Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

[Dudewithknives]

How are you getting the level 20 capstone by level 7? If you talk about converting warlook spell slots to sorcery points then you need three levels of warlook before you get the same effect of 4 sorcery points per short rest which whould leave you with
4 level 1 spell slots and 3 level 2 spell slots+ 4 sorcery points for being a sorcerer and 4 more from the warlook spell slots for a grand total of
4 Level 1 spell slots
3 level 2 spell slots and 8 sorcery points (ignoring your max cap of 4 SP)

The level 7 sorecerer has
4 level 1 spell slots 3 level 2 spell slots 3 level 3 spell slots and 1 level 4 spell slots + 7 sorcery points
If we convert the higher level spell slots to SP to make a more direct comparision 3 level 3 spell slot and 1 level 4 spell slot gives 13 sorcery points
So the level 7 sorcerer has
4 level 1 spell slots
3 level 2 spell slots
20 sorcery points

20-8=12
12/4=3
So the multiclassed sorcerer needs 3 short rests to catch up to the single classed sorcerer.

I am pretty sure he means that the level 20 Sorcerer capstone is garbage and can be completely duplicated by 3 levels of warlock and get all the other bonus of 3 levels of warlock on top of it.

4 levels of sorcerer with 3 levels of warlock can get back the exact same number of SP per short rest as the level 20 sorcerer ability.

[UrielAwakened]

What's with the level 20 sorc part?

3 levels of Warlock, 4 levels of Sorc.

Every short rest you get back 4 Sorcery Points. Which requires being a 20th level Sorcerer to do, and they only get it once per long rest anyway IIRC (I could be wrong, I don't plan on ever taking 20 levels of Sorcerer anyway.)

[krugaan]

3 levels of Warlock, 4 levels of Sorc.

Every short rest you get back 4 Sorcery Points. Which requires being a 20th level Sorcerer to do, and they only get it once per long rest anyway IIRC (I could be wrong, I don't plan on ever taking 20 levels of Sorcerer anyway.)

Yeah, well that's true, the level 20 sorc capstone is really sh!t. They really should have made better capstones to actually encourage straight single classing.

Multiclassing should always be "I want more options" and not "I want to be more powerful", and usually it kind of is, except in weird cases like sorc and lock. The fact that there is virtually *no* tradeoff is a pretty bad design flaw.

[UrielAwakened]

We needed stuff on the level of 4es epic Destiny capstones.

Some of those were bonkers.

[krugaan]

We needed stuff on the level of 4es epic Destiny capstones.

Some of those were bonkers.

What kind of stuff did they have in 4E? never played it.

I always thought sorcs should get a level 20 capstone like "all spells function as if they were cast two slots higher" or "you get a free 2 sp discount to spend on metamagics every turn" or something that really makes them feel more powerful.

Wizards get an unlimited 1st and second level spell, for chrissakes. Sorcs get their subclass capstone (some are pretty good) and the measly 4 extra sp thing at 20, which is just terrible.

[Galactkaktus]

Lets be realistic here, two levels of lock basically doubles your at will damage, which is nothing to sneeze at.

But how often does at-will damage seal the deal, when well picked and placed spells can end encounters? Honest question.

I'm assuming that you exclude level 6+ draconic sorcerers from that?
Since the level 6 version is.
2d10+5 vs 2d10+10
16 vs 21
21/16=1,31 which is 31% increase
the level 11 version
3d10+5 vs 3d10+15
21,5 vs 31,5
31,5/21,5=1,47 Which is 47% increase
The level 17 version
4d10+5 vs 4d10+20
27 vs 42
42/27=1,56 which is a 55% increase.
At no level do you come close to doubbleing your at-will damage. And this is excluding the fact that critts only applies to the d10s and not the other modifiers.

[UrielAwakened]

What kind of stuff did they have in 4E? never played it.

I always thought sorcs should get a level 20 capstone like "all spells function as if they were cast two slots higher" or "you get a free 2 sp discount to spend on metamagics every turn" or something that really makes them feel more powerful.

Wizards get an unlimited 1st and second level spell, for chrissakes. Sorcs get their subclass capstone (some are pretty good) and the measly 4 extra sp thing at 20, which is just terrible.

Some examples off the top of my head:

Archmage: Upgrade one daily spell to an encounter spell (5e equivalent would probably be you get back a 9th level spell slot every short rest.)

