[PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

[Dire Reverend]

Another thing I noticed:

These suits also do not cost anything of the character unless he chooses to make them of special materials, like mithral or adamantine, and then the character must pay the material cost for the armor plus the masterwork cost of armor (150gp).

For most if not all special materials, the masterwork quality is included in the cost. Was this intentional?

[Veklim]

Erm, something spotted, Modular Armour states you 'become large size', it should almost certainly read you 'gain a size category', since not everyone entering this is guaranteed to be medium size...

[ErrantX]

OK, so its possible I did not read this thoroughly enough, as I am slightly short on time, but I noticed that the class has an initiator level, which is referenced in several places much the same way a magic-based class would reference a caster level, but at no point does the class gain any maneuvers or stances. Is this correct? And if so, what is the intent behind this? I thought initially that it might be a typo/holdover form a previous incarnation of the class, but it's mentioned in a few different places, which makes me think that's not the case... my second thought was that it was a way to give it a caster level-like number without actually giving the class a caster level, but then why not just reference class level? I feel I must be missing something obvious... but I am in fact missing it, and thus must ask. Thanks! (and/or sorry for a silly question...)

That was intentional, and I was wondering when someone would mention it. Some classes would naturally benefit from having an Initiator Level, so someone like the Iron Man or my previous class called the Generator have an initiator level. This is so if they were to ever multiclass into a class (such as from my Libram of Battle project, currently in need of a new webspace atm due to Google being evil) with an initiator level, this would put them a leg up on other classes. I believe that fighting classes should have initiator levels built in, like Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, Cavaliers, Gunslingers, and of course the humble Fighter, and plan to make archetypes for these in the Libram of Battle project. Regardless if you use martial maneuvers or not, this Initiator level doesn't really do any harm to have. If you do use them, great, if you don't, that's fine too (then this term of "initiator level" means evne less).

*drools*

When my kitten is not pestering me for fuss with her tiny, cute little vorpal claws I shall return with a PEACH and some cake. The cake is a lie.

There is one question I'd like you to answer first, brewer to brewer...how in the nine hells would this interact with my Bastion PrC do you think..? I'm tempted (highly tempted) to add an entire section to it for use with this class, that is if there's enough difference between them to make it worthwhile.

I'm liking the AI stuff especially, I'm rather interested in how this would run as 3.5 because if it all translates plainly enough I might well be testing this in my current campaign. It's oldskool pencil & paper and runs every Sunday so I may have some DM feedback pretty quickly.

I will have to look over your Bastion class to be able to tell you one way or the other. From the Saturday Morning Nostalgia contest that this class won, I wanted to see another's work called the Rocket Knight mixed with this class, so we'll have to see what Bastion is about to see how it would fit together.

I'd suggest a way to replace modifications more often than the class says. Maybe paying in gold to modify an existing suit, or taking a feat that allows you to change a single modification on one suit at the beginning of the day. Just two ideas.

Can I exchange more than one modification every even level? Could I potentially every even level switch all of my modifications

Two suggestions:
or

I wrote in some changes regarding this, check it out and let me know your thoughts.

Archetypes and that'd be neat to see.

In the planning!

Another thing I noticed:For most if not all special materials, the masterwork quality is included in the cost. Was this intentional?

Yup. Small balance factor cost.

Erm, something spotted, Modular Armour states you 'become large size', it should almost certainly read you 'gain a size category', since not everyone entering this is guaranteed to be medium size...

Agreed, good catch. I made a rookie assumption that everyone was Medium. Thank you!

-X

[BlackMKIII]

Don't have much to say in regards to the mechanics on this, really. It does look like it would be easy to make a broken character, but that's true of just about anything with someone willing to do it behind the wheel.

While it's fun to try and make specific heroes using what's provided in the books, seeing something like this makes me smile as it's much truer to the original character on which they're based. I'd love to see how this playtests to see exactly how an Iron Man would work in-world.

[ErrantX]

Don't have much to say in regards to the mechanics on this, really. It does look like it would be easy to make a broken character, but that's true of just about anything with someone willing to do it behind the wheel.

While it's fun to try and make specific heroes using what's provided in the books, seeing something like this makes me smile as it's much truer to the original character on which they're based. I'd love to see how this playtests to see exactly how an Iron Man would work in-world.

Well, it's definitely on the strong side. The real question is if it breaks into Tier 1 or 2. I aim for Tier 3, but sometimes I miss wildly. I'll settle for 2, but if I hit 1 then I need to beat it down. 3 is what we aim for.

I'd love to see it in action too. Maybe sooner than later!

