need a god awfully cheesy build

[Athear]

Also the DM is allowing Drawbacks

[AvatarVecna]

Also the DM is allowing Drawbacks

I don't see how that's super-relevant. Drawbacks are very minor mechanical negatives you can take in exchange for additional very minor mechanical positives. If this was 3.5, and we were talking flaws and feats, it'd be a bit better.

[Athear]

I don't see how that's super-relevant. Drawbacks are very minor mechanical negatives you can take in exchange for additional very minor mechanical positives. If this was 3.5, and we were talking flaws and feats, it'd be a bit better.

by draw backs I meant flaws from 3.5

[Sagetim]

OMG I love this this reeks of blue cheeze. that is just mean.
though I did give up on the extra domain as I was thinking of cleric witch mystic theurge

Well, if you're going for theurging things, I have to urge you to consider True Necromancer instead, since it gets actual class abilities across it's entire progression and is like, one of two or three beyond 10th level prestige classes that are non-epic progressions. You'll get free uses of things ranging from shenanigans to wail of the banshee, and that's in addition to spell progression on both of your caster classes.

Witch is some primo stuff, you'll never get the bestest hexes with so few levels of it, but you can get slumber, the king of hexes, and mix in some evil eyes or misfortunes or what have you before you drop save or dies on your target. Most importantly for your cheese, it has blood money as a spell. And Age Resistance and all that chain of spells for when your character is knocking around at elderlyness and doesn't want to suffer the physical ability score penalties but doesn't want to go undead yet either.

Oh, and curses. Witches got curses. But yeah, if you pick up craft wonderous item along the way somewhere, you can maybe even make your own bag of holding to keep your undead awakened cat army of maneuver users in, so that while your enemy is busy looking at you, you can throw the bag so it falls open behind them and has a swarm of undead kung fu sneak attack cats come flying out of the bag to try and murder them with their surprise round and or 'you are flat footed because you were unaware of the cat swarm' thing. If you raise them as ghosts initially, they can even ignore most of the armor and shield bonuses that heavier armored targets will have. Or you could have a bag for both. Also you can fit more ghost cats in a bag of holding because they have no weight.

[Calthropstu]

Well, if you're going for theurging things, I have to urge you to consider True Necromancer instead, since it gets actual class abilities across it's entire progression and is like, one of two or three beyond 10th level prestige classes that are non-epic progressions. You'll get free uses of things ranging from shenanigans to wail of the banshee, and that's in addition to spell progression on both of your caster classes.

Witch is some primo stuff, you'll never get the bestest hexes with so few levels of it, but you can get slumber, the king of hexes, and mix in some evil eyes or misfortunes or what have you before you drop save or dies on your target. Most importantly for your cheese, it has blood money as a spell. And Age Resistance and all that chain of spells for when your character is knocking around at elderlyness and doesn't want to suffer the physical ability score penalties but doesn't want to go undead yet either.

Oh, and curses. Witches got curses. But yeah, if you pick up craft wonderous item along the way somewhere, you can maybe even make your own bag of holding to keep your undead awakened cat army of maneuver users in, so that while your enemy is busy looking at you, you can throw the bag so it falls open behind them and has a swarm of undead kung fu sneak attack cats come flying out of the bag to try and murder them with their surprise round and or 'you are flat footed because you were unaware of the cat swarm' thing. If you raise them as ghosts initially, they can even ignore most of the armor and shield bonuses that heavier armored targets will have. Or you could have a bag for both. Also you can fit more ghost cats in a bag of holding because they have no weight.

... I think we have a winner. Witch/cleric true necromancer old cat lady animating cat ghost swarms.
Bonus points if you talk like the old cat lady from family guy.

[Athear]

Okay yeah that would work.

abused some flaw cheese for more feats

[Sagetim]

As mentioned in your other thread (by Psyren) the True Necromancer doesn't actually have full advancement for casting classes across all it's levels. It staggers progression at 1 an 2, and 6 and 7, so you wind up getting 12/14 progression across the prestige class, with your other 6 levels eaten by cleric and witch just to qualify. One alternate thing to do then is to just take it to 5 and go Mystic Theurge after that. You might not get as many class abilities, but you'll get more casting progression by the end of it, 3 + 4 + 9 = 16, and prestigious spellcaster can get at least one of those to 17, with practiced spell caster in both to fill out missing caster level progression (but not spell levels), so you wind up with an effective *necromancy caster level of 21, have create undead 1/day, level 8 rebuking/energy channel?

