Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Gilphon]

If you're asking which is more likely, I'd say him being at level 14, since I can't imagine be that far behind V, level-wise. If you're asking what we should go with… well, it'd say it's not conclusive evidence either way, and should therefore just be tucked away in our back pocket until we can use it prove something.

Also, it's worth noting that if he has 24 wis, then he's not level 15, since even a max roll with Enervation wouldn't have killed Holy Word if he was. Unless, of course, he had some other level 7 spell prepared that he wanted to save for later.

[Math_Mage]

Another thing I just realised: #845 shows that Durkon could cast Resurrection twice in one day. Since Resurrection is not on any Cleric Domain spell, that means he has two non-domain level seven spell slots. The explaination for this is either he's reached level 14, or he has a Wisdom of at least 24. What do we think it is?

Common sense analysis says level 14. However, not only are we unable to say for sure, we also don't know whether or not the Thor domain grants resurrection.

[zimmerwald1915]

Considering that the possibility of Durkon having 24 Wisdom was marshalled in order to defeat the argument for him being level 15, it should be equally as strong against the argument for him being level 14. Like the posters above, I do believe that Durkon's higher-level than that, but there's no way to prove it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Not that it makes much difference, since she's dead now, but Miko should have at least 15 class levels. She'd need them all in order to be able to take all the feats she has listed. She should also be listed with "either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows" if she's listed as Monk 2+.

No, this is not a shameless bump. You should feel ashamed for thinking such a thing.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, I guess we know what Z's "unspecified acid spell" is now. And that he has the Empower Spell feat.

[RMS Oceanic]

Added Z's spell and feat.

I notice Malack is flying unaided. Are there any theories about what's letting him do that, or is it too soon to speculate?

[Gift Jeraff]

Probably Zz'dtri's houseruled Fly spell.

I would also say Z has Widen Spell, since that's definitely more than 10 feet, but that could easily be creative liberties on the Giant's part.

[zimmerwald1915]

Probably Zz'dtri's houseruled Fly spell.

I would also say Z has Widen Spell, since that's definitely more than 10 feet, but that could easily be creative liberties on the Giant's part.

The diameter would be 20 feet, which is broadly consistent with the dimensions of the mastaba. Also, an Empowered Widened Vitriolic Sphere would be a tenth-level spell, and I don't think Zz'dtri has epic spell slots just yet

[RMS Oceanic]

The diameter would be 20 feet, which is broadly consistent with the dimensions of the mastaba. Also, an Empowered Widened Vitriolic Sphere would be a tenth-level spell, and I don't think Zz'dtri has epic spell slots just yet

Who says he empowered that first shot?

But seriously, I don't think there's enough evidence to say for sure anyway.

[zimmerwald1915]

Who says he empowered that first shot?

Touche, I suppose.

[Psyren]

Always good to see more evidence that Spell Compendium is in play.

[Chronos]

Assuming that Kilkil's statement of 8% chance of a kill is accurate, given what he knows, and assuming that we can agree on what he knows, we might be able to deduce something about the Order's levels and/or Con scores. I'd be up to doing the calculations, I think, but first I want to see if we can agree on the assumptions. First, do we assume that Kilkil is doing the math right? Second, do we assume that he knows the class(es) and level of everyone in the Order? I think the answer to the first is "yes" (he's portrayed as rather a nerd, and he presumably wouldn't give a number that precise if he didn't actually calculate it), and that the answer to the second is also "yes" (he knew Enor and Ganji's level somehow, after all). I would not expect him to know the Order's exact HP, though, so his calculation must have been based on that uncertainty.

[Douglas]

I think there's a rather more critical question you're not considering: Did The Giant bother to actually do the math?

I believe the answer is "almost certainly not", and the true source of the 8% figure is the author picking something that sounded reasonable to him without any in depth analysis. There are some authors who would take pains to ensure such a numerical figure is accurate. Rich Burlew is not one of them. Thus, it is useless for any actual calculation purpose and should be taken only as an indication that Kilkil is the kind of character who would do such calculations.

If this comic were written by David Weber, for example, I would be much more inclined to take the 8% seriously (though the complexity of math required for it is high even for him so I still wouldn't put a great deal of weight on it). As is, I think we should ignore it.