Beast Lord (Ranger epic destiny): As long as you or your beast companion has at least 1 hit point, the other can't die.

Demigod: When you run out of encounter powers, you get one back (5e equivalent being, any time you have no more abilities that refresh on a short rest, you can get one back).

Legendary General (A Warlord epic destiny): Nobody around you can die until you do except from failed death saving throws. Radius would be 100 feet.

Parable: Once a day when you die, you didn't, and you come back with full hit points. The whole epic destiny was about you realizing you're actually in a story. It was great.

Saint: Any time you heal someone, they regain an extra 25 hit points.

Undying Warrior: This one is great. You straight-up can't die. Whenever you would die, you come back. Each time you die it takes a little longer to come back the next time you die that day. It goes from one turn to at the end of the encounter, to 1 hour, to 12 hours, to 24 hours.

Oh yeah and Thief of Legend: You can steal anything. You pick something to steal and you get it. It can be someone's soul. It can be a concept. The moon. Whatever.

[krugaan]

I'm assuming that you exclude level 6+ draconic sorcerers from that?
Since the level 6 version is.
2d10+5 vs 2d10+10
16 vs 21
21/16=1,31 which is 31% increase
the level 11 version
3d10+5 vs 3d10+15
21,5 vs 31,5
31,5/21,5=1,47 Which is 47% increase
The level 17 version
4d10+5 vs 4d10+20
27 vs 42
42/27=1,56 which is a 55% increase.
At no level do you come close to doubbleing your at-will damage. And this is excluding the fact that critts only applies to the d10s and not the other modifiers.

Oops, I forgot about the draconian thing. Also, I wasn't counting crits either. I was just making a standard napkin math sort of calculation with 1d10 v 1d10+5.

Although, that just makes dipping warlock even less of a benefit, if you went draconian sorcerer, anyway.

[UrielAwakened]

Oops, I forgot about the draconian thing. Also, I wasn't counting crits either. I was just making a standard napkin math sort of calculation with 1d10 v 1d10+5.

Although, that just makes dipping warlock even less of a benefit, if you went draconian sorcerer, anyway.

Fire is so much worse than Force.

Like 20% of things resist fire and nothing resists force.

It also ignores that one of the greatest benefits is more sorcery point spam for quickened Eldritch Blasts. 8d10+10 vs. 8d10+40 is quite different, especially when you have quadruple the crit chances and can perform it many more times a day.

I whould say that the singel classed level 7 sorcerer gets a whole bunch of dead from 3 fireballs and a level 4 spell that the EB sorc doesn't have.

Much more situational.

[krugaan]

Some examples off the top of my head:

Archmage: Upgrade one daily spell to an encounter spell (5e equivalent would probably be you get back a 9th level spell slot every short rest.)

Beast Lord (Ranger epic destiny): As long as you or your beast companion has at least 1 hit point, the other can't die.

Demigod: When you run out of encounter powers, you get one back (5e equivalent being, any time you have no more abilities that refresh on a short rest, you can get one back).

Legendary General (A Warlord epic destiny): Nobody around you can die until you do except from failed death saving throws. Radius would be 100 feet.

Parable: Once a day when you die, you didn't, and you come back with full hit points. The whole epic destiny was about you realizing you're actually in a story. It was great.

Saint: Any time you heal someone, they regain an extra 25 hit points.

Undying Warrior: This one is great. You straight-up can't die. Whenever you would die, you come back. Each time you die it takes a little longer to come back the next time you die that day. It goes from one turn to at the end of the encounter, to 1 hour, to 12 hours, to 24 hours.

Oh yeah and Thief of Legend: You can steal anything. You pick something to steal and you get it. It can be someone's soul. It can be a concept. The moon. Whatever.

Those range from "Meh" to "WTF", heavily favoring "WTF".

[Galactkaktus]

The single-classed Sorcerer can't Eldritch blast twice for basically nothing.

Say all you want about spell slots, the best status effect is still dead. And Quickened Eldritch Blast gets you a whole bunch of dead.

I whould say that the singel classed level 7 sorcerer gets a whole bunch of dead from 3 fireballs and a level 4 spell that the EB sorc doesn't have.

[Nifft]

Some examples off the top of my head:

Archmage: Upgrade one daily spell to an encounter spell (5e equivalent would probably be you get back a 9th level spell slot every short rest.)

Beast Lord (Ranger epic destiny): As long as you or your beast companion has at least 1 hit point, the other can't die.

