[BitP:R] BleachitP: Reborn: OOC Thread 11

[Viera Champion]

Or this:

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[Moon Wolf]

Thank you guys! I haven't had practice in a while so my next drawing won't be nearly as good. Plus, being able to draw isn't everything, unless you're a manga artist....which I'm not.

[Viera Champion]

Hey a moon wolf. Can you pot in soul society? I dint wanna have to doubl post just to have Kyasarin manifest her Zanpaktou.

[Moon Wolf]

All right. After that, I'll have to deadtime....tripper makes us all get up at six each morning.

[Viera Champion]

Wow that last post had horrible spelling. I was typing too fast on my iPod and wasn't really paying attention.

[KnightDisciple]

Um...Kurama, your latest Soul Society post is leaving me a touch confused.

If I read this post correctly, Kyasarin is at least halfway to physically manifesting her Zanpakutou Spirit in the physical (well, relatively speaking) world.

The reason this leaves me confused is that it seems to be, well, "ahead of schedule".

By this I mean that, according to my recollections and research, it takes years for the Shinigami to physically manifest their spirits. The wiki says 10 years or more; I'd say a range of "+ or - 2 years" seems like a good ballpark number.

However, Kyasarin has at least partly achieved this, after...a few hours? Well, less than that of actual meditation.

Might I suggest this attempt isn't actually successful? And that she realizes it was a "preview", and she'll have years before she can manifest it.

Now, I realize that's kind of a downer. Bankai is a fun idea. But it's also a major stepping stone of power, and one of our goals in this game is a notably lower power curve. I would suggest that Kyasarin only achieve Bankai in a time frame under that "roughly 10 years" figure if things are truly dire, and you've consulted with the community (or perhaps, at least, the Central 5).

Keep in mind this will actually let you put Kyasarin into more fights, as those fights that require even a Vice-Captain's Bankai should be very few and far between.

[Viera Champion]

Nod nod. I didn't really realize that. Failure it is, but I would like to point out that just because Kyasarin is actually doing something IC now, doesn't mean she couldn't have been training for a fair amount of time before she talked to Yuuki about it. So she could very well be able to manifest her spirit right now.

[KnightDisciple]

Nod nod. I didn't really realize that. Failure it is, but I would like to point out that just because Kyasarin is actually doing something IC now, doesn't mean she couldn't have been training for a fair amount of time before she talked to Yuuki about it. So she could very well be able to manifest her spirit right now.

That's...possible. But the whole tone of the dialogue, especially when Yuuki asked Kazuo for a shortcut (and got hilariously rebuked ) was that Kyasarin was just beginning her training for bankai. You even approached the subject OOC as "I want Kyasarin to start training for bankai"; the manifestation of the spirit seems to be the crucial step. After that, you have to defeat your sword, yes, but by that point, many/most shinigami would have the skill and experience and so on to do so, at least in a much shorter time frame (days or weeks instead of years). I point to Renji noting that he achieved a breakthrough, and showing off a manifested Zabimaru to Ichigo and Yoruichi. He was depicted as having his Bankai the next day. Similarly, Urahara's shortcut focuses on the manifestation, not the defeating.

Thus, logic states that it's the manifestation that should take the most work, and correspondingly, should not be achieved so soon by the character.

If nothing else, I point to the fact that Kazuo, a Captain, is still struggling with this process. I would, honestly, hope that a Vice-Captain would have further to go.

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Connected to that, I notice that Myojin and Katisugo still have Bankai. Something that, more than once, has been brought up as being an issue. I'm wondering if this is being/has been addressed, beyond vague mention of "backstory"? Perhaps the Central 5 can shed some light here?

[Viera Champion]

Nod nod. I know, I was just throwing ideas around.

Also, I edited the soul society post like you asked. And, let's not forget that even after she achieves Bankai, she will have many many more years till she masters it and actually comes up with special techniques for it that are more then just the regular bankai.

[KnightDisciple]

Nod nod. I know, I was just throwing ideas around.

Also, I edited the soul society post like you asked. And, let's not forget that even after she achieves Bankai, she will have many many more years till she masters it and actually comes up with special techniques for it that are more then just the regular bankai.

But keep in mind, even "just the regular bankai" is really powerful. It's an increase of power on the order of "5 times the power", at least.

For example, let's look at Byakuya and Renji.

Byakuya's basic bankai is "I have more TK-controlled mini-blades than I can count. Have fun dying". Yes, he has some specific techniques with it. But the basic form is still notably more powerful than his shikai.

Renji's bankai is similar. We go from a weapon that starts as a blade about 4 feet long, that can extend, oh, I'd guess 30ish feet or so, maybe towards 5. His bankai is probably something like 100 feet of bony, spiked madness. It's much harder to break, as it's held together by his will. It's got a giant chompy snake head on the end. It's easily a very powerful "regular bankai".

