fun game with as much common ground as we can muster.

(I've got to run now, I'll follow up later. Thanks for all the comments so far.)

[nedz]

I know the Chaos Combo, but I'm not going to get draw into that debate: it just leads to flaming madness.

The problem I have with 'Gentleman's Agreements" is that I like to know where I am.
I have had the situation where I was playing a Sorcerer and planned my spell selection 4 or so levels in advance. I would pass over a spell intending to take a higher level one in its place, only to discover, much to my surprise, that the DM banned the second spell. This happened several times and left me with a poor spell set The DM's ban list was very unpredictable.

[Arcanist]

Wish + reincarnation?

Those are the 2 spells your citing? Is it Reincarnating and then Wish for your original form? I'm not seeing where it says they are "granted" and not considered feats by that, but then again I didn't know feats could be considered "granted".

Granted proficiencies are not feats for the purpose of DCFS because DCFS requires the targeted feat to be occupied a slot that normally could be able to contain an abyssal heritage. Granted proficiencies occupy slots that are specifically granted weapon proficiencies. Even if you can normally retrain them, you can't retrain them into anything but weapon proficiencies, because of the restrictions as defined by being "granted weapon proficiency feats". Elves are specifically stated to receive their proficiencies as bonus feats, not as granted proficiencies.

I feel like this is the same discussion that I had with Flickerdart on the whole "retraining" racial proficiencies (which I now agree with him on that. You cannot retrain them since apparently they are not considered choices.)

Embrace the Chaos doesn't differentiate between a granted feat or a bonus feat or whatever really all that matters is.

A) It is a feat.
B) You meet all the prerequisites for the feats.
C) It is not a affecting your class qualifications.

I mean, I've never even heard of "granted" feats. Do you mind telling me where those are exactly?

[Man on Fire]

That doesn't answer the question.

Do you want to ban the spells that allow you to defeat gods? The ones that give melee absolutely no chance against a caster? The ones that allow the character to avoid most challenges?

Can I get on the boat when we're at it? I want to ban spells that lets my players have it easy way, or give them anything without any trouble whatsoever, that remove consequences of their actions. Like Atonment or any spell that can ressurect somebody - spells that are one big Get Out Of The Jail For Free card.

And I mean spells whose main and primary use is that, spells that can do it but require loads of work and creativity are okay and so i combinign spells or spells to avoid small problems - I have no problem with somebody using Alter Self to escape pursuit, or wizard combining summoning spells to rebuild a castle, but spells that let you bring dead back to life like they never died, rebuild a city in a blink of an eye or just generally make it like whatever took place never happened are out.

And list of spells that make meele hopeless against casters would be good to know too, I need to know what never give my npcs.