Demigod: When you run out of encounter powers, you get one back (5e equivalent being, any time you have no more abilities that refresh on a short rest, you can get one back).

Legendary General (A Warlord epic destiny): Nobody around you can die until you do except from failed death saving throws. Radius would be 100 feet.

Parable: Once a day when you die, you didn't, and you come back with full hit points. The whole epic destiny was about you realizing you're actually in a story. It was great.

Saint: Any time you heal someone, they regain an extra 25 hit points.

Undying Warrior: This one is great. You straight-up can't die. Whenever you would die, you come back. Each time you die it takes a little longer to come back the next time you die that day. It goes from one turn to at the end of the encounter, to 1 hour, to 12 hours, to 24 hours.

Oh yeah and Thief of Legend: You can steal anything. You pick something to steal and you get it. It can be someone's soul. It can be a concept. The moon. Whatever.

If those were valid capstones in 5e, I suspect multi-classing wouldn't be quite so prevalent.

Multi-class PC: "I roll to hit the bugbear for 4d10 +20 force damage."

Single-class PC: "I roll to steal the moon."

[Theodoxus]

Fascinating discussion, I appreciate it.

For those playing along, I did use specifically antagonistic language in the hopes it would spark discussion, and that worked swimmingly. I'm not actually pro or con multiclassing as an option; though not having to remember every potential interaction between class abilities that players can bring as a DM is quite pleasant. I've thoroughly enjoyed both types of characters. One thing I don't miss in the no-MC game is the agony of figuring out class breaks.

[krugaan]

If those were valid capstones in 5e, I suspect multi-classing wouldn't be quite so prevalent.

Multi-class PC: "I roll to hit the bugbear for 4d10 +20 force damage."

Single-class PC: "I roll to steal the moon."

"I steal your wallet."

"wait, whose wallet, the bugbears?"

"no, your wallet. Gimme. Imma steal your girlfriend next."

/hands over wallet

"... looking at these photos, I've decided you can keep the girlfriend."

Fascinating discussion, I appreciate it.

For those playing along, I did use specifically antagonistic language in the hopes it would spark discussion, and that worked swimmingly. I'm not actually pro or con multiclassing as an option; though not having to remember every potential interaction between class abilities that players can bring as a DM is quite pleasant. I've thoroughly enjoyed both types of characters. One thing I don't miss in the no-MC game is the agony of figuring out class breaks.

Humph, what a ****! LOL

[ad_hoc]

Well, the fact that it is in the rules of AL that multi classing is allowed.

And the fact I used to own the only gaming store in 90 miles and saw people run 100s of games there and I can only remember 4 that said no multi classing.
Those 4 were also made because people were tired of people power gaming multi class builds.

Unless my area is far outside the norm to be an outlier, that would imply that ALL AL games allow multi classing, and by far most non-AL games do.

Do you think the majority of D&D happens in game stores? Actual question, I don't have statistics on that. I wonder if the D&D team has commented on that.

I personally have no experience with people at game stores. I have no desire to play at a store and don't know anyone who does.

"no, your wallet. Gimme. Imma steal your girlfriend next."

Women aren't objects.

[UrielAwakened]

Do you think the majority of D&D happens in game stores? Actual question, I don't have statistics on that. I wonder if the D&D team has commented on that.

I personally have no experience with people at game stores. I have no desire to play at a store and don't know anyone who does.

Doubtful, just like the majority of magic happens at kitchen tables.

That doesn't mean it's okay for the devs to throw their hands up and say, "Well it's not like we balanced this game with tournament magic in mind."

[FreddyNoNose]

Nah, the game is fine.

Multi-classing might be ruining the civility of this sub-forum, though.

After putting 5 points into my argument attribute, I have to say you are 100% wrong.

[Nifft]

Oh yeah and Thief of Legend: You can steal anything. You pick something to steal and you get it. It can be someone's soul. It can be a concept. The moon. Whatever.

Women aren't objects.

Did you just assume his girlfriend's gender?!

Serious answer: Apparently, you can steal anything, including concepts. So not being an object isn't a defense.

After putting 5 points into my argument attribute, I have to say you are 100% wrong.

no u

[krugaan]

Women aren't objects.

Fine, I know that they exist only as fevered dreams in adolescent fantasy. But according to description, I can steal anything, including abstract concepts, so there.

no u

They do say brevity is the soul of wit. Well played, sir.

[Galactkaktus]

Fire is so much worse than Force.

