Actually it is KNOWN that he will kill his Father. All that is known is that they have to eventually fight. It could potentially lead up to a Luke Skywalker & Darth Vader type thing where he invariable saves his Father from the Dark Side, but he still dies...
That is sort of a bitter sweet happy ending.
I think he would be a bit more upset about the anticlimactic part.
But remember sometimes the oracle lies or can lie which mean elan very well may not have a "happy ending" I think he will have to kill his father and brother sadly because it's obvious both of them fall in the evil aligment and it's just never going to work out. at the least they will end up un jail but even then..
But remember sometimes the oracle lies or can lie which mean elan very well may not have a "happy ending"
There's a difference between "the Oracle is no more compelled to make his ordinary statements truthful than Roy is" and "the Oracle's prophecies are sometimes lies." The Oracle is going to be torn apart because, when a druid asks if his wife is cheating on him, the Oracle will reply with the truth (amplified with condescending snark) instead of the obvious this-will-avoid-brutal-pain lie "No, she isn't," remember?
__________________
Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
If Redcloak reveals why he is doing everything can Elan really stop that AND have a happy ending?
Remember that all we know about the ending is that the Oracle can justify defining it as "happy".
Elan's Good, he's fought Xykon/Redcloak and he's fought goblins in the past, so even if it turns out that the story ends with the patently Evil goblinoids thoroughly defeated, RC slain, goblin blood everywhere, and also Elan's über-Evil father and brother both dead, it's certainly still technically a "happy ending" for the Good guys.
Elan didn't ask "Will I be perfectly happy with the story's ending?"...
He asked "Will this story have a happy ending [for me]?".
It's entirely possible to be personally unsatisfied with the exact details of a (generally) happy ending...
And there's just as much difference between those two formulations above as there is, for example, between
"Will I get to kill Roy?"
and
"Will I get to do something that will contribute to causing Roy's death?"
Personally, I think that Elan was loveable enough (see: stupid puppy) that the Oracle was being straight up with him about his fortune. It was a simple, arguably non-selfish question that was asked by one of the most naive, innocent characters in the entire party.
I kind of see similarities between how the Oracle answers questions, to how a Wish could (or could not) be perverted and twisted if it was really selfish or out of the spell's normal range of power.
__________________
Remember kids, always eat your veggies and drink plenty of milk.
"Happy ending" doesn't mean "everything and everyone basically decent lives happily ever after". There can be tragedies and losses along the way to the ending (see "Therkla, death of").
In Elan's case, not only his father and his brother, but even his mother - and Roy, his proxy father - could also die tragically, and still the ending would qualify as "happy" if he and Haley get to settle down peacefully somewhere.
And the idea of an "ending" implies that most, if not all, of the obvious loose ends are tied up. That implies that Nale, Tarquin, Xykon and Redcloak are all accounted for, and the Dark One's/goblins' plotline is resolved somehow, so that it won't come back to bite the world again in the near future.
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by warrl
"They didn't change the alignment system, they just augmented its inherent weaknesses and limitations with a few gaping holes."
Quote:
"Fairy tales do not tell children that dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children that dragons can be killed." - G K Chesterton
Personally, I think that Elan was loveable enough (see: stupid puppy) that the Oracle was being straight up with him about his fortune. It was a simple, arguably non-selfish question that was asked by one of the most naive, innocent characters in the entire party.
Elan's question, lovable puppy or not, was still extremely straightforward, and therefore my opinion is that there's no way the Oracle's simple "yes" answer can be considered an element supporting the idea that the state of the story, at its endpoint, will be completely devoid of any aspects Elan could possibly dislike.
(such as, for example, "the green/orange humanoids who only aspired to having the right of self-determination were, in the end, bloodily defeated". See this thread's OP.)
(such as, for example, "the green/orange humanoids who only aspired to having the right of self-determination were, in the end, bloodily defeated". See this thread's OP.)
No, the problem with that possibility isn't so much that "Elan wouldn't be entirely happy with it" as that "it wouldn't really be an ending". Military defeat would be a temporary setback for the goblins' cause, not a sustainable resolution.
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by warrl
"They didn't change the alignment system, they just augmented its inherent weaknesses and limitations with a few gaping holes."
Quote:
"Fairy tales do not tell children that dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children that dragons can be killed." - G K Chesterton
No, the problem with that possibility isn't so much that "Elan wouldn't be entirely happy with it" as that "it wouldn't really be an ending". Military defeat would be a temporary setback for the goblins' cause, not a sustainable resolution.
As someone wise once said, the ending is nothing but the point where the storyteller chooses to stop telling his story...
Whether or not Rich's chosen ending is "really an ending" to you or not, it's literally the story's one, true, official, complete, absolute ending. No ifs and buts about it.
Let's say the goblins are militarily defeated... they're simply back to square one, a monster race / XP fodder among others. Which is where they were in the first place and where they spent their first millenium since creation... so why wouldn't that state of affairs be reasonably "sustainable"? Personally, if it turns out the story ends that way, I won't be among those screaming "unresolved plot point!!"
And re: the OP, yes, the problem seemed to be exactly "Elan wouldn't be entirely happy with it". Which is why I'm throwing my two cents in here, saying that the way the Oracle gives his answers, it's pretty obvious that Elan's ending needn't be entirely happy to qualify.