-X

[Veklim]

OK, got around to reading all your mods, found a couple of small issues:

Elemental Resistance doesn't list Force Shields as a prerequisite.

Might be an idea to move the Modular Armour proviso in Powerful Build, put it at the end of the entry. As it reads just now, you could be forgiven for thinking that this also applies to the Modular Armour;

This does not improve the Iron Man's reach, nor does it cause him to take up more space, nor does he take size bonuses or penalties to attributes or attack roll penalties for his size.

More a note for clarification, but would make it read easier if this appeared before mentioning Modular Armour.

Might wanna consider making Extremis a requirement for Remote Summons, in addition to Repulsor Flight, due to the self donning thing (you don't even need to touch the armour for Remote Summons, making this a slightly better effect in itself). Only a suggestion though since I doubt it's much of an issue.

Stinger Rocket doesn't mention how many bays you may have, as it stands, you could indeed have infinity + 1 bays, and that's just silly
Figure it's an oversight, but since I don't know what you intended, may I suggest you consider offering this one as a base of maybe 3 bays, allowing for more by taking the same modification more than once..?

Otherwise, the class as a whole reads nicely and the chassis is solid, although if this were me, I would be tempted to make both Diplomacy and Bluff class skills, if only for chatting up women (or men) and talking your way out of (or into) trouble. These account for a large amount of Iron Man's out-of-combat options do they not?

As for power level, it's Tier 3. A REALLY bad build would produce a low Tier 3, and a carefully tweaked and optimised build could brush Tier 2's underbelly at a stretch because there is both shattering power and versatility, but would still be Tier 3.
That's not to say it isn't astonishingly capable of dealing out punishment in large doses, and the fact that you have multiple suits does give you a wide range of choices for your combat skillset, as long as you get some idea of what you're up against in a fight (and/or install Remote Summons on all reserve and 'special loadout' suits...)
Action economy looks good, glad to see a fair few swift and immediate action mods in there, didn't see any blatant abuses with that.

All in all, this looks good, and unless anyone manages to spot a horrific gaping flaw somewhere, I'll be using at least two of these (VERY different builds) as NPCs in my current campaign.

[ErrantX]

Okay, addressed Veklim's critiques here. Thank you very much!

Anything else anyone see? If not, I'm going to stamp this one completed and begin working on the next batch of projects.

-X

[DaTedinator]

Before I start, I should warn you that I don't really know Pathfinder, and am going off of 3.5. So feel free to ignore anything I say that results from system confusion.

Armor modifications may be traded out on even levels starting at 4th level. One such modification per suit at these levels may be change out on these even levels with another modification that the Iron Man possesses. Additionally, any modification that has differing tiers of strength (such as Flame Thrower) upgrade automatically as the Iron Man tinkers with them and improves upon their design to utilize their improved functions.

This paragraph is clunky; specifically, the bolded part. Unfortunately, one of the reasons I'm good at spotting clunky wording is because it's a big problem of mine, so I'm not positive how to tell you to fix it. I think I would probably move that line to the Suits section, though; it'd probably be easier to fit in, there.

I would also consider cutting the automatic upgrades, and just not having any armor modifications have prerequisites. Make it work more like the warlock; the warlock has a couple invocations that are blatant upgrades (the earthen grasp/stony grasp ones are what come to mind for me), and it doesn't let you automatically upgrade. As it is, I'm kind of confused as to how it works; when does he get the free upgrade? Does it replace the old armor modification known? Or are you saying that if you learn an upgraded armor modification, it can be added to a Suit for free?

An Iron Man can only utilize armor modifications while wearing his armor, when not wearing it he has no access to either ability.

I figure you meant to mention Repulsors here.

uits that are destroyed may be rebuilt at the cost of crafting or buying an additional traditional suit of masterwork armor, plus 1 hour of time per modification to be installed.

You assume here that a Suit is masterwork, but I don't think you actually ever state that it is.

Starting at 2nd level gains a +1 enhancement bonus to all suits of armor, and this bonus increases by +1 every four class levels.

Does this apply to all armor, or just his Suits? Either way, I think you should spell it out specifically.

When worn, these hit points are added to the character's total hit points as temporary hit points that may be replenished by any ability that would repair or restore a construct.

So I'm assuming any damage done to the temporary hit points reduces the armor's actual hit points? What happens if it's reduced to 0 hit points?

Additionally, the strain of using Modular Armor drains the character's battery reserve, costing the character ten points of battery power to fuel the armor's abilities once donned, and the character is fatigued after using it for 1d4 hours.