[Chronos]

Yeah, I didn't think Rich would be the type to do the calculations; I was just thinking he might have found a calculator online that gives the odds of Xd6 damage killing a level Y character of class Z.

And really, the calculation isn't all that difficult, if you already know what characters you're dealing with. The tricky part was going to be working backwards, to determine the characters given the percentage.

[zimmerwald1915]

Technically, if we've pinned down a minimum level for a character, we also have pinned down their minimum hit points. Let's assume that the minimum possible CON for an OOTS character is 3 (or 1 in V's case, or 5 in Durkon's), consistent with a 3d6 ability score generation system. That's a -4 CON modifier (-5 for V, -3 for Durkon). Let's then assume that each character rolled a 1 on every HD except the first. At first level, they would have gained max HP + CON mod, consistent with page 6 of the PHB. Each subsequent level, they would have gained 1 HP, consistent with page 9 of the PHB. This leaves us with the following minimum HPs per character:

17 (18 pre-Resurrection)
19
17
15
16
15

Obviously, these totals have some flaws. Roy, for instance, must have had at least 25 HP (enough to survive a Meteor Swarm to the face) at level 13. Similarly, Vaarsuvius must have at least 28 HP in order to have survived a Lightning Bolt, two hand crossbow Sneak Attacks, and a Vitriolic Sphere against which she failed her save (the acid stayed on her after the first round). We cannot, however, be sure where "extra" HP like this may have come from, whether it's from having a CON over 3, or from rolling high enough to give more than 1 HP per new level.

EDIT: this actually allows us to fix V's minimum CON. Without a feat - which her conversation with Belkar in Xykon's throne room in the Dungeon of Dorukan probably excludes - she can't have more than 28 HPs at level 15 without having at least a 6 CON. Even then, she'd need to roll twelve 4s and two 3s on her hit dice for levels 2 through 15 in order to make the total of 28 HP. Haley's minimum CON is also fixed; since it's higher than V's, her minimum CON is 7.

[Kurald Galain]

EDIT: this actually allows us to fix V's minimum CON.

Hey, that's pretty good! What about the other characters - too high hit dice to say anything about con?

[zimmerwald1915]

Hey, that's pretty good! What about the other characters - too high hit dice to say anything about con?

Thanks, I believe this is the first time an OOTSer's minimum CON has actually been fixed.

Well, like I said, Haley has to have at least 7 CON, but that's derived from comparing her CON with V's. The method I used to fix V's minimum CON involved computing the minimum damage it was possible for her to take in a given fight, then assuming maximum rolls on her hit dice, then seeing what CON would be necessary to make up the totals. Obviously, as the hit dice get bigger, this method becomes less useful, as the CON needed to make up the totals gets smaller.

I have, however, managed to come to some conclusions about Roy based on his dragontop fight with Xykon. Before dying to falling damage, he soaked two Finger of Death spells (one in strip 430, one in strip 434) and of course the Meteor Swarm in strip 442. Now, I don't want to start up a debate about Xykon's level again, so I'll use the figure quoted in the OP: 21. That means his Finger of Death deals at least 24 damage. Since all four spheres of his Meteor Swarm hit Roy, the spell would deal at least 32 points of damage (damage type is not important since Roy has neither DR nor fire resistance). That means Roy had to have at least 81 hit points at level 13, because he survived that barrage - only to die to falling damage.

As I said in the post where I puzzled out V's CON, Belkar, Elan, Haley, and Roy have minimum CONs of 3. However, if Roy rolled 10s on all his HD, with a CON of 3 he'd still only have 78 HP at level 13. So Roy needs at least a CON of 4.

EDIT: Incidentally, based on V's fight with Xykon, I suspect I may have lowballed her minimum CON. As I point out here, she had to have taken at least 30 points of HP damage and at least 1 HP of nonlethal damage in her fight with Xykon. With the CON of 6 I've given her, she'd only have 26 HP at that point - not enough to soak even Xykon's absolute minimum damage and still remain conscious. Then again, she did have Bear's Endurance up at the start of the fight, which would have given her 54 HP to work with. But per the rules of the Soul Splice, it would not have survived Ganonron's and Jephton's departures even if it did survive Xykon's Superb Dispelling.

FURTHER EDIT: I've redone the math, and V would need at least a CON of 8 to have 32 or more HP at level 14 - when she fought Xykon. This puts Haley's minimum CON at 9.

FURTHER FURTHER EDIT: Giving V a CON of 8, however, poses some problems with the Giant's description of the Miko fight. According to him, Miko was able to bring V from full HP to -1 (a precise figure) with a single critical hit from her katana. A katana has a critical multiplier of x2, and Miko has a listed STR modifier of 1. A critical strike from her katana, if her listed stats are correct, would therefore have dealt a maximum damage of 22. V at level 12 with 8 CON would have had a minimum HP of 26 (as she'd need to make up the total of 32 HP between the Miko fight and the Xykon fight). Where is this extra five damage coming from? Either Miko wielded a +3 katana and her STR is listed correctly, or her katana was not enchanted and she had a STR of 18, or some combination of the two must be true.

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh, hello three Lightning Bolt traps. I didn't see you there. Your presence means that V must have taken at least an additional 6 points of damage (5d6 ref half for each trap) during the Xykon fight, pushing her minimum HP from 32 to 38. This is still doable without having to bump V's CON again, but makes the amount of finagling we need to do with Miko's STR and katana more difficult. A level 12 V would need at least 32 HP to have 38 HP by level 14. Miko would need to deal 33 points of damage on her critical hit. She'd thus need at least a +7 modifier to damage with her katana. This modifier is impossible to achieve while keeping her STR modifier +1 and her katana non-Epic. So to fit both the Giant's description of the Miko fight and my estimated HP requirements for V in the Xykon fight, Miko needs either a 14-15 STR and a +5 katana, a 16-17 STR and a +4 katana, an 18-19 STR and a +3 katana...well, you get the idea.

[Crusher]

We're unlikely to ever nail down Miko's STR at this point, but the general odds of a level 12 (and possibly somewhat higher) character having an enchanted weapon seems a whole lot higher than the chance of her using an unenchanted weapon. I don't think we could put down for certain that she's got an 18 STR and a +5 katana, but a combination that allows for your higher requirement doesn't seem unreasonable.

[zimmerwald1915]

We're unlikely to ever nail down Miko's STR at this point, but the general odds of a level 12 (and possibly somewhat higher) character having an enchanted weapon seems a whole lot higher than the chance of her using an unenchanted weapon. I don't think we could put down for certain that she's got an 18 STR and a +5 katana, but a combination that allows for your higher requirement doesn't seem unreasonable.

Well, as I said earlier in the thread, in order to have all the feats with which she is listed, Miko needs to be at least level 15. Roy received his first +5 weapon at level 13, while Haley received her first +5 weapon at level 15, and her first +4 weapon before level 10. So I agree that Miko's katana probably bears a hefty enchantment.

EDIT: I was wrong about Miko needing a STR modifier higher than +1. I missed Windstriker's attack on V, which would have dealt 1d6+4 points of additional damage before Miko critted. If Miko had a strength of 13, and a +1 katana, a single crit from her, plus a hoof attack from Windstriker could have brought V to -1 HP.

Back to Haley's CON, for a moment though. How are we to evaluate her statement that she doesn't have "an elf's Constitution"? Is she merely implying that she has a higher Constitution than V, or that her actual modifier is higher?

[zimmerwald1915]

On another note, there are now three OOTS members of whom only one ability score is not known to be higher than their racial minimum.

STR 24, DEX 3, CON 4, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 12
STR 13, DEX 20, CON 9, INT 12, WIS 3, CHA 12
STR 5, DEX 5, CON 8, INT 23, WIS 10, CHA 6

So, folks, anyone care to place bets on which will be assigned a non-racial minimum first? Will it be Roy's DEX, Haley's WIS, or V's DEX?

[Lvl45DM!]

An elf does not mean Varsuuvius. It's a racial slur not something to be geeked

[Kish]

Nale has no Wisdom.

Also, Belkar with Animal Ken? Is this because he knows cats are lactose-intolerant? And Haley should totally have five dots each in Manipulation and Subterfuge, she's supposed to be an amazing liar.

[lord_khaine]

EDIT: I was wrong about Miko needing a STR modifier higher than +1. I missed Windstriker's attack on V, which would have dealt 1d6+4 points of additional damage before Miko critted. If Miko had a strength of 13, and a +1 katana, a single crit from her, plus a hoof attack from Windstriker could have brought V to -1 HP.