Like 20% of things resist fire and nothing resists force.

It also ignores that one of the greatest benefits is more sorcery point spam for quickened Eldritch Blasts. 8d10+10 vs. 8d10+40 is quite different, especially when you have quadruple the crit chances and can perform it many more times a day.



Much more situational.

I whouldn't call 20% of things resists it situational that still means that 80% of the things don't resist it which is the majority of things. And when it comes to spaming there is nothing that stops you from spamming firebolt with quicken. You can even twin it for half the SP cost which you can't do with EB so firebolt should have an edge in spammability. And i've showed that you don't get more Sorcery points if you don't get atlest 4 short rests per day you break even at three short rests. But it's true that if we just spam cantrips eb does about 31% more damage pretty sure 3 level 3 spell slots and 1 level 4 spell slot should be able to surpass that damage in one adventuring day. And you might get double the amounts of critt but every critt does half as much extra damage so it should be equal when it comes to critts.

[ad_hoc]

Fine, I know that they exist only as fevered dreams in adolescent fantasy. But according to description, I can steal anything, including abstract concepts, so there.

Women are also not abstract concepts.

This is why gaming culture is toxic.

[krugaan]

Women are also not abstract concepts.

This is why gaming culture is toxic.

I was assuming you were joking, as I was, but apparently you were not.

Thank you for disabusing me of that notion.

[Vaz]

I was assuming you were joking, as I was, but apparently you were not.

Thank you for disabusing me of that notion.

**** no. No fun on the internet. Must be serious as cancer all the time around and about women.

Also, he/she/it is wrong, because women are objects. They are also creatures. According to the wife though, calling her a creature is wrong, (and earns being yelled at for still not putting the shelf up she's perfectly capable of doing herself because she did the other 3 that she yelled at me for 6 months to do before doing it herself).

So, they're not creatures, and they're not objects, and they're not pseudoreal abstract concepts? Hmm i wonder, is this truly a journey in solipsism? . Are you actually real? Or is my brain literally just making you up?

Damn it.

[Isaire]

Fire is so much worse than Force.

Like 20% of things resist fire and nothing resists force.

It also ignores that one of the greatest benefits is more sorcery point spam for quickened Eldritch Blasts. 8d10+10 vs. 8d10+40 is quite different, especially when you have quadruple the crit chances and can perform it many more times a day.



Much more situational.

I guess on the plus side, spamming twinned firebolts uses half the sorcery points of spamming quickened eldritch blasts, as eldritch blasts cannot be twinned. And if you want to go crazy into cantrips, you could twin a firebolt and quicken a firebolt, but that hardly seems worth doing. Worth noting that it is possible though. I'm sure you could find a better use for your bonus action, divine soul with spiritual weapon say, or I'm sure the other forum dwellers can think of something better :)

[Telwar]

Fascinating discussion, I appreciate it.

For those playing along, I did use specifically antagonistic language in the hopes it would spark discussion, and that worked swimmingly. I'm not actually pro or con multiclassing as an option; though not having to remember every potential interaction between class abilities that players can bring as a DM is quite pleasant. I've thoroughly enjoyed both types of characters. One thing I don't miss in the no-MC game is the agony of figuring out class breaks.

There's a cost to having multiclassing as an option, in that it requires your system to have its class levels as resources to spend, rather than as just an indicator of character power.

Back when we were playing 4e, I remember looking at the Pathfinder Unchained rogue, and wondering why they had such a bass-ackwards way of letting the rogue use Dex for attack/damage (Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, then Dex to damage for one weapon about every 6 levels), and why didn't they let the rogue or whoever just use Dex for their regular attacks with appropriate weapons, like they did in 4e, and not spend paragraphs on it.

And then I realized that the designers were afraid of people using level dips to get Dex to hit/damage, and wanted to make it more onerous for them to do so. I'm not sure why they should have been so afraid of it (I stopped hanging out on 3.5/PF optimization boards a long time ago), but I do find it amusing that 5e doesn't consider it to be that big a deal, as *anyone* can use Dex with a Finesse weapon and (with Xanathar's) only has to spend one level to use Cha.

I don't personally have a problem with multiclassing. It's a fairly obvious response to acquire more power in 5e, because classes have to have a little frontloading so they can do what they're supposed to do *and* so few games ever get to high levels, that the capstones are not likely to be seen very often, and even if you do see them the game's probably going to be done fairly soon anyway. And that's not even considering that many concepts do need some multiclassing to work. Of my five 5e characters I've played so far, though, none had reached a point where multiclassing would have been more helpful than just taking the next level of my main class.