I'm a little confused. So it takes 10 battery points to activate, but then nothing after that? How long can he continue to wear it? And is he fatigued after wearing it for 1d4 hours, or is he fatigued for 1d4 hours after he takes it off?

--

I didn't feel nitpicky enough to point out the few tpyoes I noticed; I'd advise just giving the whole class a quick read-through to catch those before you label it "Finished."

As for the positives: it's a great class. It's solidly balanced, it's flavorful, it's fun to play, and it fits the flavor of the game AND the flavor of, you know, Iron Man. There's plenty of variety in the armor modifications, so it shouldn't be any trouble to make different Iron Men feel different, nor should it be hard for individual Iron Men to make their suits feel different. There aren't any dead levels, and there also aren't so many class features that it's a chore to read.

Very well done. Another gem for your crown!

[Dire Reverend]

Some more questions:

What's the status on the Archetypes?

What if I wanted to add normal magical enchantments to a suit of armor?

[ErrantX]

Before I start, I should warn you that I don't really know Pathfinder, and am going off of 3.5. So feel free to ignore anything I say that results from system confusion.

This class will have little difference in this regard.

This paragraph is clunky; specifically, the bolded part. Unfortunately, one of the reasons I'm good at spotting clunky wording is because it's a big problem of mine, so I'm not positive how to tell you to fix it. I think I would probably move that line to the Suits section, though; it'd probably be easier to fit in, there.

Addressed, hopefully its smoother.

I would also consider cutting the automatic upgrades, and just not having any armor modifications have prerequisites. Make it work more like the warlock; the warlock has a couple invocations that are blatant upgrades (the earthen grasp/stony grasp ones are what come to mind for me), and it doesn't let you automatically upgrade. As it is, I'm kind of confused as to how it works; when does he get the free upgrade? Does it replace the old armor modification known? Or are you saying that if you learn an upgraded armor modification, it can be added to a Suit for free?

I clarified this here as well.

I figure you meant to mention Repulsors here.

Yup.

You assume here that a Suit is masterwork, but I don't think you actually ever state that it is.

The first sentence in the Suits class feature actually says specifically that suits are Masterwork.

Does this apply to all armor, or just his Suits? Either way, I think you should spell it out specifically.

I made an assumption, and ya know what they say about people who assume? They're kinda dumb sometimes. Thank you

So I'm assuming any damage done to the temporary hit points reduces the armor's actual hit points? What happens if it's reduced to 0 hit points?

Serious revisions done in Construct Armor and a little to Suits.

I'm a little confused. So it takes 10 battery points to activate, but then nothing after that? How long can he continue to wear it? And is he fatigued after wearing it for 1d4 hours, or is he fatigued for 1d4 hours after he takes it off?

Clarified and rewrote this a little.

--

I didn't feel nitpicky enough to point out the few tpyoes I noticed; I'd advise just giving the whole class a quick read-through to catch those before you label it "Finished."

As for the positives: it's a great class. It's solidly balanced, it's flavorful, it's fun to play, and it fits the flavor of the game AND the flavor of, you know, Iron Man. There's plenty of variety in the armor modifications, so it shouldn't be any trouble to make different Iron Men feel different, nor should it be hard for individual Iron Men to make their suits feel different. There aren't any dead levels, and there also aren't so many class features that it's a chore to read.

Very well done. Another gem for your crown!

Thank you VERY much for such a thorough run down on the Iron Man, very appreciated and definitely forced me to think about what I was doing again. Closed up some significant holes. Check out the changes and let me know what you think!

-X

[Zahhak]

Holy crap, this is brilliant! There's a guy in my gaming group that almost always plays this kind of character.

[ErrantX]

OMG, this took me FOREVER to post the edits. Edits are in NOW finally. Also, not much more room left in the OP, hitting the 50k character ceiling now.

Some more questions:

What's the status on the Archetypes?

What if I wanted to add normal magical enchantments to a suit of armor?

Archetypes are coming, just wish I had had the foresight to add a 2nd empty post for me to add stuff, if not a 3rd. Added a lot to Suits actually, so people should check it out.

Holy crap, this is brilliant! There's a guy in my gaming group that almost always plays this kind of character.

Thank you, I'm glad you like it. If you show this to them and if you use it, let me know how it works out for you. I'd love actual play test data.

-X

[Zahhak]

My usual DM went through this and said no, finding it too overpowered. He said he would consider a modified version if it had been nuked somewhat, or altered into a prestige class.

[ErrantX]

My usual DM went through this and said no, finding it too overpowered. He said he would consider a modified version if it had been nuked somewhat, or altered into a prestige class.