But what about Miko's power attack feat?

The use of that could have increased the damage by a lot, and it would be crazy for her to not use the feat when attacking a flat-footed mage.

[zimmerwald1915]

But what about Miko's power attack feat?

The use of that could have increased the damage by a lot, and it would be crazy for her to not use the feat when attacking a flat-footed mage.

You're correct. Miko does not need a +1 katana to make up her damage. This, however, says nothing about anyone's CON, which is the real point of the exercise. V's minimum CON remains 8.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, fixed some links for Durkon's skills as discussed earlier. Regarding Heat Blisters, I just realized that ThorPrayer was discontinued in strip #40, so even if Durkon had the spell at some point he doesn't any more. I think his speaking Giant is mentioned in SSDT.

I notice Malack is flying unaided. Are there any theories about what's letting him do that, or is it too soon to speculate?

As a cleric, he can cast Wind Walk; it's the same level as Harm. Or he could have the Travel domain and use it to cast Fly. I'm sure there's other cleric spells with a similar effect.

Based on comic 847, I think that Thog, Yukyuk, and Qarr should be moved to the "former members" section (which is listed alphabetically). I find it likely that Thog will return to the LG at some point, but presently he's not a member.

Vaarsuvius must have at least 28 HP in order to have survived a Lightning Bolt, two hand crossbow Sneak Attacks, and a Vitriolic Sphere against which she failed her save (the acid stayed on her after the first round).

Let's see, Lightning Bolt does at least 5 damage (10d6 halved), Crossbow plus SA does 2 damage twice, and VitriSphere does 6? I think you have a good point going here but I'm not quite following your math so far.

Anyway, that wasn't the point since the Xykon battle trumps it anyway. Okay, I'll add Con 8+ to V's list. That's a nice bit of math there :)

Well, as I said earlier in the thread, in order to have all the feats with which she is listed, Miko needs to be at least level 15.

That is interesting, because it would also peg Roy's level at 15 (and 14 now) since he was the highest-level good character on the battlefield.

Let's see, she has nine listed feats. Two are from her Monk bonus (ImpUnarmed and StunFist). A human needs to be level 15 to have seven more. So yeah, that checks out. The only one I'm iffy about is Cleave in comic #461. What do other people think?

[zimmerwald1915]

As a cleric, he can cast Wind Walk; it's the same level as Harm. Or he could have the Travel domain and use it to cast Fly. I'm sure there's other cleric spells with a similar effect.

Or Z could have cast Fly on Malack. The spell hasnt' got a range of Personal. I highly doubt Malack's using Wind Walk, since we were shown what that spell looks like (it turns the walker's legs into a contrail) not so very long ago.

Let's see, Lightning Bolt does at least 5 damage (10d6 halved), Crossbow plus SA does 2 damage twice, and VitriSphere does 6? I think you have a good point going here but I'm not quite following your math so far.

Vitrisphere does 18d6 damage spread over 3 rounds on a failed save. It does 3d6 damage on a successful save. Since V was shown with acid dripping off her the round after Z cast the spell (the round containing the Forcecage v. Dimension Door exchange), I assumed a failed save and thus at least 18 damage. 18 + 5 + 2 + 2 = 27 damage, thus 28 HP needed to survive the fight.

Anyway, that wasn't the point since the Xykon battle trumps it anyway. Okay, I'll add Con 8+ to V's list. That's a nice bit of math there :)

Happy to help.

[SavageWombat]

I disagree that Miko counted as "on the battlefield" for Eugene's purposes, since she started the fight locked in prison with no particular class abilities.

OTOH, I do think that Roy was 15th level by that point.

[zimmerwald1915]

I disagree that Miko counted as "on the battlefield" for Eugene's purposes, since she started the fight locked in prison with no particular class abilities.

OTOH, I do think that Roy was 15th level by that point.

On what basis? The OOTS levelled together until the party split, and no one else in the party demonstrated being over level 13 (see the OP).

[Kish]

I still don't know why Eugene is being treated as an authority on the levels and/or alignments of everyone on the field, or why he's being assumed to be speaking literally.