40K Orks vs. The Galactic Empire

[LOTRfan]

Y'know, I'm leery of the EU material being in this debate, given that it fluctuates the Star Wars power level so wildly, but I suppose if we're going to allow all the 40k supplements we might as well. It isn't as though Orks don't fight people that annihilate planets with their minds anyway.

You're right. Guidlines as to what can be used can help. Other wise, why wouldn't the Empire just Delta Zero the Orkz?

[Axolotl]

Have you read any expanded universe material? Because I have and people are reduced to a fine dust at the highest possible settings (then again, there is also a chance of the gun exploding when this is done, but still).

I has assumed that we would go by what happens in the actual movies, how foolish of me.

[LOTRfan]

I has assumed that we would go by what happens in the actual movies, how foolish of me.

... Yeah, we're definitely going to need some guidelines here.

Any suggestion, Lord Gareth?

[Lord_Gareth]

... Yeah, we're definitely going to need some guidelines here.

Any suggestion, Lord Gareth?

Both universes can get redonkulously over the top, so...

Okay. We'll allow anything unless there's a compelling reason not to. However, scale should be kept in mind - Orks, for example, regularly take rockets to the face. And survive. Messed up, certainly, but they survive.

Additionally, to extrapolate on the scenario before - Nar Shadaa is the redheaded stepchild of the Empire, which is why I chose that planet. The Orks are going to be able to WAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! towards other planets from there, at which point the Empire is going to get involved pretty seriously. However, Imperial Stupidity should be kept in mind.

Lastly, Irbis, even if we wanted to have this "Stormtrooper armor is teh invulnerabullllzzzz" debate again, the power of the WAAAAAAAAAAAGH! has been repeatedly demonstrated to be > armor. Ork Sluggaz and Shootaz will work just fine.

[LOTRfan]

Alright. Well, rocket launchers in Star Wars are more powerful than blasters (even on their highest setting), so I guess blasters on high would seriously injure, but not kill, Orkz. Yikes.

I think I'll have to give this one to the Orkz, if it is fully planetary-based battle.

[chiasaur11]

Actually, the fight goes the other way. First, the Stormtroopers are mowing down Ewoks and sending the bears running back into the trees. Then the Ewoks make a comeback, with log traps to take out walkers and so on.

Also, am I the only one who thinks that Owen Lars' farmstead was taken out by a thermal detonator? It fits the observable evidence on screen much better than Owen and Beru getting gunned down.

Everyone knows that's what happened. Domestic dispute gone wrong, and the poor stormtroopers got caught in the middle. Shame, really.

[The Big Dice]

Everyone knows that's what happened. Domestic dispute gone wrong, and the poor stormtroopers got caught in the middle. Shame, really.

It just goes to show, never get involved in a domestic. You'll only lose.

[Warlawk]

Except, complete incineration is what Blasters set to full power do to human body. See, for example, what was left out of Oven and Beru Lars or Vader's line 'No Disintegrations'. Only someone protected by blastproof suit, stormtrooper armour or hit by blast of small power (as the one that hit Leia in RotJ, when stormies tried to capture her) has any chance of survival. I don't think stormtroopers would use anything but strongest settings once they notice how tough Orks are. Against Hutt armies, Orks would fare even worse, as Hutts have many alien auxillaries tough as or tougher than orks, and use full range of illegal weaponry (like Disruptors - SW version of Necron Gauss gun, fusion cutters, or concussion guns).

Orks would have trouble wounding stormtroopers in return, from anything but their equivalent or bolters and big shootas. Everything else will just bounce off.

I think you're vastly overestimating empire tech. Orks don't seem to have much trouble dealing with space marine armor, and I am just not buying that stormtrooper armor is tougher than astartes. Gotta remember, (most) orks prefer MOAR DAKKA instead of just blasting clean through. Sure, one shot isn't going to punch through the armor, but there's never just one shot. And a good many of them just use the dakka as a distraction to get close enough to use their choppas. A storm trooper in close combat with an ork is done.

As for ork resilience to attacks... they're able to stand up to bolter shots pretty dang well, and are roughly as tough as the genetically engineered superhuman space marines. I'm just not seeing them falling over and dieing from every blaster shot, not even taking into account stormtrooper accuracy which I will grant is writer fiat. It wouldn't be very interesting if the stormtroopers just gunned down all the heroes, even though at their level being trained soldiers, that's likely what would have happened.

All in all, I would say that an ork is probably considerably harder to kill than an armored stormtrooper is. At range the orks lose, but once they close to melee the stormtroopers are nothing but fodder. With the numbers the orks can put out, they WILL close to melee.

In the larger picture, I honestly don't know enough star wars to put in a good opinion. I've seen all the movies a couple times and that's it. I just don't follow it that much.