Anyway, if that's getting to be too much of a mess, you could go for the more Single Ability Dependent route and go Witch/Archivist/Mystic Theurge/Dread Witch. Since you're not going to be able to advance both classes to caster level 17 in this route, you might as well get some cheese out of heroes of horror, for a 3 + 10 + 3 + prestigious spellcaster on dread witch to get you up to level 17 for spells per day on one of your classes. It means leaving one of them in the doldrums at 13 though. But there's nothing in Dread Witch that says you have to advance your arcane casting with it, so you can use it to finish out archivist's casting and wind up with some fear shenanigans to go hand in hand with your bag of ghost cats, and oh, by the way the archivist can learn every divine spell ever. The main downside being that dread witch has a lot of charisma based abilities, but whatever, you're throwing bags of ghost cats at people, terrifying them should be pretty easy and fits the theme.

*edit, forgot to specify necromancy. Also, if you don't need the 9th level slots specifically, you could go full True Necromancer, use practiced spellcaster to fill in up to 4 missing caster levels (for caster level, not spell level and per day), and wind up with 3 base + 4 practiced + 12 true necromancer + 4 necromantic potency = 23 caster level for your necromancy spells, which would include your control limit for animated undead.

Edit again: Oh, and you can use a ring of telekinesis for bag delivery and deployment. Also, True Necromancer levels give full advancement on rebuking, so you can use that to your advantage to pump out stronger channel energies (winding up with channeling of a 17th level cleric). Furthermore, there's at least one feat in pathfinder that you can grab to get a +4 to your control limit on undead and effective channeling level when affecting undead with channeling (it's part of the undead lord archetype, but it's a feat, so...yeah). And when in doubt, steal a page out of the campaign journals here on Gitip and buy up cows, herd those cows to your target location, kill those cows with channeling (and damage your opponents too, ha) and then proceed to animate dead those cows back up as skeletons to stampede your enemies to death, while having all that meat that is either a) fresh and edible or b) can be used with purify food and water to make it fresh and edible. Sell the meat, turn a profit, and then do what you will with your stampede of skeleton cows. If you can't find pricing for cows, Oxen are pretty cheap as I recall.

Oh, and if you want to get just plain silly, you could set the cows up to keep a treadmill going to power a factory of some kind, as mindless undead they have no need to feed, sleep, or complain about how tired their hooves are. The GM might rule that their hooves will eventually wear down, but that's okay, this is when you buy new cows to animate as skeletons for meat again, to sell the meat, replace your cow skeletons, and keep the whole thing going. Your main problem is going to be when the commoners start asking questions like 'where is our electrical power coming from?' or 'man, that mill just never turns off, but why?'

[Athear]

As mentioned in your other thread (by Psyren) the True Necromancer doesn't actually have full advancement for casting classes across all it's levels. It staggers progression at 1 an 2, and 6 and 7, so you wind up getting 12/14 progression across the prestige class, with your other 6 levels eaten by cleric and witch just to qualify. One alternate thing to do then is to just take it to 5 and go Mystic Theurge after that. You might not get as many class abilities, but you'll get more casting progression by the end of it, 3 + 4 + 9 = 16, and prestigious spellcaster can get at least one of those to 17, with practiced spell caster in both to fill out missing caster level progression (but not spell levels), so you wind up with an effective *necromancy caster level of 21, have create undead 1/day, level 8 rebuking/energy channel?

Anyway, if that's getting to be too much of a mess, you could go for the more Single Ability Dependent route and go Witch/Archivist/Mystic Theurge/Dread Witch. Since you're not going to be able to advance both classes to caster level 17 in this route, you might as well get some cheese out of heroes of horror, for a 3 + 10 + 3 + prestigious spellcaster on dread witch to get you up to level 17 for spells per day on one of your classes. It means leaving one of them in the doldrums at 13 though. But there's nothing in Dread Witch that says you have to advance your arcane casting with it, so you can use it to finish out archivist's casting and wind up with some fear shenanigans to go hand in hand with your bag of ghost cats, and oh, by the way the archivist can learn every divine spell ever. The main downside being that dread witch has a lot of charisma based abilities, but whatever, you're throwing bags of ghost cats at people, terrifying them should be pretty easy and fits the theme.

*edit, forgot to specify necromancy. Also, if you don't need the 9th level slots specifically, you could go full True Necromancer, use practiced spellcaster to fill in up to 4 missing caster levels (for caster level, not spell level and per day), and wind up with 3 base + 4 practiced + 12 true necromancer + 4 necromantic potency = 23 caster level for your necromancy spells, which would include your control limit for animated undead.