"Special Techniques" is a much more relative concept when dealing with Bankai. Bankai, just by existing, is an immensely powerful "Special Technique".

So again, I suggest that, frankly, you hold off on achieving Bankai at all. Get a sense for how many years IC will go by. Then, if the story's coming to a point where it won't break the curve, come back to the OOC and discuss actually achieving such a monumental step.

[tgva8889]

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Connected to that, I notice that Myojin and Katisugo still have Bankai. Something that, more than once, has been brought up as being an issue. I'm wondering if this is being/has been addressed, beyond vague mention of "backstory"? Perhaps the Central 5 can shed some light here?

Neither player has been particularly active this summer. I suppose that neither has noticed any discussion of events, or at least has not been around to change it/argue their defense.

[Terry576]

Neither player has been particularly active this summer. I suppose that neither has noticed any discussion of events, or at least has not been around to change it/argue their defense.

But Righty's been in the Gaming subforum quite a bit recently. So he's mostly back.

[Viera Champion]

Sigh... Nevermind... I already know how you'll reply to the next thing I have to say. So I'm not gonna say it.

[Kasanip]

This. After attempting, the best I can do is draw semi-legit versions of some weapons. And not even all of them.

I really feel like I should spend tons of effort on learning how to draw or paint or do something relatively artistic. It looks like it ought to be incredibly satisfying to finish. But I've never been able to sit myself down and learn it.

I started violin in March. Often having wished to start when I was a child, but having waited. But I'm very happy now to play. But I am very unskillful Maybe to sketch is a similar feeling. But to show other people is very embarrassing too.

Or this:

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Ah, it looks like inspiration of Patty from Seisen no Keifu. Do you like Fire Emblem Moon Wolf?

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[Draken]

For the record, Kazuo has no problem manifesting the spirit of Dougu no Tsukirite, all five of its incarnations. He is having problems with their test.

Which is no combat, but a riddle.

[Frozen_Feet]

All in all, I think it's safe to say both steps of the Bankai test are equally important. They measure very different things, after all.

Manifesting a spirit measures familiarity with said spirit. Fighting the spirit measures prowess of the wielder. As evidenced by both Ichigo and Kenpachi, being hugely strong is irrelevant if one does not know one's spirit.

Renji, who's the only one we've (sorta) seen achieving Bankai the ordinary way, was both powerful and well acquainted with Zabimaru. Ichigo had power for Bankai, but lacked any idea of what or who Zangetsu was, and thus needed help. Kazuo fills the remaining point on the spectrum as someone who knows his spirit, but can't best it in its chosen field as of now.

Also, something I noticed when I rewatched SS arc:

Yoruichi said training for Bankai normally requires 10 years. However, later Byakua specified it takes 10 years to master how to use all the power Bankai grants. Combined with more current knowledge of Jinzen, this has lead me to believe that simply releasing a sword a second time is not that hard to achieve; actually doing something useful with all the power it grants is the hard part.

After all, most Bankais alter both the shape of a zanpakuto and powers it grants, to the point where a whole new combat style must be invented from whole cloth to support it. As evidenced by Ichigo, someone who's recently achieved Bankai isn't even aware of all the things it can do (or will do, if misused, as witnessed by him breaking his bones).

[Sucrose]

Neither player has been particularly active this summer. I suppose that neither has noticed any discussion of events, or at least has not been around to change it/argue their defense.

Indeed; as I recall, a couple of OOCs ago, we agreed to assume that they lacked said release for now, and allow them to try to argue against this when they feel like it.

[KnightDisciple]

Yoruichi said training for Bankai normally requires 10 years. However, later Byakua specified it takes 10 years to master how to use all the power Bankai grants. Combined with more current knowledge of Jinzen, this has lead me to believe that simply releasing a sword a second time is not that hard to achieve; actually doing something useful with all the power it grants is the hard part.

After all, most Bankais alter both the shape of a zanpakuto and powers it grants, to the point where a whole new combat style must be invented from whole cloth to support it. As evidenced by Ichigo, someone who's recently achieved Bankai isn't even aware of all the things it can do (or will do, if misused, as witnessed by him breaking his bones).

I would actually say that those two figures are complimentary, rather than opposing each other in a binary state.

Consider Renji, who has the basic form of his bankai, and essentially 1 special attack. Looking at most other bankais, I bet in a few years Renji will have more tricks.

Or Hitsugaya, for someone further along. Not sure how long he's had his bankai, but he's been notably refining it throughout the series.

So, one could easily state that it takes 20 years on average to both train to gain bankai, and then train to fully, truly master it.

That said, I'd think the 2nd figure is more mutable than the first.

Edit:

Indeed; as I recall, a couple of OOCs ago, we agreed to assume that they lacked said release for now, and allow them to try to argue against this when they feel like it.

I forgot this, my apologies.

[Frozen_Feet]

I would actually say that those two figures are complimentary, rather than opposing each other in a binary state.

Possible. The reason why I believe otherwhise is due to when and why those things were said.

During training, Yoruichi's speech was about achieving Bankai, and Ichigo basically became overconfident due to reaching it. Byakua's speech was mainly about how and why it didn't count. It was as if Byakua was pointing out a misconception in Ichigo's thinking.

It's hard to say for sure, as Byakua and Yoruichi were speaking completely independent of each other, and weren't really commenting on each others' words. I'm inclined to believe they were both describing the same thing from different points of view.

[KnightDisciple]

Possible. The reason why I believe otherwhise is due to when and why those things were said.

During training, Yoruichi's speech was about achieving Bankai, and Ichigo basically became overconfident due to reaching it. Byakua's speech was mainly about how and why it didn't count. It was as if Byakua was pointing out a misconception in Ichigo's thinking.

It's hard to say for sure, as Byakua and Yoruichi were speaking completely independent of each other, and weren't really commenting on each others' words. I'm inclined to believe they were both describing the same thing from different points of view.

My strongest point of evidence is the device Urahara made. Its entire focus was the manifestation; 3 days, instead of however many years.

The fact that they talk about different things (achieving it, and mastering it) makes me think it's not a "different point of view" issue. I mean, it should be hard just to get bankai; theoretically, only about 13 people in Soul Society have it. Then, to master it takes even more time.

It's just like Shikai; first you achieve it, then you master it.

In my mind, it's logical that both steps, achievement and mastery, take time independent of each other.

I could maybe see meeting in the middle, and saying "5 years to achieve it, another 5 to master it". But certainly each is going to carry roughly equal time and effort, assuming you're not a cheating cheater who cheats with SCIENCE!.

[KnightDisciple]

Sigh... Nevermind... I already know how you'll reply to the next thing I have to say. So I'm not gonna say it.

I'm sorry if I frustrated you. I was simply trying to keep the process logical, orderly, and unrushed. A good portion of that is so that it actually has dramatic weight; bankai is an enormous step, and not something to be achieved lightly on-screen.
Connected to that, in Reborn, it's supposed to stay pretty rare. We don't have a single Vice-Captain with Bankai, and that's on purpose. When they start achieving it, the next tier down maybe feels the need. Then the next. It becomes a nigh-unstoppable arms race. It's the same reason we're trying to curb the presence of Vizard (though that seems less successful).

So take some time to think your process out, and I wager your story will be better for it.

[Frozen_Feet]

As far as I know, there are maybe three actual Shinigami Vizards in the works right now, with two of them still upcoming. Compared to the previous game and canon, I'd say we've been succesful so far.

We have much more future Bankais and Segunda Etapas planned than future hollowfications.

[Moon Wolf]

I started violin in March. Often having wished to start when I was a child, but having waited. But I'm very happy now to play. But I am very unskillful Maybe to sketch is a similar feeling. But to show other people is very embarrassing too.





Ah, it looks like inspiration of Patty from Seisen no Keifu. Do you like Fire Emblem Moon Wolf?

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Fire Emblem!!!! I love it!!! You like it too.....finally, I thought nobody else liked it and I was just...special or something

[Kuroimaken]

I haven't played that much of it, but I did like what I played. ...I just kinda suck at it. Not used to think of equipment as discardable/expendable...

[Shades of Gray]

Fire Emblem!!!! I love it!!! You like it too.....finally, I thought nobody else liked it and I was just...special or something

Moon Wolf, there have been many threads on the subject of Fire Emblem, as well as PbP games. I have been in many of them.

You aren't "special," just not very observant.

[tgva8889]

One of the reasons that Urahara's training method is so dangerous is the fact that it forces manifestation. One, the Zanpakuto probably isn't very happy about that, and Two, it's dangerous to force manifestation when the Shinigami isn't properly prepared for the Zanpakuto's trial. In fact, based on some of the things Zangetsu says during his fight with Ichigo, it's highly probable that one who is unprepared to take the trial could die while attempting it.

That said, anything to do with anything to do with Bankai should be a heavily dramatic moment that occurs on-screen. That's my opinion.

[Frozen_Feet]

To all Captain players...

*takes a moment to point angrily at people*

... those messengers sent from 13th can arrive at any moment. Lets get the plot training moving, shall we?

[tgva8889]

...I guess I can respond. It doesn't really mean much of anything, though, as 10th members are already performing patrols in Sereitei.

[Frozen_Feet]

To restate the purpose of the event, it's to give a good in-game reason for all the unseated characters to meet up and build connections. If there aren't any in the 10th, well, that's a pity.

[Kuroimaken]

Well, Kazuma would be patrolling. But Michiko isn't around, is she?