Oh, and regarding Ork invasions - I was re-reading Caves of Ice just yesterday. Space Hulk full of orks assaults the planet, takes on one regiment nowhere near as well armed or armoured as stormtroopers, Valhallan 597th... and they are massacred by tens of thousands. By one unprepared regiment with hastily drawn defence line. With little losses. Replace them with stormtroopers, and they wouldn't even need Necron intervention to kill all of the orks.

Writer fiat does strange things eh? The writer wanted the guard to look like heroes so he wrote it that way. Not exactly a good representation of how things generally go down in almost every other battle.

[Moff Chumley]

And anyhow, wasn't CAIPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM involved in that one?

[Forum Explorer]

And anyhow, wasn't CAIPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM involved in that one?

and the Orks got attacked by Necrons as well. The guard only ever fought the vanguard of the horde.

[chiasaur11]

And anyhow, wasn't CAIPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM involved in that one?

Yes. He was.

He's the HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, and it was a million to one shot.

We all know how million to one shots work, I trust?

[Ytaker]

Orkz often serve as cannon fodder, in story. The empire has repeating machine guns and other big mounted weapons which can kill a lot of them.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/E-Web...eating_blaster

In close combat they'd obviously lose, but they'd be able to hit them pretty hard at range. The empire has more dakka too.

I think it's clear, though, that ork space hulks would lose to star destroyers. The aerial advantage for the imperium would be huge.

[LOTRfan]

I agree. In space combat, Empire wins, no contest.

Planetary combat, though... yeah, the Empire might be able to take out bunches of Orkz, but they cannot hold off a sustained assault. It'd just be easier to Base Delta Zero everything...

[Ganurath]

...And when words get out that the Empire is spamming Base Delta Zero on civilian worlds, they suddenly find it much more difficult to give the Orks the neccesary attention due to the rebellion that was already stirring gaining more momentum than it ever would have had from a meer Death Star.

[LOTRfan]

...And when words get out that the Empire is spamming Base Delta Zero on civilian worlds, they suddenly find it much more difficult to give the Orks the neccesary attention due to the rebellion that was already stirring gaining more momentum than it ever would have had from a meer Death Star.

They were able to get away with it during the Falleen Bacteria Crisis. Perhaps if they could convince the general population it was a necessity (in order to prevent the spread of a nigh-unstoppable infestation), perhaps they could get away with it again? Probably not, though.

[Emperor Ing]

Uh, source, please? The 501st Legion (or Vader's Fist), the one stationed at Endor, was composed of hundreds of troops. Granted, the majority were stationed on the Death Star (both of them, so their numbers admittedly had dwindled by Episode Six), but there is no way thirty troopers constituted as a legion.

My source is the freakin' movie. Granted, the stormtrooper that hit Leia was probably able to do more in 5 minutes than all the other stormtroopers from the other 19,999* legions' lifetimes to the power of itself so their title of "my [The Emperor's] finest legion" is probably well-earned for that one single reason, and I can understand their numbers have dwindled, but what Solo & Friends fought is not a legion. A legion consists of THOUSANDS of soldiers. They fought dozens. A company at the VERY most, yet The Emperor called it a legion.
The most I can say here is that a legion can possibly mean something totally different in "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away" than it would today.

[Selrahc]

I think it's clear, though, that ork space hulks would lose to star destroyers.

It really really isn't.

Ork Space Hulks are fleet killers. Devastating super weapons that serve as the lynchpin of an entire waaagh. Their power breaks worlds.

Even if every other ship in the ork fleet was inferior to the Star Destroyers, which is far from a given, Space Hulks are on a whole other level. A space hulk can take on multiple capital ships and dozens of their escorts simultaneously and come out on top, entirely without support.

And note, I don't think star destroyers really are substantially better than Ork battleships. Ork battleships are six times their size, and are noticeably over-gunned and over-armoured for their weight class. An Imperial Star destroyer is only the size of a light cruiser in 40K terms, and is generally fairly undergunned at that.

[comicshorse]

.. Base Delta Zero

Just for me what does that refer to ?

[Tavar]

Systematic elimination of all life on the surface of the planet done by orbital bombardment.

[comicshorse]

Systematic elimination of all life on the surface of the planet done by orbital bombardment.

Thanks.
Yes that seems the way to go,

[Ytaker]

It really really isn't.

Ork Space Hulks are fleet killers. Devastating super weapons that serve as the lynchpin of an entire waaagh. Their power breaks worlds.

Even if every other ship in the ork fleet was inferior to the Star Destroyers, which is far from a given, Space Hulks are on a whole other level. A space hulk can take on multiple capital ships and dozens of their escorts simultaneously and come out on top, entirely without support.

