What plot twist most disappointed you?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Alright, then why do you feel I was quoting your argument when i said that terodil was arguing about an Air Bud exception in the law? Because... they are. That is literally what's in the original story we're discussing. That is what I believe is their very first post in the thread, the one I quoted, is talking about.

Nope, still a strawman.

But now you're fully aware of it, and choose to keep digging. I believe I have been patient enough with you, and it is now clear it was a mistake.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

This is a vast representation of my point because it is not my point at all. I.e. a strawman.

Grey Wolf

Indeed, the rules manifestly do forbid dominating anyone, which is why the vampires aren't doing so inside the room where the rules are enforced by instant petrification. Gontor said as much.

[AstralFire]

Nope, still a strawman.

But now you're fully aware of it, and choose to keep digging. I beleive I have been patient enough with you, and it is now clear it was a mistake.

Grey Wolf

You have not been remotely patient in this entire encounter. You have been condescending from the first, failed to explain yourself, and made multiple assertions in the process. I've even made a point of going back, stripping the names out of posts, and showing these posts to other people off this forum but read OotS to figure out if I am, somehow, being a jerk here.

Don't act like you've been magnanimous to me. I only even spoke up about an issue I don't particularly care about on my own because you were being summarily dismissive while actively misrepresenting someone else's point.

Indeed, the rules manifestly do forbid dominating anyone, which is why the vampires aren't doing so inside the room where the rules are enforced by instant petrification. Gontor said as much.

Kish, do you really think that materially changes the point of discussion here? It's not an exclusion of domination at all, it's an exclusion of specifically putting someone under your thrall during the events.
An understandable mistake within the narrative, I'm not sure I would have thought about it. But still basically an air bud exception.

[Vinyadan]

The Air Bud thing always makes me think of my soccer referee training, where we were asked as a serious question "What if an emu escaped from the zoo and ran across the goal, blocking a shot from going in?" It was a thought exercise in "What do you do if the utterly ridiculous happens" that has stuck with me.

By the way, the answer was a drop ball where the shot was blocked. After you red card the emu and send it to the stands for unsportsmanlike behaviour.

In tennis, "If a ball in play hits a bird, this is considered a hindrance and the point is replayed."

[r2d2go]

Nope, still a strawman.

But now you're fully aware of it, and choose to keep digging. I believe I have been patient enough with you, and it is now clear it was a mistake.

Grey Wolf

You have not been remotely patient in this entire encounter. You have been condescending from the first, failed to explain yourself, and made multiple assertions in the process. I've even made a point of going back, stripping the names out of posts, and showing these posts to other people off this forum but read OotS to figure out if I am, somehow, being a jerk here.

Don't act like you've been magnanimous to me. I only even spoke up about an issue I don't particularly care about on my own because you were being summarily dismissive while actively misrepresenting someone else's point.



Kish, do you really think that materially changes the point of discussion here? It's not an exclusion of domination at all, it's an exclusion of specifically putting someone under your thrall during the events.
An understandable mistake within the narrative, I'm not sure I would have thought about it. But still basically an air bud exception.

Yeah, I don't mean to be rude but I agreed with Grey Wolf at the beginning, but then other people clarified their points and I don't anymore. It really seems like you're arguing against a point people aren't trying to make at this point.

As far as I understand it, at worst the claim is "this loophole seems easy enough for a god to close, that was kinda disappointing". Like, nobody's saying that the plot should have been changed at all, just that the loophole should have been slightly more complex, since this one seems easy enough to close (with real world precedence that such a closure would work!)

[AstralFire]

Yeah, I don't mean to be rude but I agreed with Grey Wolf at the beginning, but then other people clarified their points and I don't anymore. It really seems like you're arguing against a point people aren't trying to make at this point.

As far as I understand it, at worst the claim is "this loophole seems easy enough for a god to close, that was kinda disappointing". Like, nobody's saying that the plot should have been changed at all, just that the loophole should have been slightly more complex, since this one seems easy enough to close (with real world precedence that such a closure would work!)

I apologize, I am sometimes slightly stupid -- you quote me and you say that I'm arguing against a point people aren't trying to make, but then the second paragraph sounds like you're agreeing with me, to me? (You also say you agreed with Grey Wolf at the beginning but don't anymore).

I do agree with Jasdoif's points as of their latest and I don't really have anything to argue against anyone on the general subject.

[r2d2go]

I apologize, I am sometimes slightly stupid -- you quote me and you say that I'm arguing against a point people aren't trying to make, but then the second paragraph sounds like you're agreeing with me, to me? (You also say you agreed with Grey Wolf at the beginning but don't anymore).