Edit again: Oh, and you can use a ring of telekinesis for bag delivery and deployment. Also, True Necromancer levels give full advancement on rebuking, so you can use that to your advantage to pump out stronger channel energies (winding up with channeling of a 17th level cleric). Furthermore, there's at least one feat in pathfinder that you can grab to get a +4 to your control limit on undead and effective channeling level when affecting undead with channeling (it's part of the undead lord archetype, but it's a feat, so...yeah). And when in doubt, steal a page out of the campaign journals here on Gitip and buy up cows, herd those cows to your target location, kill those cows with channeling (and damage your opponents too, ha) and then proceed to animate dead those cows back up as skeletons to stampede your enemies to death, while having all that meat that is either a) fresh and edible or b) can be used with purify food and water to make it fresh and edible. Sell the meat, turn a profit, and then do what you will with your stampede of skeleton cows. If you can't find pricing for cows, Oxen are pretty cheap as I recall.

Oh, and if you want to get just plain silly, you could set the cows up to keep a treadmill going to power a factory of some kind, as mindless undead they have no need to feed, sleep, or complain about how tired their hooves are. The GM might rule that their hooves will eventually wear down, but that's okay, this is when you buy new cows to animate as skeletons for meat again, to sell the meat, replace your cow skeletons, and keep the whole thing going. Your main problem is going to be when the commoners start asking questions like 'where is our electrical power coming from?' or 'man, that mill just never turns off, but why?'

SageTim I love this brand of cheeze also if the peasants start asking questions well they will just have to disappear in the night...

[Sagetim]

I mean, yeah, but don't forget to look into using special materials and possibly the sacrifice rules from the book of vile darkness. Why? Just for more cheese. When you have enough money, invest in a Thinuan sacrifical dagger, for the +4 to knowlege religion checks when sacrificing blokes, and the whole 'trap their soul in the dagger' part too. Proceed to sacrifice people to your dark god for dark craft gold and xp, then turn around and use that dark craft gold and xp and soul to craft whatever magic items you need (souls are worth 10 xp for magic item crafting). If you're finding yourself with an abundance of souls from this process, use them to craft scrolls (also worth asking if you're using pathfinder rules for item creation, in which case you don't need to worry about dark craft xp, souls for xp, and so on). That doesn't mean you can't trade the souls for other stuff though, like regularly summoning a particular devil to be your soul accountant with hell or something.

[Eisfalken]

Honestly, Dread Necromancer from 3.5 is probably a down-and-dirty easier path into necro-shenanigans. I'm sure other paths have more optimization, but you get an awful lot of necromancy utility right in that one class, all the way up to 20.

The basic class abilities are great. Rebuke/command, at-will negative damage (to heal undead or hurt enemies), loads of spell slots, and you automatically know all the spells you can cast of a given level (none of that fiddling around like sorcerers do). Halfway through you'd have better undead minions and a familiar (meaning you can grab Imp. Familiar to upgrade to an imp or something useful). The resistance to physical damage and stuff is just icing on the cake. Drawback is, you suck at melee like sorcerers and other full spellcasters tend to.

If you want, you can dip other full casting PrCs for tricks, and still be undead: get the necropolitan template from LM, get Craft Wondrous Item, and pick up the spellstiched template from Complete Arcane for yourself. Spellstiched isn't just for minions; you can use it on yourself if you're undead, giving you amazing abilities if you keep a high Wisdom score (so don't dump it).

You can gish this thing as normal (duskblade entry, with spellsword/ab-champ/EK to cap), but you lose out on a lot of your dread necro abilities doing so. If you want to be a "melee-mancer" though, this isn't a bad idea: you have so many good touch-cast direct damage spells, and you have a lot of spell slots you can blow on Arcane Strike or ab-champ abilities if you run into enemies that laugh at negative energy spells. And there's something powerful about the idea of a necromantic gish leading a private army of the dead and damned into battle. You can even call up some fiends with the planar binding spells, if you need that real boost of evil.

It's not the most earth-shattering optimized build, but I think you'd like the simplicity and forcefulness of dread necromancer, honestly. Doesn't take an encyclopedic knowledge of the game, only requires a few tricky feats and other options to really max out, and really does have all the flavor they've been trying to get with necromancers since 1st edition.

