[3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

[Myou]

I'm confused about how natural and manufactured weapons intereact when you make a full attack.

- If you have multiple natural weapons you can attack with all of them, the primary at your full BAB and the secondaries at -5. Correct?

- If you full attack with a manufactured weapon each attack after the first takes a -5 penalty and the number you get is determined by your BAB. Correct?

So what if you're a dragon holding a sword? Do you choose either to use all your natural weapons, or use the sword? Can the sword replace 1 natural weapon at a -5 penalty? Do you use all your natural wepons, and then make a full attack with the sword too?!

And what if you're a warforged with a natural slam? Does that give you a free slam attack when full attacking?

And what if you have fewer natural weapons than you get attacks from your BAB? Can you make iterative attacks with one of them?

[nedz]

- If you have multiple natural weapons you can attack with all of them, the primary at your full BAB and the secondaries at -5. Correct?

Unless you have the Multiattack Feat, in which case the secondaries are at -2

- If you full attack with a manufactured weapon each attack after the first takes a -5 penalty and the number you get is determined by your BAB. Correct?

Yes, except for TWF, Haste etc.

So what if you're a dragon holding a sword? Do you choose either to use all your natural weapons, or use the sword? Can the sword replace 1 natural weapon at a -5 penalty? Do you use all your natural wepons, and then make a full attack with the sword too?!

Either
- Full attack with Naturals
- Full attack with Weapons, and one secondary natural

And what if you're a warforged with a natural slam? Does that give you a free slam attack when full attacking?

Full attack with Weapons, and one secondary natural

And what if you have fewer natural weapons than you get attacks from your BAB? Can you make iterative attacks with one of them?

No

[mcl01]

This has always bugged me too. Could you perhaps post sources for your answers?

[Greenish]

Either
- Full attack with Naturals
- Full attack with Weapons, and one secondary natural

You actually get full attack with the Weapon, and then can use all your "free" naturals (ie. not claws when you've attacked with two-hander) as secondaries.

[Myou]

Unless you have the Multiattack Feat, in which case the secondaries are at -2

Yes, but I'm trying not to cloud the issue.

Yes, except for TWF, Haste etc.

What happens when you use TWFing then? And which weapon does Haste give the extra attack to?

Either
- Full attack with Naturals
- Full attack with Weapons, and one secondary natural

Full attack with Weapons, and one secondary natural

You're saying warforged and all other creatures with natural weapons actually get a free extra attack on a full attack?

No

As Mcl01 says, sources? xD

You actually get full attack with the Weapon, and then can use all your "free" naturals (ie. not claws when you've attacked with two-hander) as secondaries.

Please tell me you're joking.

[true_shinken]

You actually get full attack with the Weapon, and then can use all your "free" naturals (ie. not claws when you've attacked with two-hander) as secondaries.

Greenish is correct. Sometimes this gets confusing, though - the example vampires in the monster manual for example refrain from using their slam attacks as secondary, even though that would be optimal.

[Greenish]

What happens when you use TWFing then? And which weapon does Haste give the extra attack to?

When TWFing, you get your normal TWF sequence and then your natural attacks. Haste gives an extra attack with one weapon of your choosing.

You're saying warforged and all other creatures with natural weapons actually get a free extra attack on a full attack?

Yes, though Slam could be argued to require a free hand (or even two), since Slam attacks are made with arms.

As Mcl01 says, sources? xD

Natural Weapons and Haste in SRD. I'll dig up the rest in a moment.

[Edit]: Vampire entry has this:

Full Attack
A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack.

The details in general are spelled out somewhere, I'm positive.

[Myou]

when TWFing, you get your normal TWF sequence and then your natural attacks. Haste gives an extra attack with one weapon of your choosing.
Yes, though Slam could be argued to require a free hand (or even two), since Slam attacks are made with arms.
Natural Weapons and Haste in SRD. I'll dig up the rest in a moment.