*shrug* It's a warlock in armor at the end of the day, but c'est la vi.

A simple reduction in mods, less suits, etc, something like that may drop the power scale to tier 4 from tier 3.

-X

[Threadnaught]

Gonna be using one as an NPC in my games, Sahuagin with the Extreme Enviroments mod on all suits, his own personal suits so he can survive on land. Others he'll lend to the PCs so they can go underwater and help his, rather advanced civilization.
May have some actual playtest data after next Saturday.

Also, wondering what to do about Epic Levels when the time comes.

Edit: Armour mods are limited by Armour Bonus, does this limit include the boost to Armour Bonus on second level and every four levels after? I can't believe I forgot to ask this.

[DaTedinator]

With those changes, everything seems to be in order.

Again, great class!

[Dire Reverend]

I know these are Incredibly minor nitpicks, I thought you should know:

In the armor modifications section:

Medium Ballistic Spray has the prerequisite of Light Ballistic Attack, when it should be Light Ballistic Housing. (or vice versa)

Remote Summons has the prerequisites Extremis class feature and Repulsor Flight instead of Flight Repulsors. (or vice versa)

Gonna be using one as an NPC in my games, Sahuagin with the Extreme Enviroments mod on all suits, his own personal suits so he can survive on land. Others he'll lend to the PCs so they can go underwater and help his, rather advanced civilization.
May have some actual playtest data after next Saturday.

Also, wondering what to do about Epic Levels when the time comes.

Edit: Armour mods are limited by Armour Bonus, does this limit include the boost to Armour Bonus on second level and every four levels after? I can't believe I forgot to ask this.

Extreme Environments does not list "Abovesea" as an extreme environment, but It should be.

As for your edit, I am 90% sure that the bonus is counted towards that.

[ErrantX]

Gonna be using one as an NPC in my games, Sahuagin with the Extreme Enviroments mod on all suits, his own personal suits so he can survive on land. Others he'll lend to the PCs so they can go underwater and help his, rather advanced civilization.
May have some actual playtest data after next Saturday.

Also, wondering what to do about Epic Levels when the time comes.

Edit: Armour mods are limited by Armour Bonus, does this limit include the boost to Armour Bonus on second level and every four levels after? I can't believe I forgot to ask this.

Neat, very evil Atlantean sounding. Very cool. Epic levels don't actually exist in Pathfinder per se, but when I start putting together archetypes and such, I'll keep your comment in mind about Epic levels as well.

Yes, it does as far as mods go and the Armor class feature.

With those changes, everything seems to be in order.

Again, great class!

Thank you!

I know these are Incredibly minor nitpicks, I thought you should know:

In the armor modifications section:

Medium Ballistic Spray has the prerequisite of Light Ballistic Attack, when it should be Light Ballistic Housing. (or vice versa)

Remote Summons has the prerequisites Extremis class feature and Repulsor Flight instead of Flight Repulsors. (or vice versa)


Extreme Environments does not list "Abovesea" as an extreme environment, but It should be.

As for your edit, I am 90% sure that the bonus is counted towards that.

Thanks for the nitpicks, fixed em. And traditionally, unless you're a fish monster, I wouldn't call Abovesea an extreme environment. I'm going to leave it as is, but I will say in the example of the sahaguin Iron Man, above sea would count.

-X

[ErrantX]

Randomly decided to alter how Elemental Repulsors, allowing you to toggle between bludgeoning damage and the elemental type as a swift action.

That is all.

Archetype ideas or prestige class ideas anyone? Tell me what interests you.

-X

[Durazno]

We need an Umber Hulkbuster PrC, probably. And maybe a PrC representing an Iron Man who colludes with a sinister machine intelligence, thereby making him or her that much more like a warlock with armor?

Would heavy weapons (ala War Machine) and stealth armor be good archetypes to consider?

[Threadnaught]

Walking Artillery, sacrifice mobility for greater firepower and become a living turret of death.

Supreme Engineer, take control of technology, modifications that prevent others from gaining their bonuses from magic items. And maybe give it to you?

Dynamo, perfect the Battery, lessen the chance of a system failure and use the modifications more often.

Shock Trooper, focus on the Repulsors for combat, sacrificing mods, armour and even Battery power for the ability to become deadlier with Repulsor Blasts, Flight and Blades.

Steel Shadow, improve the Stealth Field, use trickery and decoys to your advantage.

Metal Titan, focusing on defensive abilities become a wall of steel, repel attackers with shields and a skin of iron.