As someone wise once said, the ending is nothing but the point where the storyteller chooses to stop telling his story...
Whether or not Rich's chosen ending is "really an ending" to you or not, it's literally the story's one, true, official, complete, absolute ending. No ifs and buts about it.
Let's say the goblins are militarily defeated... they're simply back to square one, a monster race / XP fodder among others. Which is where they were in the first place and where they spent their first millenium since creation... so why wouldn't that state of affairs be reasonably "sustainable"? Personally, if it turns out the story ends that way, I won't be among those screaming "unresolved plot point!!"
And re: the OP, yes, the problem seemed to be exactly "Elan wouldn't be entirely happy with it". Which is why I'm throwing my two cents in here, saying that the way the Oracle gives his answers, it's pretty obvious that Elan's ending needn't be entirely happy to qualify.
Who's to say the defeat of the Goblin will put them all the way back as XP fodder, a more diplomatic peace is still possible that allows for a Goblin nation that is accepted by the rest of the world with goblins no longer XP fodder, but an actual geopolitical force. Look at Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country, the Federation could have left the Klingons to die, instead hte beginnings of a peace emerged, and look what happened afterwards, Federation and Klingon vessels working together in combat against the Dominion, were there still negative encounters between the two? Oh yes, but the point is just because Red Cloak may be defeated, and Azure city perhaps liberated, doesn't mean our victors have to be over zealous in their peace demands.
Here's something people haven't considered Elan doesn't have to survive to have a happy ending. For him dying heroically to save the rest of the party and the world would be a happy ending.
Here's something people haven't considered Elan doesn't have to survive to have a happy ending. For him dying heroically to save the rest of the party and the world would be a happy ending.
Personally, I could see this kind of twist ending taking place, especially if it involves Elan sacrificing himself for Haley. Even though he may die at the end, Haley's survival could make it all worth it for him. Happiness is kind of relative, after all, and it would be somewhat unexpected.
__________________
...
Back to lurking, where the lurking-things lurk.
Spoiler
Fallen King avatar and the (Shielded) version by me, athough the original character design can probably be traced back to AWW.
It is worth remembering, here, the exact wording used.
Elan - "Will this story have a happy ending?"
Oracle - "Yes - for you, at least."
Assuming the Oracle said the truth, and didn't try to twist things around (a valid assumption given the way the Oracle reacts to his questioners in the manner they act towards him), then we can deduce the following:
a) the story will have an ending,
b) Elan will be happy when the story ends.
Personally, (and everyone except Rich has to add that qualifier) I believe that this means Elan will be alive and happy at the outcome.
This does not require the goblins to be permanently defeated.
This does not require the gates to be permanently sealed.
This does require that both Elan and Haley survive. (I cannot see Elan being happy if either of them dies, whatever the circumstances. Satisfied, possibly, but not happy.)
Everything else is up for grabs. My personal (and I repeat, personal) thought is that there will be members of the party that will be distinctly unhappy when the story ends.
Durkon - will return to his lands, posthumously. May well die within the sotry in order to have us see him returning.
Belkar - he will die. Lets just leave it at that.
Vaarsuvius - he may well die, or may well live. The denizens of hell controlling his body for a fateful few minutes may well decide which.
Roy - Ditto. He may well bite it making sure his team has a chance to prevail, or he may live on to become a future king. He may even be ensnarled without warning. Only Rich knows for sure.
We can also guess that this current plot arc involving his evil dad will be resolved before the end of the story. Including, possibly, reconciliation with Nale. Or possibly not.
As I have said before, only Rich knows for sure.
Excelsior!
Niknokitueu
__________________
Join the HackMaster revolution (now in the new and improved HMB format!)
Getting the Hack on since 2001 - I like my AD&D 'Old School'.
It is worth remembering, here, the exact wording used.
Elan - "Will this story have a happy ending?"
Oracle - "Yes - for you, at least."
Assuming the Oracle said the truth, and didn't try to twist things around (a valid assumption given the way the Oracle reacts to his questioners in the manner they act towards him)
I'd disagree with calling that assumption valid.
Regardless of attitude, from what we've seen in the comic, I'd venture a guess that the simple fact of being one of those disgusting, hairy, annoying mammals is likely enough to tick the Oracle off and put you into the category of un-welcome customers right then...
A good guy like Roy, being told "In his throne room" to the question "Where's Xykon?", you think that supports the assumption that the Oracle will go out of his way to make his answers particularly helpful if you're behaving like a good mammal during your visit?
Quote:
then we can deduce the following:
a) the story will have an ending,
b) Elan will be happy when the story ends.
Given the above, and as I said earlier in this thread on this page, I'd replace your b) with
b) the Oracle is confident he can easily defend/justify his labeling of Elan's ending as "happy" under the accepted/widespread/standard definitions of what generally constitutes a happy ending in fiction.
So my b) is actually slightly less restrictive than yours, and allows Elan to be unhappy at several aspects of the ending (for example, his father's fate, his brother's fate, the green humanoids who aspire to nationhood's fates)... as long as the good guys have won, the bad guys are defeated, and Elan/Haley are alive, it could technically pass off as a happy ending IMO.
RSS Feeds: 
Re: Elan's Happy Ending
