General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[Tavar]

I think it's important to remember that, per word of God, the chances given for something to exalt in the books are not for actual demographic use, but for PC's to use. Basically, good game mechanics don't mesh with good demographic mechanics.

[Exthalion]

There is also a few other considerations besides safely exploiting the reproductive real estate of every female dynast.

First, there is the high casualty rates of dynasts. The make up of the legions and wyld hunt would consist mostly of young dynasts who are not yet married and who have no children. Even supernatural supersoldiers do occasionally take an arrow to the eye and die. That most terrestrials buy into their own divinity means a lot often 'lead from the front' which increases the number of glorious deaths.

That the above are also the group least likely to want to get tied down with family politics is another reason they are unlikely to start breeding which would automatically catapult them into high society where they would be expected to attend to all the minutia of house and realm.

Second there are the social reasons not to have children. Orgies as a nono have been pointed out, and the particularly licentious tererstrials would likely be on Maiden Tea almost constantly so as to prevent those messy dynastic scandals.

There is also the need, not as common in this day and age, to arrange for the inheritance of children. DBs don't get the good artifact background for nothing and exotic wonders don't exactly grow on trees (except in the wyld which is somewhat less than accommodating.) This requires accumulation of wealth and land which on the isle means getting it from someone else or getting involved in activities to produce it yourself. Throw in breaks for learning sorcery and terrestrial martial arts and you have even more time when it would not be convenient to have children.

Finally there is the fact that while there is a great pressure to have children most women do not want to be permanently pregnant breeding stock. If the males tried to force them into that role much ***kicking would ensue. So female DB get pregnant when they are good and ready and their surfboard sized chunk of magic rock is waiting to discuss it with anyone who tells them differently.

While not enough to account for the low numbers on their own these sorts of conditions help to bound out the huge estimates.

[golentan]

I think it's important to remember that, per word of God, the chances given for something to exalt in the books are not for actual demographic use, but for PC's to use. Basically, good game mechanics don't mesh with good demographic mechanics.

Yeah, see... here's the thing. The chances to exalt spontaneously serve no purpose except for NPCs (we know that some terrestrials exalt without obvious blood in their ancestry, any PCs who do so don't need to know that 1 in 5000 people will do so) or actually matches up with demographic calculations as appear in other locations in the case of the breeding rules so amazingly well that I am forced to call B.S. on this. Because for the demographics rules to actually match what's observed in the fluff, either the exaltation rate needs to be near zero or working as a bureaucrat for the Thousand Scales has to be about as dangerous as military service in Fallujah. Or we could admit that the people doing the fluff gave no thought to the demographics of people who could live into their third century and have children the whole time. And I don't see that having an order of magnitude more terrestrials is particularly setting breaking, except that once again fluff fanatics point out that there were only a million at the end of the first age (which is itself a *ludicrously* small number given initial populations of the size seen at the end of the primordial war and the fact that those generations had thousands of years to work and an initial breeding success rate of 100%) and that the second age should be that much more "diminished."

Basically, terrestrials can't get nice things because the writers and a good chunk of the player base hate them.

[The_Snark]

*shrug* I dunno, I'm not inclined to blame the authors for not running a bunch of population growth curves on fantasy societies. It'd be a headache and it wouldn't produce anything fun to read. If I were writing the books, I certainly wouldn't want to do it—and I actually studied ecology. My desire to crunch similar numbers for fantasy economics and other fields I'm not familiar with is less than zero.

So while I'd personally prefer to just avoid giving any number more specific than an order of magnitude, I can't really blame the authors for making up figures. I just gloss over the numbers and assume they're sensible.

Edit - also, how are you deriving the birth and death rates for your estimates?

[golentan]

For the death rate, I typically use historical death rates, knocking out old age related diseases (or rather reducing them by sufficient to give a life expectancy of 250-300 barring other illness or misfortune). Fractional birth rates (typically 1 birth per woman per 5-20 years over the course of her reproductive life, adjusted by exaltation rate as a percentage). I usually ignore dragonblooded men sleeping with mortal women in favor of assuming only dragonblooded/dragonblooded or occasionally dragonblood/patrician crosses, and normally ignore lost eggs except when they're the specific question.

The lowest estimate I ever calculated IIRC, with absolutely abysmal birth and exaltation rates, a hideous death rate, and a starting population of about 1200 dragonbloods after the great contagion wound up at about the canonical number. I find it hard to accept 1200 dragonbloods wouldn't have been swarmed under by the lunars in such a circumstance, frankly.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The lowest estimate I ever calculated IIRC, with absolutely abysmal birth and exaltation rates, a hideous death rate, and a starting population of about 1200 dragonbloods after the great contagion wound up at about the canonical number. I find it hard to accept 1200 dragonbloods wouldn't have been swarmed under by the lunars in such a circumstance, frankly.

Well, right after the Great Contagion, the Lunars immediately started fighting their own battles against Prince Balor's forces...

But yeah, saying there were only 12000 Dragon-Blooded by the time the Shogunate ended is a bit of a stretch.

[Tavar]

Where's the one in five thousand number from?

[golentan]

Where's the one in five thousand number from?

Dragonbloods book, chapter 2, pg. 58, paragraph 3.

But on average, Terrestrial Exaltation tends to occur at a ratio of about one in five to ten thousand mortals. This ratio tends to skew toward population density- larger communities usually have more terrestrials per thousand than a collection of smaller villages of equal population would.

[meschlum]

Creativity is its Own Reward

Shortly after the end of the Balorian Crusade, a remnant of the Raksha horde was captured and brought to the Blessed Isle to serve as a gift for the one who wold become the Empress. She was sufficiently amused by the pathetic once-nightmares to grant the least of their number a false chance at survival.

"Your life will be long," the cowering Fair Folk promised, "and filled with riches and pleasures. Yet..."

"Speak, or spend what remains of your existence in a cage of iron, was the young Empress's command.

"There are only a finite number of sensations a single body can experience. We, who are wise and generous, have learned to change our selves after a century or two, lest existence lose its zest."

"And for your freedom, or continued life, you'd offer me such a trick?" was the young Empress's query.

"Oh, certainly, and delights the likes of which words cannot convey."

"The Wyld is nothing of great import, and you are the least of its remnants. I hold the Sword, and MY power is supreme. You really thought to trick me with such clumsy lures?" was the young Empress's sudden interruption.

"I spoke nothing but the truth!"

"Foolish spawn of a curdled daydream and a clot of mud. You understand nothing of Creation. Perhaps we are limited, but ours is the power of invention - and creativity is its own reward." was the young Empress's final declaration.

"So be it."

And the Raksha was never seen again.

But on the Blessed Isle, the Dragon-blooded found that their numbers grew more slowly than before, as the ordinary means by which they disported themselves - pleasant as they were - grew less and less efficacious.

Despairing for the future of his line, the lord of the most puritan of the Dragon-blooded houses sought comfort in the arms of one who was not his spouse.

And it was good.

And she bore him a daughter.

With great reluctance, he set aside his first wife and wed the maid, only to find her as lacking in fertility as his first - and blessed with far less wit and spirit. Desperate to sire another child, he turned to yet another woman, and another... only to fail repeatedly. It was only when his first two wives caught him while he was intimate with his fifth paramour that the mircle recurred.

And so, slowly, Lord Cynis came to understand:

Creativity is its own reward.

To be fertile, the Dragonblooded must couple in ever new and exotic ways. Such is the blessing that the Empress wrested from the Raksha, that in their long lives they might never find life grow tedious with repetition.

5-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of the Living Kingdom - Creativity has an extensive reach. Some suspect it covers the entire Blessed Isle, if not more.
Curse of Definition - Dragonbloods are incapable of having children where Creativity may touch them. This effect can only be overcome by charms and stunts, and like stunts everywhere, requires using new techniques each time, if a child is to be born.
Mad God Mien - counter-magic does not affect Creativity


And It Does Not Snore Or Steal the Covers

While some folk blame Creativity for the odd behavior of the Dragon-blooded, more sensible people accuse the beast known as And It Does Not Snore... instead. This creature is known through folk tales and hearsay, and has never been seen by common folk.

Still, when one of the Children of the Dragons seeks to sratch that particular itch, the beast is never far. It can manifest at those times, taking on the appearance of the being most desired by the lucky Dragon-blood, and it behaves as its name demands once the encounter is complete. For the more determined or dutiful Dragon-bloods, it does not appear at all, but is content to interfere in the act itself, immaterially participating and replacing certain parts.

As it is a being of some power but no elemental affinity, the children born from such encounters are often heroic mortals or god-bloods, but lack the link to the Dragons that the Realm so prizes. Still, it is very pleasant in bed, and always lives up to its name.

5-dot Behemoth
Assumption of the Living Kingdom - And It... is immaterially present in a huge area. Much like Creativity, the full extent of its influence is uncertain.
Assumption of Dreams and Passion - when called upon, it can manifest as a dragon-blood's dream made flesh.
Assumption of Squid Form - when not called upon, it can still get certain... bits... into suitable ... places.
Surpassing Excellence - And It... is very good at contributing to its partner's fun.
Brilliant Glinting Lure - And It... is so much fun to be with a single scene of interaction will suffice for Dragon-bllods to for Intimacies with it.
Imposition of Law - And It... will always produce heroic or god-blood offspring, rather than Dragon-bloods. This effect can only be overcome by truly heroic measures, few of which are pleasant.
Untouchable Performer Technique - And It... is such a wonderful thing that people will not try to rid themselves of its presence.
Creator's Fugue - And It... is uniquely skilled at 'creating' new heroic mortals and god-bloods.
Swift Wings of Song - And It... tends to come (and go) first, especially in clinches.

[horngeek]

*snerk*

Oh, that's priceless...

[Gareth3]

I always thought the violent death rate for Dragon-Blooded was totally ridiculous. My take was that there was a strong stigma against dying in bed, so most very old DBs go out into the Threshold and pick fights with something big and supernatural.

[MickJay]

Dragonbloods do die fairly often. Border conflicts and wars, fighting the Anathema (both individual ones and their armies), defending the Realm against Fair Folk, occasional behemoths, unruly gods, etc. Then comes the Dynasty itself. Tough upbringing weeds out the weakest, then come various plots, conspiracies and so forth. Dagger, poison, 'accidents'. Heirs who can't wait to get their hands on beloved grandma's estate and who 'speed things up' a little. Surviving until one has a chance to die in bed is not that common.

As for exaltation rate among mortals... assuming an average mortal lifespan of 60 years (which is probably higher than the actual one), we should have about 100+ to 220+ 'lost egg' exaltations a year. Over the course of those 60 years we get 7000-14000 new Terrestrials just from exaltations among the mortal, non-patrician stock. Many of those would occur outside of the Realm, and this number, at least, seems plausible (considering, I imagine, higher than average death rate of the Lost Egg Terrestrials).

[Rikandur Azebol]

Wait what, Golentan ? Does it mean that actual DBs have Exalting offspring in 1 out of 5000 pregnancies ? Kinda silly for divine super-weapons made by Elemental Dragons and projected by Autobot.

[Tavar]

Wait what, Golentan ? Does it mean that actual DBs have Exalting offspring in 1 out of 5000 pregnancies ? Kinda silly for divine super-weapons made by Elemental Dragons and projected by Autobot.

Note this is only after the blood is diluted. In the original design, all children Exalted at age 7.

Also, I don't think that's the Exaltation numbers: those are, I believe, the number of dragonblooded per unit of population.