Six basic specialist ideas there. Mobility, Firepower, Battery pool, Stealth, Defence and Control.
I think they all have the potential to make great use of the Iron Man class' features. And seeing them all listed, actually makes it difficult for me to decide which one to use. Some new mod ideas there too. Think about it, there's only one existing Stealth mod, the only debuff I've noticed is Tractor Beam, and there appears to be very little benefit to using a Repulsor Blade as opposed to your fists, the basic Repulsors and other mods.

[DaTedinator]

I think a cyborg-esque archetype could be interesting, with someone who just builds crap right into his body.

Somewhat along those lines, maybe a PrC tailored to Warforged.

[RFLS]

Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 4th level, an Iron Man learns to be more maneuverable while wearing his armor. Whenever he is wearing his armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

You have 5 listed levels at which he gains this bonus, but you explicitly cap it at +4. Was this intentional?

[ErrantX]

You have 5 listed levels at which he gains this bonus, but you explicitly cap it at +4. Was this intentional?

Fixed. Error on my part, initially I had it cap at 4, but then rearranged things and upped the cap to 5. Forgot to give the txt a facelift.


I'm compiling data on some archetypes and a couple Prestige Classes and I'll begin working on them tonight/this weekend. Keep ideas coming though!

I had an idea that was more or less an Iron Man / spellcasting class in a Prestige Class, that had some inspiration from the Warcaster PrC from the Iron Kingdoms RPG. If you've heard of it/are interested in that, in the spirit of that game...

SOUND OFF LIKE YOU'VE GOT A PAIR!

-X

[Threadnaught]

Powerful Build – (Full Plate only) The armor is built up with additional servos and height to make the wearer larger, stronger, and overall, more potent. The character counts as a Large sized creature for the purposes of determining bonuses for CMB and CMD, as well as the size of weapons he can wield. This does not improve the Iron Man's reach, nor does it cause him to take up more space, nor does he take size bonuses or penalties to attributes or attack roll penalties for his size. If the character is donning Modular Armor, this continues to carry through, allowing the Large-sized Modular Armor to wield Huge-sized weapons and count as Huge for the purposes of CMB and CMD checks.

I actually kept hoping you'd find this in one of your periodic updates. You made the mistake of assuming everything is Medium sized for two abilities and only fixed one of them, as this one wasn't previously pointed out.

[Dire Reverend]

Steel Shadow, improve the Stealth Field, use trickery and decoys to your advantage...

...Six basic specialist ideas there. Mobility, Firepower, Battery pool, Stealth, Defence and Control.
I think they all have the potential to make great use of the Iron Man class' features. And seeing them all listed, actually makes it difficult for me to decide which one to use. Some new mod ideas there too. Think about it, there's only one existing Stealth mod, the only debuff I've noticed is Tractor Beam, and there appears to be very little benefit to using a Repulsor Blade as opposed to your fists, the basic Repulsors and other mods.

For Steel shadow, maybe you can allow the cloaking device to be on halfplate armor.

How about a modification that allows you to deal Repulsor damage with any melee weapon in place of it's regular damage. You'd have to modify the weapon first though.

[ErrantX]

I actually kept hoping you'd find this in one of your periodic updates. You made the mistake of assuming everything is Medium sized for two abilities and only fixed one of them, as this one wasn't previously pointed out.

Fixed this, also changed Repulsor Blade to actually allow Strength to damage to actually make it worth doing.

-X

[Durazno]

Perhaps it could be something like a blastsword. I could imagine it as a feature that lets you add your repulsor damage to a critical hit or something.

[ErrantX]

Perhaps it could be something like a blastsword. I could imagine it as a feature that lets you add your repulsor damage to a critical hit or something.

The closest D&D analog to the Repulsor Blade is the Eldritch Glaive of the Warlock. It isn't a physical blade, its repulsor energy being used like a battering light saber.

-X

[Threadnaught]

Fixed this, also changed Repulsor Blade to actually allow Strength to damage to actually make it worth doing.

-X

The problem I have with the Repulsor Blade, isn't the damage, the damage is actually very high. Adding Strength to damage would do very little that the Blade doesn't already do, the problem is that it turns a useful ranged attack into a melee attack. Given that the Armour choice for Iron Man is Breast Plate, Half Plate and Full Plate, two out of three Iron Men (or rather 50% because who uses Half Plate?) are going to be slowed down and the Blade is going to be even less usable.

Dire Reverand has a good idea for the "Shock Trooper" advancement, another is to dual wield the Repulsor Blade and for it to do Slashing and Piercing damage at some point. Maybe gain the ability to ignore Hardness and pierce some forms of Damage Reduction. (this is all for specializing in the Repulsor Blade though)