And note, I don't think star destroyers really are substantially better than Ork battleships. Ork battleships are six times their size, and are noticeably over-gunned and over-armoured for their weight class. An Imperial Star destroyer is only the size of a light cruiser in 40K terms, and is generally fairly undergunned at that.

Oh, I thought they served mostly as troop transports. I don't really know much of the fluff about space hulks.

If you are a fan, could you give the general specs of a space hulk, so we know what they'd be facing? Fire rate, common super weapons, stuff like that.

[Renegade Paladin]

Okay guys, rein yourselves in a bit. One WAAAGH! is not going to overrun an entire galaxy. Hundreds at once don't do it in 40k; one isn't going to do it here. The Orks are tough. If the entire Milky Way Ork infestation were to attack the Empire, the Empire would be toast, at least as we know it, but that isn't the scenario. They're hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned by an enemy with the ability to bring huge amounts of its total force to bear within days if necessary.

If they could bide their time, work through the Outer Rim, and build themselves an empire in which to multiply and build up undetected or at least underestimated, then sure, they could do heavy damage. But they won't. Dat's un-Orky, ya gitz! As soon as they heard about the Empire and its military might, they'd head straight for the Core, to get to da good fightin' as rapidly as possible. And then they die. Messily, but they die all the same.

[The Glyphstone]

Okay guys, rein yourselves in a bit. One WAAAGH! is not going to overrun an entire galaxy. Hundreds at once don't do it in 40k; one isn't going to do it here. The Orks are tough. If the entire Milky Way Ork infestation were to attack the Empire, the Empire would be toast, at least as we know it, but that isn't the scenario. They're hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned by an enemy with the ability to bring huge amounts of its total force to bear within days if necessary.

If they could bide their time, work through the Outer Rim, and build themselves an empire in which to multiply and build up undetected or at least underestimated, then sure, they could do heavy damage. But they won't. Dat's un-Orky, ya gitz! As soon as they heard about the Empire and its military might, they'd head straight for the Core, to get to da good fightin' as rapidly as possible. And then they die. Messily, but they die all the same.

Of course they die, but they can't lose. Cause if they win, they win; if they die, they died fightin' so it don't count; and if they run away, they can aways come back for another go, see?

[Tavar]

I think the real question is how badly the Empire is going to be hurting after this. And what it's going to mean for their whole social situation.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright, a potentially more interesting question: what scale of WAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! do we need to give the Orks an honest shot at winning without being auto-win?

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe if we throw Gazgul Mag Uruk Thraka and WAAAAAUGH Gazgul at them? Gazgul is a fairly good tactician by human standards (which makes him a regular Orkish Sun Tzu), and he leads the largest WAAAAAUGH in history. That could be an interesting matchup against the Empire.

[Lord_Gareth]

Gorgutz 'Ead 'Hunter and his WAAAAAAAAGH! may also be interesting, as Gorgutz has actually discovered the tactical retreat.

[Emperor Ing]

I think what happens is that the Orks and the Empire are used to fighting on completely different scales. 40k is over-the-top where all factions throw around enough firepower to level a city over the course of a minute, and these wars that the battles are waged from have been ongoing for over ten thousand years.
The Orks, despite their constant outfighting and constant infighting, still comprise the single most numerous and powerful fighting force in the 40k universe. They have a nearly unsurpassed knack for technology as anything, ANYTHING they get their hands on can be made to work under their control with absolutely no issues.
The Empire, although it also possesses an incredible fighting force, is no match for a faction that is so over-the-top. In order to compete, they have to use exotic, in many cases illegal, in all cases rare and/or impractical, weapons just for one solider to have firepower roughly equal to what their Ork counterpart has standard-issue.
With the exeption of space battles (and even that appears to be gravitating in the Orks' favor) I think the Empire is toast. While it's safe to say that one WAAAAAAGH!! won't destroy the entire Galactic Empire because that's absurd, it WILL do more than enough damage for it to be considered a good WAAAAAAAGH!! by ork standards.

[Moff Chumley]

With the exeption of space battles (and even that appears to be gravitating in the Orks' favor) I think the Empire is toast. While it's safe to say that one WAAAAAAGH!! won't destroy the entire Galactic Empire because that's absurd, but it WILL do more than enough damage for it to be considered a good WAAAAAAAGH!! by ork standards.

I think this is a fairly good synopsis. Regardless of how large in scale the Orks are, the Galactic Empire is fairly huge also, and if they're capable of bringing their entire force to bear against something, they'll probably defeat it, eventually.

[Tavar]

Yeah. The question then becomes, how much damage was done, and what happens next. Does the rebellion ever form? Or does it use the weakened state of the empire to split earlier? Or something else?

What happens if it starts on Tatooine?