[Pex]

Paladins have almost no ranged ability at all, for just a minor 2 level dip into warlock they get the best ranged cantrip in the game, that will always scale with them, essentially 2 extra smites per short rest, another floating invocation of their choice, and whatever patron ability they want, which lets face it is going to be Hexblade so they can use CHA to hit and damage.

all that for just 2 levels behind on getting to their level 6 ability which is the only one anyone cares about past level 2.

Bards have crap damage pretty much all around until they can cherry pick other classes lists, EB for them fixes their only real downside.

It just depends on when they take the 2 levels of warlock.

In my case I'm multiclassing my 8th level Paladin to Sorcerer. It is to shore up a weakness for lack of range attack (Fire Bolt) and AC (Shield spell) because I go two-weapon route since in this game great weapon style works on smites. I accept the weaknesses of the class. I don't resent it, but it has proven now to harm the party as a whole. Recently there was a combat I had absolutely nothing to do because it required range attack only. To engage in melee was suicide before you could even reach the enemy. The party lost my character's set of actions. It's not the first time the party lost a round or two from me for lack of effectiveness. When I'm in my element to smite I shine like the beautiful beacon a paladin is supposed to be, but when I'm out of my element the party becomes The Suck for it. No one else is having this problem.

So yes, I'm going to multiclass for the game mechanical benefit, become a stronger character for it, and I refuse to feel guilty about it. The roleplaying angle for it will happen in game.

[sithlordnergal]

In my case I'm multiclassing my 8th level Paladin to Sorcerer. It is to shore up a weakness for lack of range attack (Fire Bolt) and AC (Shield spell) because I go two-weapon route since in this game great weapon style works on smites. I accept the weaknesses of the class. I don't resent it, but it has proven now to harm the party as a whole. Recently there was a combat I had absolutely nothing to do because it required range attack only. To engage in melee was suicide before you could even reach the enemy. The party lost my character's set of actions. It's not the first time the party lost a round or two from me for lack of effectiveness. When I'm in my element to smite I shine like the beautiful beacon a paladin is supposed to be, but when I'm out of my element the party becomes The Suck for it. No one else is having this problem.

So yes, I'm going to multiclass for the game mechanical benefit, become a stronger character for it, and I refuse to feel guilty about it. The roleplaying angle for it will happen in game.

This right here. I first Multiclassed my Paladin into Sorcerer after being completely useless in about 5 encounters. One encounter I would have been useless even with Sorcerer because I ended up stuck on a cliff about 200 feet above the combat. The others though were caused because we were in an airship being attacked by flying beasts that didn't land. I was relegated to throwing a javelin and hoping it would hit for 1d6+3 non-magical damage

[Galactkaktus]

This right here. I first Multiclassed my Paladin into Sorcerer after being completely useless in about 5 encounters. One encounter I would have been useless even with Sorcerer because I ended up stuck on a cliff about 200 feet above the combat. The others though were caused because we were in an airship being attacked by flying beasts that didn't land. I was relegated to throwing a javelin and hoping it would hit for 1d6+3 non-magical damage

I have an honest question whould a dex based paladin be enough to make you useful enough in those kind of situations? A longbow has a good range of 150/600 the reason i'm interested in making a dex based paladin is that i think that the feat Elven accuracy whould go very nicely with oath of vengence vow of enmity but that feat doesn't work if i use strength.

[Dudewithknives]

I have an honest question whould a dex based paladin be enough to make you useful enough in those kind of situations? A longbow has a good range of 150/600 the reason i'm interested in making a dex based paladin is that i think that the feat Elven accuracy whould go very nicely with oath of vengence vow of enmity but that feat doesn't work if i use strength.

You could get by, but let's face it Paladins are smite machines, and you can't smite with a bow.

You could play a dex paladin and carry a bow for backup but it should never be your main weapon.

[Galactkaktus]

You could get by, but let's face it Paladins are smite machines, and you can't smite with a bow.

You could play a dex paladin and carry a bow for backup but it should never be your main weapon.

I don't want it as my main weapon i want it as a backup for the times when i can't melee. The idea is that if you hit you can smite if you use elven accuracy you will have super advantage so you should hit more often and you should have higher critt chance which should be good for smite. The downside is that it's once per rest.