[Athear]

I mean, yeah, but don't forget to look into using special materials and possibly the sacrifice rules from the book of vile darkness. Why? Just for more cheese. When you have enough money, invest in a Thinuan sacrifical dagger, for the +4 to knowlege religion checks when sacrificing blokes, and the whole 'trap their soul in the dagger' part too. Proceed to sacrifice people to your dark god for dark craft gold and xp, then turn around and use that dark craft gold and xp and soul to craft whatever magic items you need (souls are worth 10 xp for magic item crafting). If you're finding yourself with an abundance of souls from this process, use them to craft scrolls (also worth asking if you're using pathfinder rules for item creation, in which case you don't need to worry about dark craft xp, souls for xp, and so on). That doesn't mean you can't trade the souls for other stuff though, like regularly summoning a particular devil to be your soul accountant with hell or something.

Sagetim you are now officially my best friend on this site lol this is just getting disgusting.

[Athear]

Honestly, Dread Necromancer from 3.5 is probably a down-and-dirty easier path into necro-shenanigans. I'm sure other paths have more optimization, but you get an awful lot of necromancy utility right in that one class, all the way up to 20.

The basic class abilities are great. Rebuke/command, at-will negative damage (to heal undead or hurt enemies), loads of spell slots, and you automatically know all the spells you can cast of a given level (none of that fiddling around like sorcerers do). Halfway through you'd have better undead minions and a familiar (meaning you can grab Imp. Familiar to upgrade to an imp or something useful). The resistance to physical damage and stuff is just icing on the cake. Drawback is, you suck at melee like sorcerers and other full spellcasters tend to.

If you want, you can dip other full casting PrCs for tricks, and still be undead: get the necropolitan template from LM, get Craft Wondrous Item, and pick up the spellstiched template from Complete Arcane for yourself. Spellstiched isn't just for minions; you can use it on yourself if you're undead, giving you amazing abilities if you keep a high Wisdom score (so don't dump it).

You can gish this thing as normal (duskblade entry, with spellsword/ab-champ/EK to cap), but you lose out on a lot of your dread necro abilities doing so. If you want to be a "melee-mancer" though, this isn't a bad idea: you have so many good touch-cast direct damage spells, and you have a lot of spell slots you can blow on Arcane Strike or ab-champ abilities if you run into enemies that laugh at negative energy spells. And there's something powerful about the idea of a necromantic gish leading a private army of the dead and damned into battle. You can even call up some fiends with the planar binding spells, if you need that real boost of evil.

It's not the most earth-shattering optimized build, but I think you'd like the simplicity and forcefulness of dread necromancer, honestly. Doesn't take an encyclopedic knowledge of the game, only requires a few tricky feats and other options to really max out, and really does have all the flavor they've been trying to get with necromancers since 1st edition.

As good as it is I prefer the versitility of the cleric and the witch gets some nice spells and hexes are well just mean. so I probably will stick with the cleric/witch/ true necromancer Our DM wants us to try to break his game this is a test for him so he wants too see the worst cheese people can come up with.

[Calthropstu]

Bonus cheese: Give the character skill ranks in Craft: Cheese.

[Sagetim]

for added cheese, if it hits epic level you can research a spell that creates life, then proceed to start generating your own true believers who are perfectly okay with you sacrificing them for more power. You can then proceed to limitlessly (if slowly) fuel even epic item crafting with little to no real cost, Or, you can start saving up your peoples until you hit a roll over point where their worship brings about your apotheosis and you ascend to divinity. You may not fight the gods with you bag full of ghost cats until they learn to accept the fact that you are also a god now and they better get used to it.

[Athear]

Okay so my build so far.
Str: 17
Dex: 10
con: 17
Int: 20
wis: 21
cha: 20

cleric: 3
witch: 2


Skills
+10 appaise
+10 diplomacy
+06 fly
+10 heal
+10 Intimidate
+10 knowledge Arcana
+10 Knowledge history
+10 knowledge Nature
+10 knowledge planes
+10 knowledge religion
+09 sense motive
+09 spell craft
+09 UMD

(Un)death (the one that gives extra turning)/ decay domains

Feats: Tomb tainted soul (flaw), Mother cyst (flaw), corpse crafter (flaw), Undead leadership (flaw), vile leadership (flaw), spell focus necromancy or evocation (flaw), meta magic school focus, fell drain, energy substitution (cold)

Special abilities:
Darkvision 60ft, draconic heritage: wings or breath (still not sure), Aura, channel energy 1d6, domains, Orisons, cantrips, Hex, Patron spells (death), witches familiar, hex

Flaws: terrible tumbler, Loud, Haunting of the past, skinny dipper, fear of dogs.