[MickJay]

Wait what, Golentan ? Does it mean that actual DBs have Exalting offspring in 1 out of 5000 pregnancies ? Kinda silly for divine super-weapons made by Elemental Dragons and projected by Autobot.

That was specifically about people who had a Terrestrial somewhere in their lineage, but who are not even among the patricians. According to the game mechanics, an offspring of actual, average Terrestrials has 50% chance of exalting (this rate can be higher and potentially go all the way up to 100% if the parents have very good Breeding, if the child is conceived and/or brought up in a particular type of manse, and if a Neomah gets involved). Chances of exaltation are still relatively high if: one of the parents is a Terrestrial and the other a patrician; if one of the parents if Terrestrial, the other an ordinary mortal; or even if both parents are 'merely' patricians.

This is, of course, working with rules for the game, but basically, if at least one of your grandparents was a Terrestrial, then you have at least about 10% chance of exalting.

[Sanguine]

Back when Compass: Autochthonia came out I read it feverishly, but smething, i don't remember what, kept me from finishing the last two chapters. I've finally got around to finishing them, and I came across this line.

...but great heroes do not let anything so trivial as the complete restructuring of their faith stand in the way of saving their god.

And I've just got to say: Best Line Ever!

[Tavar]

So, no thoughts on the Clinching re-write?

[golentan]

So, I'm writing a story based VERY heavily on exalted.

[Kyeudo]

So, no thoughts on the Clinching re-write?

I only glanced over it, but it mostly looked like you were still pretty screwed if you ever get grappled. The most major change seems to be you can knife the other guy at a penalty instead of being forced to contest the grapple every action.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So, I'm writing a story based VERY heavily on exalted.

And? .

[Tavar]

I only glanced over it, but it mostly looked like you were still pretty screwed if you ever get grappled. The most major change seems to be you can knife the other guy at a penalty instead of being forced to contest the grapple every action.

How? All it does it leverage an internal penalty, one that doesn't apply to the person you're grappling. If that is still too much, then Exalted can't have a clinching system.

[golentan]

And? .

And penguins are cute.

[Kyeudo]

How? All it does it leverage an internal penalty, one that doesn't apply to the person you're grappling. If that is still too much, then Exalted can't have a clinching system.

As I said, I only glanced at it. Giving it a second look, it now seems that clinching with your rules is not significantly different from punching the guy in the face with a stunt.

[Hiro Protagonest]

And penguins are cute.

But kittens are cuter!

[Tavar]

As I said, I only glanced at it. Giving it a second look, it now seems that clinching with your rules is not significantly different from punching the guy in the face with a stunt.

Combination of Damage, blockade movement, and lowering their DV/attack pools. Sounds about right for a no-investment combat maneuver.

[horngeek]

Since Shards is around the corner, who are characters you guys might use as inspiration (or rip off wholesale) for certain Shards?

For Exalted: Modern-

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Night Caste

[Xefas]

Since Shards is around the corner, who are characters you guys might use as inspiration (or rip off wholesale) for certain Shards?

I wonder what Manse Powers the Exalted Playboy Mansion has.

Also, Staff Sergeant Max Fightmaster. Partly because he already appears to have an Exalted name, but is a non-fictional person.

[Turalisj]

Since Shards is around the corner, who are characters you guys might use as inspiration (or rip off wholesale) for certain Shards?

For Exalted: Modern-

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Night Caste

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[Edge]

Since Shards is around the corner, who are characters you guys might use as inspiration (or rip off wholesale) for certain Shards?

For Exalted: Modern-

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Night Caste

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Adam Jensen, of Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Moonsilver or Soulsteel Caste.


The Stig, of Top Gear. Chosen of Journeys.


Spider-Man Noir, as a spider totem Full Moon.

[Volthawk]

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The Stig, of Top Gear. Chosen of Journeys.

Oh hell yes.