I do agree with Jasdoif's points as of their latest and I don't really have anything to argue against anyone on the general subject.

Yeah I'm agreeing with you, sorry. The "you" is supposed to be a pronoun for "grey wolf", in the embedded quote.

[RatElemental]

And the only fridge question I can think of is "why didn't Dvalin design a system of voting capable of stopping vampires with full access to the voting rules?", which seems to have a trivially simple answer.

That's a bit uncharitable, given that Myta has said multiple times that measures to detect magical compulsion would also stop nonvampires using magical compulsion. Really it's pretty common sense in any voting system to have coerced votes not count if you can prove coercion.

Edit: Wow a lot of stuff happened while I was asleep.

[Kish]

Kish, do you really think that materially changes the point of discussion here?

Yes. "Air Bud exception" is a situation where "what they're doing isn't against the rules because of stupid loophole."

What they're doing is, "What they're doing is totally against the rules, but they're not getting caught breaking the rules." Domination is against the rules. Murder is against the rules. This is, again, something Gontor called out.

If you want to argue that Dvalin "should" be watching the Council meeting closely, go ahead; I won't agree with you but at least you won't be fighting with Grey Wolf about terminology.

[AstralFire]

Yes. "Air Bud exception" is a situation where "what they're doing isn't against the rules because of stupid loophole."

What they're doing is, "What they're doing is totally against the rules, but they're not getting caught breaking the rules." Domination is against the rules. Murder is against the rules. This is, again, something Gontor called out.

If you want to argue that Dvalin "should" be watching the Council meeting closely, go ahead; I won't agree with you but at least you won't be fighting with Grey Wolf about terminology.

Hm, I see your point. It is similar to Jasdoif's if I follow you; it is against the rules right now but their enforcement mechanism is inadequate for catching it.

I'm not sure that's actually the case, the way Gontor talks -- simply ordering the command of their thralls should be a violation if the rules were built to cover this situation, since the enforcement mechanism is just "breaks Dwarven law, bam" -- but it's a reasonable reading of the situation.

[Darth Paul]

If it matters, I primarily have worked in criminal and constitutional law, so I am necessarily biased towards views of those fields. And also one is inclined to think something is simpler if one has done it. So that is fair.

Since we're bringing up experience, and Air Bud exceptions:
My experience is working as a Corrections Officer, and our misconduct system is practically built around what we're terming Air Bud Exceptions, in that, if there's not a specific rule against something, we can't write up a misconduct ticket for it, no matter how objectionable the behavior is.

Example: the prisoners like to use things like blankets or sheets to cover the stainless-steel tabletops when they play cards in the common room. But there's a Unit Rule against bringing linens and blankets to those rooms, since we can imagine many nefarious things that could be done in those areas with a big heavy cloth (smuggling comes to mind, several other things). So, instead, they use spare shirts to cover the table instead. There is no rule against using shirts to cover the table. When one of the higher-ups making rounds asked me why I was letting them use their shirts to cover the tables, I said exactly that; I can't write it up, because there's no rule against it.

Now, if a rule were written that said "Nothing may be used as a table covering," then no problem; but they don't have that rule. AND in the latest revision, they removed Unit Rule #1, which used to read, "Follow staff instructions at all times;" so now I can't even say, "Take that off the table" without escalating it to another class of misconduct, "Disobeying Orders".

So I can see exactly how the Dwarven rule system came about. Someone was trying to cover all possible specific situations, instead of writing a general rule, and didn't think of this particular specific situation; or just didn't imagine it could ever happen.

[AstralFire]

Since we're bringing up experience, and Air Bud exceptions:
My experience is working as a Corrections Officer, and our misconduct system is practically built around what we're terming Air Bud Exceptions, in that, if there's not a specific rule against something, we can't write up a misconduct ticket for it, no matter how objectionable the behavior is.

Example: the prisoners like to use things like blankets or sheets to cover the stainless-steel tabletops when they play cards in the common room. But there's a Unit Rule against bringing linens and blankets to those rooms, since we can imagine many nefarious things that could be done in those areas with a big heavy cloth (smuggling comes to mind, several other things). So, instead, they use spare shirts to cover the table instead. There is no rule against using shirts to cover the table. When one of the higher-ups making rounds asked me why I was letting them use their shirts to cover the tables, I said exactly that; I can't write it up, because there's no rule against it.