Witches spells
lvl 0: arcane mark, Bleed, dancing lights, Daze, detect magic, detect poison, guidance, light, mending, message, putrify food and drink, read magic, resistance, stabilize, touch fatigue
Lvl 1: Blood money, burning hands, chill touch, deathwatch, Ill omen, obscuring mist, Ray of enfeeblement, ray of sickening, restore corpse, touch of combustion,


so if any one has edits or advice for changes let me know I was looking at the Utter cold necromancer. seems nice though I still will go true necromancer.

[Maximum Carnage]

Okay so new cheez needed too this game will utilize All PF and All 3.5 books.
I wish to build the most broken cleric necromancer I can build.

Why?
Will that be fun for you?
Will that make the DM and the other players in your game have more fun?
Are you trying to literally break your campaign?

I've never understood these requests for ridiculous cheese builds.

[Athear]

Why?
Will that be fun for you?
Will that make the DM and the other players in your game have more fun?
Are you trying to literally break your campaign?

I've never understood these requests for ridiculous cheese builds.

this was at the GM's request he wants to see whats the worst and most broken things the players a can throw at him. In his game we are meant to be neigh unkillable gods amoung men.
so yes I beleive it will make it more likeable for my gm.
and yes he wants us to literally break his game.
will this be more fun for me personally, not really actually trying to build the most OP build of my life has actually been stressful. I think it will be fun to play but the research and the hours and weeks of work onto of my regular gives has been stressful.
again this is a favour to a friend he wants to see the strongest and most over powered builds in the game.

[Goaty14]

Okay so my build so far...
Skills
+06 fly

Pretty sure fly isn't a skill...

[Athear]

Pretty sure fly isn't a skill...

It is in pathfinder.

[Calthropstu]

It is in pathfinder.

Yeah, pathfinder discussions make a lot of 3.5 people go "huh?"
Fly as a skill was something pf did very right.

[Athear]

there where some really nice D&D decay spells I saw for clerics and wizard/Sorcerers you have any Ideas what it might have been

[Footman]

If you can throw in 1 Lvl from the Juju Oracle of Pathfinder in nets you this nice Revelation:

Spirit Vessels (Su): You can channel wendo spirits into lifeless bodies, reanimating them to aid you. When using the animate dead spell, you can control 6 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level rather than 4 HD. In addition, any zombies or juju zombies you create using animate dead, create undead, or similar spells possess maximum hit points.

You could go for the Walker in the Waste 3.5 Prestiege Class, later to become a Full blown Lich.
(If you want to be a Lich Necromancer, although the Fluff is very tied to the Desert, and the True Necromancer is probably better mechanically.)

I also advise the "Prestigious Spellcaster" Feat, from Pathfinder so you won't lose Spell progression.

The Blood Money Feat from Pathfinder has already been mentiond.

[Sagetim]

Since someone already did the honors of the Thread Necromancy, I figure it's worth pointing out that the Fabricate spell (for the arcane list part of your spellcasting) is hilariously broken in 3.5. It might still be as broken in Pathfinder, but the end result is that if you follow the RAW on the spell, you can use it to triple the value of something (say, a pile of obsidian gems) by crafting them into a finely cut obsidian gem, then repeat the process again and again, each time tripling the value and making craft (jeweler) checks until you have enough obsidian in value, and ending with crafting a pile of obsidian dust or some kind of thin tree structure that you can break discretely valued chunks off for casting your animation spells.

I mean, someone else had a thread about abusing Fabricate for money (to make fund/make golems) so might as well mention it here for animating cat ghosts for your bag of holding.

[Athear]

Since someone already did the honors of the Thread Necromancy, I figure it's worth pointing out that the Fabricate spell (for the arcane list part of your spellcasting) is hilariously broken in 3.5. It might still be as broken in Pathfinder, but the end result is that if you follow the RAW on the spell, you can use it to triple the value of something (say, a pile of obsidian gems) by crafting them into a finely cut obsidian gem, then repeat the process again and again, each time tripling the value and making craft (jeweler) checks until you have enough obsidian in value, and ending with crafting a pile of obsidian dust or some kind of thin tree structure that you can break discretely valued chunks off for casting your animation spells.

I mean, someone else had a thread about abusing Fabricate for money (to make fund/make golems) so might as well mention it here for animating cat ghosts for your bag of holding.

Lul thats awesome But I was looking more specifically at some of the disease/ decay themed spells that I could ask my DM about.