New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst 123456
Results 151 to 158 of 158
  1. - Top - End - #151
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Alaska
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignments are feasible for Enor & Ganji?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    We have no reason to think that they can judge Roy's level accurately based on the few seconds they see him in the strip.
    I would have to agree with all of your points, but I would also like to comment on this one.

    We do have a reason to believe that they can judge Roy's level, though not accurately is a correct statement. Gannji seemed unwilling to chase down the members of the Order he and Enor had captured beforehand due to them all surviving a Blade Barrier.

    Going on that, Gannji probably would have known Roy would survive Enor's attack, but only IF he was correct and Roy was as high of level as the rest he had met earlier. This he had absolutely zero evidence for, and his attack order was based on a glorified hunch. Granted, the chance of Roy surviving based on the what Gannji did know I would place as relatively high, though not high enough that I would call the attack justified in any way.

    That action seems neutral to me, going off what I consider to be a good understanding of both OotS and D&D. Not well justified, sure, but not evil. Certainly not good either.

    As far as the topic of this thread goes...I could examine every single example of Gannji and Enor's actions up to this point, but others in this thread have done this already more or less. My own opinion is that both Gannji and Enor are some form of neutral, but as most characters in OotS go, they are not one-dimensional as far as alignment is concerned.

    Caring about eachother when they are friends is neutral. Whether them hunting down bounties for an evil empire also makes them evil depends largely on whether Gannji (the obvious brains behind the two) does not distinguish in his targets. The only ones that we know about specifically which the two have gone after for bounties are Nale and crew...Gannji simply confused Elan for him, which is perfectly understandable considering what knowledge he had to go by.

    The bottom line is that we don't have enough knowledge to definitively judge their alignments, other than to say that they are probably not "good", and probably not "evil" either. At least not strongly so.

    Also, Ron: Elan was hit by that lightning breath while Enor was not really in control of his actions.

    Also, whether they were "trying" to kill them isn't all that important to the question of whether they were "trying" to kill Roy; seeing as Elan, Haley, and V were attacked under entirely different circumstances (bounties vs those that they could only get into trouble for attacking should they get caught), and for entirely different reasons.

  2. - Top - End - #152
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: What alignments are feasible for Enor & Ganji?

    What's been pointed out (a few times) is that what will kill a low level character stone dead will have minimal effect on a high level character.

    A case can be made that they know enough about "Nale" to mix lethal and nonlethal damage, and thus, knock him out without killing him.

    That case can't be made for Roy.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2011-10-24 at 09:25 AM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  3. - Top - End - #153
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ron Miel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignments are feasible for Enor & Ganji?

    Quote Originally Posted by Echonian View Post
    I Also, Ron: Elan was hit by that lightning breath while Enor was not really in control of his actions.

    Also, whether they were "trying" to kill them isn't all that important to the question of whether they were "trying" to kill Roy;

    Yes it is. Certain people in this thread are claiming that lightning breath is ALWAYS an attempt to kill, and that it cannot be anything else.

    the argument goes:

    1) lightning breath is ALWAYS an attempt to kill
    2) They used lightning breath against Roy
    3) Therefore they MUST have been trying to kill him
    4) Only evil people would try to kill him
    5) Therefore they are proved to be evil
    6) QED

    Simply showing that the first step in that chain is wrong, that's enough to invalidate the entire argument.
    .
    -.____________________
    ./___________________()-------Ron Miel
    |...___________________--------sits down
    |..| |_________________()-------and starts
    |..|/__________________--------singing
    | ___________________()-------about gold

    .

  4. - Top - End - #154
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: What alignments are feasible for Enor & Ganji?

    Lightning breath is always a lethal attack.

    However, a lethal attack is not always used with the intent of committing murder.

    If a person combines lethal attacks with nonlethal ones- on a character known to be of high level, then a case can be made that the lethal attacks were still part of a "take them alive" attempt.

    However- beginning a routine with a lethal attack- is more suggestive of lethal intent.

    Enor's first attack on Elan was a club attack- melee, so could have been nonlethal.

    Enor's first attack on Roy (not a bounty, but a stranger) was supernatural lightning breath- known to be lethal.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  5. - Top - End - #155
    Orc in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignments are feasible for Enor & Ganji?