The text doesn't say you can use your natural weapons as extra attacks at the end of a full attack.

[nedz]

MM p299
Natural and Manufactured Weapons
Full iteration of Manufactured weapons and then natural weapons as secondary.

Seems I may have mis-interpreted this as just the one secondary.

TWF, Haste effect your Primary attacks

You cannot get iteratives with natural weapons - MM several places

[Myou]

MM p299
Natural and Manufactured Weapons
Full iteration of Manufactured weapons and then natural weapons as secondary.

Seems I may have mis-interpreted this as just the one secondary.

TWF, Haste effect your Primary attacks

You cannot get iteratives with natural weapons - MM several places

Gah, it really is in the rules. Doesn't this give races with natural weapons a pretty big advantage?

Also, what happens if you're a warforged using a THW? Does that prevent you using your slam, or can your slam be used by another bodypart? Or can you take a hand of yor weapon for free?

[nedz]

Gah, it really is in the rules. Doesn't this give races with natural weapons a pretty big advantage?

Hence the LA

Also, what happens if you're a warforged using a THW? Does that prevent you using your slam, or can your slam be used by another bodypart? Or can you take a hand of yor weapon for free?

MM p312 Natural Weapons - Slap or Slam ... batters with an appendage dealing Bludgoning.

[Greenish]

Gah, it really is in the rules. Doesn't this give races with natural weapons a pretty big advantage?

It's nice to have, but not a game-breaker. Makes kobolds an interesting choice for rogues, for example.

Also, what happens if you're a warforged using a THW? Does that prevent you using your slam, or can your slam be used by another bodypart? Or can you take a hand of yor weapon for free?

Slam attacks are made with "an appendage" as nedz points out. The natural weapons section also says that "Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm". Make of that what you will.

[Volthawk]

Maybe you can use a leg for Slam? So you slash them then kick them?

[DragoonWraith]

One thing that's ridiculously confusing is that a lot of Natural Attacks use your hands, and it can become exceedingly unclear whether or not you're actually entitled to all of the attacks.

For example, a Wildclaw Shifter Totemist shapes Claws of the Wyrm (he's got Dragontouched as a feat, I guess), binds Bloodclaws to his Totem, and shifts. He now has 6 Claw attacks - one pair from shifting, one pair from Claws of the Wyrm, one pair from Bloodclaws. He also has only two arms, and so he only gets to use one pair of Claw attacks.

If he equips a weapon in one hand, he can't use one of those Claw attacks, bringing him down to just one.

If he equips a weapon in both hands, he can't use any of his Claw attacks, as his hands are full of weapons.

Meanwhile, if he bound Girallon Arms to his Totem instead of Bloodclaws, he'd have four arms, which means he should be able to use four Claw attacks. Which four? I'm not entirely sure; he's entitled to 8, but he might have to use the Girallon Arms secondary Claws for two of them...

Yes, though Slam could be argued to require a free hand (or even two), since Slam attacks are made with arms.

Not always, in fact not usually IIRC. Slams are usually more body slams than whacking things with your arms. You only get to whack things with your arms if you are very large with very large arms, and each arm could be "body slam" as effectively as a smaller creature's entire body, I believe.

[nedz]

Slam attacks are a bit strange sometimes.
e.g. The Gelatanous Cube gets one, but it has no appendages.
(Well unless it attacks with its corners or something )

Edit:
If you want an example of mixing naturals and manufactured look at:
Trog p246 MM
in the Full Attack section of the Stat block

[Volthawk]

Slam attacks are a bit strange sometimes.
e.g. The Gelatanous Cube gets one, but it has no appendages.
(Well unless it attacks with its corners or something )

Fear the corners of the cube!

[KillianHawkeye]

Just for added clarification, the dragon wielding a sword in the example above would get attacks as follows (assuming no extra feats):

- Full # of iterative attacks with the sword based on his BAB (don't forget the penalty for using a weapon of an inappropriate size, if applicable)

- Claw/Bite/Wing/Wing/Tail all at BAB -5 (assuming the dragon has all of those attack forms)

[Myou]

It's nice to have, but not a game-breaker. Makes kobolds an interesting choice for rogues, for example.
Slam attacks are made with "an appendage" as nedz points out. The natural weapons section also says that "Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm". Make of that what you will.

Wow, I'm just going to ignore the issue of slams with more than one limb at a time. xP

Maybe you can use a leg for Slam? So you slash them then kick them?

Crotch thrust of death.

Just for added clarification, the dragon wielding a sword in the example above would get attacks as follows (assuming no extra feats):

- Full # of iterative attacks with the sword based on his BAB (don't forget the penalty for using a weapon of an inappropriate size, if applicable)

- Claw/Bite/Wing/Wing/Tail all at BAB -5 (assuming the dragon has all of those attack forms)

Indeed, I have to use this.

[Greenish]

Wow, I'm just going to ignore the issue of slams with more than one limb at a time. xP

DragoonWraith's interpretation is as good as mine, if not better.

Indeed, I have to use this.

You won't be the first one to have fun with natural attacks.

[DragoonWraith]

Your average medium humanoid, from what I can tell, provided two arms, two legs, two wings, one head, and one tail, could make two Claw attacks, two Wing attacks, one Horn attack, one Bite attack, one Slam attack, and one Tail attack.

[Greenish]

Your average medium humanoid, from what I can tell, provided two arms, two legs, two wings, one head, and one tail, could make two Claw attacks, two Wing attacks, one Horn attack, one Bite attack, one Slam attack, and one Tail attack.

The average humanoids around your part of the world are… interesting.

[DragoonWraith]

I meant more in terms of the sort of "slots" they have available. Mainly, lots of things add Claws, not many things add Arms. Plenty of things let you bite; can't think of anything that gives you another head with which to do it, if you already have one. That kind of thing.

[Greenish]

I meant more in terms of the sort of "slots" they have available. Mainly, lots of things add Claws, not many things add Arms. Plenty of things let you bite; can't think of anything that gives you another head with which to do it, if you already have one. That kind of thing.

Oh, I see. How many tentacle slots does an average humanoid have?

[SurlySeraph]

While we're on the subject, couldn't (for example) a Monk with claws make his normal unarmed attacks and then use his claw attacks as secondary weapons? What with how an unarmed attack can be made with any part of the body and all?

[nedz]

... can't think of anything that gives you another head with which to do it, if you already have one. That kind of thing.

Polymorph -> Hydra

[Greenish]

While we're on the subject, couldn't (for example) a Monk with claws make his normal unarmed attacks and then use his claw attacks as secondary weapons?

Yeah, sure.

[Flickerdart]

I meant more in terms of the sort of "slots" they have available. Mainly, lots of things add Claws, not many things add Arms. Plenty of things let you bite; can't think of anything that gives you another head with which to do it, if you already have one. That kind of thing.

Multi-headed template (Savage Species) gives you many heads.

[Glimbur]

can't think of anything that gives you another head with which to do it, if you already have one. That kind of thing.

Bind the Threefold Mask of the Chimera to your totem chakra for two bites and a headbutt.

[Keld Denar]

Oh, I see. How many tentacle slots does an average humanoid have?

If you have a ton of feat slots to burn....

Aberrant Blood > Inhuman Reach > Deepspawn gives 2.
Totemist binding Displacer Mantle gives 2 more, although they can't be combined.
Illithid Heritage + Illithid Grapple x4 gives 4 more tenticles.
Manifest Form of Doom (PsyWar6) gives another 4 tenticles.
Attract Symbiot (Tenticle Whip) gives another.

So...if you were really ambitious, you could have what, 13 tenticles? If you started polymorphed into a giant octopus, you'd be at 21.

Run, little japanese school girl, RUN!

[Volthawk]

Changeling Warshaper for more natural weapon fun.