Now, if a rule were written that said "Nothing may be used as a table covering," then no problem; but they don't have that rule. AND in the latest revision, they removed Unit Rule #1, which used to read, "Follow staff instructions at all times;" so now I can't even say, "Take that off the table" without escalating it to another class of misconduct, "Disobeying Orders".

So I can see exactly how the Dwarven rule system came about. Someone was trying to cover all possible specific situations, instead of writing a general rule, and didn't think of this particular specific situation; or just didn't imagine it could ever happen.

I would absolutely agree with that, that's basically how a lot of law is. And I'll go further in that I think in a specific situation like a misconduct situation, it has to be, because the potential breaches are so often that they can't be reasonably reviewed by a third party -- if you don't limit it to explicit situations, you end up with a lot of potential for abuse of power. In an ideal situation (and I stress that I'm aware ideals are meant to be attempted, not pass/fail, and I don't find my own suspension of disbelief harmed here) something as important and rare as this vote would be subject to third-party review and have room for a "reasonable" or "list not limited to explicit examples" clause.

Speaking on a broader note outside of your job, there's a big divorce between what a lot of legal experts would like to see as statutory law and what actually becomes statutory law for a lot of reasons. To anyone who's familiar with it, my initial cite of the Model Penal Code was probably telling, because the MPC is very rarely directly implemented due to those concerns (although it remains incredibly influential).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's a bit uncharitable, given that Myta has said multiple times that measures to detect magical compulsion would also stop nonvampires using magical compulsion. Really it's pretty common sense in any voting system to have coerced votes not count if you can prove coercion.

The problem is that this deliberately ignores the fact that the system has a process to prevent magical compulsion, based on the dispelling effect, which the vampires found a way to work around. So there is already a "pretty common sense" protection against it, and thus complaining that there isn't even more defences against it just nirvana fallacy at this point. Not that I read Myta having suggested as much.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

The problem is that this deliberately ignores the fact that the system has a process to prevent magical compulsion, based on the dispelling effect, which the vampires found a way to work around. So there is already a "pretty common sense" protection against it, and thus complaining that there isn't even more defences against it just nirvana fallacy at this point.

Also, since I just noticed this...zone of truth is itself a mind-affecting compulsion; there may have been a tradeoff involved.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, since I just noticed this...zone of truth is itself a mind-affecting compulsion; there may have been a tradeoff involved.

I would not expect the godsmoot to be subject to dwarven law, but on the other hand, magically determining truth was explicitly against the law in Cliffport, surprising Roy in the process, so in the North, it is not generally against the law elsewhere to do that kind of thing. But it is also clear that different places can and do have different laws regarding the use of magic.

Grey Wolf

[martianmister]

Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo is four words, just not four unique words. Which nobody ever promised.

"I must kill Belkar"

"I must kiss Belkar"

"I must have sex (with Belkar?)"

[RatElemental]

I would not expect the godsmoot to be subject to dwarven law, but on the other hand, magically determining truth was explicitly against the law in Cliffport, surprising Roy in the process, so in the North, it is not generally against the law elsewhere to do that kind of thing. But it is also clear that different places can and do have different laws regarding the use of magic.

Grey Wolf

Personally, I think this bit of fridge logic goes a bit above dwarven law. Dvalin swore to follow the will of the clans, but apparently has no measures in place to determine whether the will of the clans has been subverted other than to trust that the measures built by the clans that seem to have been built with the ability to subvert the vote as a feature rather than a bug have prevented it. All he would have to do is observe the proceedings and have a moderately decent amount of ranks in sense motive to determine that some of the voters have been dominated.

Dvalin didn't say he had sworn to follow the vote of the clans, he said he had sworn to follow the will of the clans.

[Peelee]

Dvalin didn't say he had sworn to follow the vote of the clans, he said he had sworn to follow the will of the clans.

Welcome to politics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Personally, I think this bit of fridge logic goes a bit above dwarven law. Dvalin swore to follow the will of the clans, but apparently has no measures in place to determine whether the will of the clans has been subverted other than to trust that the measures built by the clans that seem to have been built with the ability to subvert the vote as a feature rather than a bug have prevented it. All he would have to do is observe the proceedings and have a moderately decent amount of ranks in sense motive to determine that some of the voters have been dominated.

Two issues:

First and most important, observing the vote would subvert the vote. ETA: Both as a mortal when he designed the system and as a god, it should be obvious to anyone participating in this that it is really hard to vote against what is perceived to be the King/God's preferred outcome if said King/God is watching you vote. People might vote against their will to look good before his eyes. This is the same reason why they have private voting booths in democratic elections.

Second, if there are systems in place to protect the integrity of the vote, and there are, then by saying more could have been done we are back to the Nirvana fallacy. ETA: They have an outer chamber that protects it from mobs by having a narrow bridge with no railings across a chasm. They have a barrier that stops non-dwarves and dispels magic. They have a middle chamber full of guards to repel anyone that gets that far. And they have an inner chamber isolated from sound and sight were voting can take place in privacy. Which also turns any law-breakers into stone. It is more than a little ridiculous to say that they should just keep doing more, more, more, and call it disappointing that the council, what, didn't have a 7-layer defence rather than the five they do have?

ETA:

Dvalin didn't say he had sworn to follow the vote of the clans, he said he had sworn to follow the will of the clans.

Throughout history, voting has been the standard way to express the will of the group doing to voting. You can't ask people - they are liable to lie. You can't use statistics or predictions or divination (which it seems "is easily fooled by illusions" as per canon). We already know that noblemen inclined to lie, such as Kubota, have access to class features that prevent magical lie detection. There is no better option, and there are plenty of worse ones. Especially when you remember that this was designed by Dvalin the mortal dwarf to deal with clan issues, not by Dvalin the god to deal with end-of-the-world decisions.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

He's the OODA loop guy, right?

Yes. Any number of military theorists and doctrinal writers have taken Boyd's work and applied it to a variety of other military function. (Digression over, not quite half of a life time ago I was involved in development of Joint Doctrine and the problems the information age poses for it ... )

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Somehow I missed this post earlier:

Vampires willfully depriving themselves of unlife, and their food sources, strikes me as profoundly against their own self interest.

Remember the plan involves them gate-ing out of dodge to spend the interorbis period in Hel, and (implied?) being set lose in the new world once it exists.

Mostly on target with that (I am very familiar with that campaign)

Woo!

I could swear that we have seen this post and this point of reference before in the not too distant past. And I think it's roughly on track.

I do repeat myself a lot, so maybe you saw me say the same thing in a different thread?

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

The feeling I'm getting is that the government-by-clan-chiefes got toppled and a different one based around a parliment got established but that like, say, in the Roman Empire the old system (clan chief/senate) was never officially disolved, it just stopped having any power, other than status and occasionally having to vote on whatever Dvalin feels he needs to ask. Status being important in its own right, it was an easy way to keep the clan chiefs happy even after political power was taken away from them.

I could swear that we have seen this post and this point of reference before in the not too distant past. And I think it's roughly on track.

I do repeat myself a lot, so maybe you saw me say the same thing in a different thread?

You've said something similar before, yes.

We are talking about a minor demigod that gets a vote only when the real gods end up in a draw. He is not in charge of the dwarves, and neither are the heads of the clans. The dwarves have a parliament that is the actual authority over all dwarves, and they don't have a voice or a vote in any of these proceedings. I would imagine that if they foot the bill for this council, they were not generous. That this time the vote is crucial does not in any way imply that all the other time the vote is in any way consequential - since it is still attended by the old aristocracy that is no longer in power, it suggests that the dwarves don't think this meeting is important. Dvalin is like the old Roman Senate: might have been important 500 years back, but the current government has left it behind.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You've said something similar before, yes

Jasdoif, I am continuously amazed at your ability to find post in this forum.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

You've said something similar before, yes.

Now I'm wondering just how many indices you keep!

[Jasdoif]

Now I'm wondering just how many indices you keep!

What, because I can search for posts by Grey_Wolf_c that contain the words "parliament" and "council"? Those indices are for the database behind the forums to worry about

[Peelee]

What, because I can search for posts by Grey_Wolf_c that contain the words "parliament" and "council"? Those indices are for the database behind the forums to worry about

So what you're saying is we need to talk a lot more about Parliament Funkadelic, the council of funk?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What, because I can search for posts by Grey_Wolf_c that contain the words "parliament" and "council"? Those indices are for the database behind the forums to worry about

I'm amazed that worked, given my erratic approach at spelling parliament.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

So what you're saying is we need to talk a lot more about Parliament Funkadelic, the council of funk?

Well, a lot of people are saying they expect this arc to end with a resolution to tear the roof off the sucker.

[Jasdoif]

So what you're saying is we need to talk a lot more about Parliament Funkadelic, the council of funk?

Certainly a funky proposal...but maybe?

[D.One]

Remember the plan involves them gate-ing out of dodge to spend the interorbis period in Hel, and (implied?) being set lose in the new world once it exists.

That is, if Hel is telling them the truth and won't just abandon them, a reasonably likely outcome, given the gods go as far as to erase outsiders' memories to avoid spoiling the old worlds to the new ones...