    Actually, people in this thread try to differentiate between two damage concepts in D&D: Lethal damage and non-lethal damage. My observation is, for Ron "non-lethal damage" is equivalent to "less damage than necessary to kill an opponent". Though that is semantically correct, in D&D terms it is not. Lethal damage is a kind of damage that can kill you, if it reduces your hit points to -10. Non-lethal damage may only knock you unconscious.

    Non-lethal damage is quite useful for a bounty hunters, as it allows them to go all-out until the target is unconscious. Lethal damage, though able to knock a target out as well - by reducing it hit points to 0 to -9 - has the risk of outright killing it.

    I guess you were not familiar with this, as you said yourself you never played D&D much. That is why people differentiated this point so thoroughly. You were talking about different concepts.

  6. - Top - End - #156
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ron Miel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignments are feasible for Enor & Ganji?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    What's been pointed out (a few times)
    And it has been answered a few times too.

    is that what will kill a low level character stone dead will have minimal effect on a high level character.

    A case can be made that they know enough about "Nale" to mix lethal and nonlethal damage, and thus, knock him out without killing him.
    Except that their information did not apply to Elan, and they had no information at all about V and Haley.

    They still managed to capture them without killing them.

    That case can't be made for Roy.
    They know that Roy is a comrade-in-arms to one of their marks. They can reasonably guess that he's a tough guy.
    .
    -.____________________
    ./___________________()-------Ron Miel
    |...___________________--------sits down
    |..| |_________________()-------and starts
    |..|/__________________--------singing
    | ___________________()-------about gold

    .

  7. - Top - End - #157
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: What alignments are feasible for Enor & Ganji?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    They know that Roy is a comrade-in-arms to one of their marks. They can reasonably guess that he's a tough guy.
    Actually, Roy said "friends" and Gannji said "you and every other family member or comrade in arms. No can do, Sparky".

    He didn't care whether it was friend, family member, or comrade in arms- he simply gave Enor the "attack" codeword.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    Except that their information did not apply to Elan, and they had no information at all about V and Haley.

    They still managed to capture them without killing them.
    A "female rogue" and a "elf wizard" were on the Wanted poster. So they knew Nale had cohorts.

    The key part is knowing that they are high level- thus- they can deliver at least one lethal blow without actual danger of death to the target.

    Quote Originally Posted by raymundo View Post
    Actually, people in this thread try to differentiate between two damage concepts in D&D: Lethal damage and non-lethal damage. My observation is, for Ron "non-lethal damage" is equivalent to "less damage than necessary to kill an opponent". Though that is semantically correct, in D&D terms it is not. Lethal damage is a kind of damage that can kill you, if it reduces your hit points to -10. Non-lethal damage may only knock you unconscious.

    Non-lethal damage is quite useful for a bounty hunters, as it allows them to go all-out until the target is unconscious. Lethal damage, though able to knock a target out as well - by reducing it hit points to 0 to -9 - has the risk of outright killing it.
    Any target at negative hit points (-1 to -9) is "dying"- that is, they automatically lose hit points every round, but have a chance of stabilizing.

    However, a character who has taken both lethal and nonlethal damage, will usually fall unconscious before they reach negative hit points.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2011-10-24 at 10:00 AM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  8. - Top - End - #158
    Giant in the Playground Administrator
     
    The Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What alignments are feasible for Enor & Ganji?

    First, Gannji and Enor are both True Neutral, though Gannji leans a little more Lawful and Enor leans a little more Chaotic.

    Second, they were absolutely trying to kill Roy when Enor breathed lightning. A half-dragon's lightning breath does more lethal damage than 99% of the people in the world can withstand. However, remember that in the Empire of Blood, it would have been totally legal to kill Roy on the spot for asking about a legitimate bounty. The only reason it became an issue is because Kilkil "lost" the paperwork.

    Third, Enor using it on Elan earlier was representative of the fact that Enor was under the effect of the Suggestion and had no other alternatives to continue attacking. The bounty was "Dead or Alive," and in that moment, Dead seemed doable while Alive didn't (at least to Enor's simple mind). Once the Suggestion was broken, Enor reverted to striking for nonlethal damage.

    Fourth, this thread is unnecessarily hostile, and, since I just answered the main question, I'm locking it now.

    Thread closed.
    Rich Burlew


    Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!

    ~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •