Results 1 to 30 of 175
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2011-12-06, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Location
- Luton, UK
Player feels he's being treated unfairly
So in a recent game my neutral-evil aligned party ended up on the Heroic Plains of Ysgard. Now this was not my fault as they randomly rolled for another plane while on the Astral Plane.
Now the CE Dread Necromancer player proceeds to piss off a high lvl Paladin npc and challenges him to a duel. I knew his plan in an instant. He wanted to kill the npc in a solo fight to reap the xp. He's done it before.
The paladin agrees to allow him time to prepare for the duel and so they seperate. He then proceeds to cast Unhallow so as to have an advantage when he unleashed his undead from his bag of holding.
I then declared that an avatar of Kord appeared, taking offence that someone would dare try to defile his plane and proceeded to squish the offending necromancer.
Now my player complained that I was picking on him but I simply replied that a good aligned god who would know that killing someone on his plane was not permanant (due to the true ressurection effect) would take a seriously dim view of someone desecrating his landscape and would intervene.
So my question is simple. Was my punishment to harsh, especially considering that all he lost from it was a day in character?
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2011-12-06, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
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2011-12-06, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
Nope. When you're on the plane of a god of battle I would avoid defiling it. And an Avatar showing up, which I believe wander around the plane, is perfectly acceptable.
Last edited by Zeborazor; 2011-12-06 at 04:59 PM.
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2011-12-06, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
The player got a True Rez out of the deal and they're still crying unfairness? It was a touch heavy handed of you, but it's not like the player lost anything except for a shot at free XP.
P.S: If the fight is significantly easier than normal - say, if the opponent gives the PC time to buff up without laying on a significant buff suite themselves - the encounter should give at most half XP. DMG, P. 39 specifically mentions what happens when an encounter is situationally more or less difficult than raw CR would indicate.
P.P.S: If the character is creating undead out of opponents he slays on Ysgard, that's going to piss off some very powerful people. A deux ex machina smackdown is precisely the sort of warning he should get. First offense is a warning, and he gets to be raised by the plane. After that, someone escorts him to the Outlands and squishes him. Or just deposits him in one of the lower planes directly.
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2011-12-06, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
Re: Player Feels He's Being Treated Unfairly
What the explanation of the original post tells me, or us, is that the Player was using a trick that they thought would work. Then the Player chose to complain when the trick didn't work. Assuming all of the information appropriate to determine the decision has been revealed I don't really think it's unfair. Unfair would be the Player's character being slain, annihilated, and prevented from reincarnating in any way.
However, I do think some...sympathy and understanding being shown toward that Player is appropriate. Perhaps they are upset that they were thoughtless enough to do something so foolish on such a plane of existence. So...aside the fairness of the situation for the character, it does seem that the Player requires some emotional consolation. This should not take the form of something that would benefit the character.
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2011-12-06, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
If I were the DM, I would ask the player at least three times what he's trying to do and if he thinks it is a good idea. If after being asked three times, he still thinks it is a good idea and goes through with it, I would have had Kord(or an aspect) destroy him for desecrating the plane.
Your player tried to do something stupid that he ought not have been able to get away with and you didn't let him do it. Nothing unfair about that.
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2011-12-06, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Location
- ⚣
- Gender
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2011-12-06, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- UTC -6
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
If an evil jerk takes a dump on your lawn and makes zombies out of the buried remains of your dearly departed pets from years past, wouldn't you be ticked off?
Also, Unhallow and undead creation spells may literally not work on good-aligned planes. Any Good deity worth worship would have a home plane that impedes [Evil] magic, and his home is likely strongly good-aligned. Furthermore, Unhallow has a 24-hour casting time. No Paladin is going to let a necromancer prepare by spending a day defiling a good-aligned plane.
Now, a better way of resolving it might have been the Paladin spending the day in prayer. Know what happens when a holy warrior prays to his god (of war!) for the power to defeat someone who is desecrating the god's very home? Either Solars start showing up or the holy warrior is granted a similar level of unbelievable power. You do not get away with this kind of thing.
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2011-12-06, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Location
- Somewhere Warm
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
Does Kord have some kind of vendetta with the Undead?
Because if he allowed the evil characters to enter, why are undead any worse?On a quest to marry Asmodeus, lord of the Nine Hells, or die trying.
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2011-12-06, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2011
- Location
- R'lyeh
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
I think he has the vendetta with people defiling his plane. Seriously, you would think that he would think that he was being treaty too kindly, with armies of solars not appearing and or the paladin guy killing him on the spot.
Illud quod aeternitatem iacere potest non mortuus est, ac dis peregrinis etiam mors moriatur.
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2011-12-06, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Location
- Somewhere Warm
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
Wait- Ys-whatever is that Valhalla-ish plane right?
Chaotic Good? Everyone fights and comes back to life the next day?
Oh. Then the necro can't complain. At least Kord didn't banish him before he could pop back to life.On a quest to marry Asmodeus, lord of the Nine Hells, or die trying.
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2011-12-06, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- UTC -6
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
You're on Ysgard, a plane favored by some good gods. You cast Unhallow. This is essentially casting "cover their front lawn with crap." Even though Kord is CN, he probably doesn't take well to having some random jerk pop up and desecrate his front lawn.
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2011-12-06, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
Minor point of order; Kord is CG, not CN.
Which means he'd be even more irritated that someone was casting unhallow in his backyard. Especially since the necromancer was doing it to give himself an undue advantage during a duel (which runs directly counter to Kord's dogma as I understand it).If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it.
When in doubt, set something on fire. If not in doubt, set something on fire anyway.
My Homebrew
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2011-12-06, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Location
- Somewhere Warm
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
On a quest to marry Asmodeus, lord of the Nine Hells, or die trying.
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2011-12-06, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- I wish I knew...
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
Yea, it's not the challenge that he had a problem with. Considering the locale, that's par for course and to be expected.
It's the casting of Unhallow which pisses him off. Also, cheating in a one-on-one duel (by bringing in allies) would rather piss him off.
You agreed to a one-on-one duel. Then you bring in an ally. Duel null and void, proceed to curb-stomp.
He should feel lucky that he was allowed to True Res. He could've just gotten dropped off in Limbo.SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2011-12-06, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
It depends.
Did you already have a plan in motion to stop this fight from happening, or did you roll for it? You said you knew he did it before, was this motivation to make sure it didn't happen again?
Fair is subjective. Sure the DM can do what they like, but if the player was directed into believing that he was going to get to fight this paladin, got his spells ready, and then its taken away, you in a way robbed him of his way of RPing.
Now if he was just cheating the system, that's a bit different.
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2011-12-06, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- UTC -6
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2011-12-06, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- I wish I knew...
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
If he had just dueled the Paladin, he would've probably gotten away with it. But he cheated... that's the problem. Between the Unhallow and the 'allies appearing out of nowhere'... he violated the terms of the duel. On a plane dedicated to dueling. What the **** do you think is GOING to happen when you do that?
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2011-12-06, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- Penthouse Suite
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
I'd make sure you tell the player, out of character, (or in if you want to use big-booming-god voice) why he got curbstomped by Kord's aspect. Mainly, what others above me have said. He wen't against the doctrine of the resident god AND tried to defile said god's backyard. You don't do that and come out unscathed.
Awesome Avvy by Sizlord!
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2011-12-06, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Location, Location
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
Since it's a Chaotic plane I would say no Chaotic God should have an issue with things being a little different or even chaotic. I would have allowed the unhallow and even had a group of onlookers laugh at the necromancer.
I would have had the paladin sunder the bag of holding though. Because that isn't a fair fight...bringing in allies.
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2011-12-06, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2011
- Location
- R'lyeh
- Gender
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2011-12-06, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Location, Location
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
If Kord's aspect would be so hurt and threatened by a mortal then why let him in at all? Isn't that the very REASON the Plains of Ida exist...to better your skill. You can't get better fighting the same thing all the time.
If anything the paladin was the one cheated. He lawfully accepted a duel and had it taken from him by an avatar.Last edited by Stubbed Tongue; 2011-12-06 at 07:08 PM.
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2011-12-06, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- Penthouse Suite
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
Dieties are not all powerful in D&D. They do have limited ability to sense reality. If Kord was too far away from the party's entry point, he wouldn't even know they had entered his domain unless they said his name. I also believe that unless the diety in question is a paladin, they don't have an innate ability to detect alignments either. Its not so much fighting and getting better or being threatened by the player. Its dirty fighting (which is against Kords Dogma) and trying to infuse pure evil energy into a Good-aligned plane.
Last edited by MesiDoomstalker; 2011-12-06 at 07:06 PM.
Awesome Avvy by Sizlord!
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2011-12-06, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Minnesota
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
Avatar of George the Dragon Slayer, from the upcoming Indivisible!
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2011-12-06, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Location, Location
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
Hmmm, I see your point. I think perhaps dispelling the unhallow and letting the fight continue would have made the most sense. Or even letting it go on unchanged. That's what I would have had the avatar do.
Oh well, everyone DMs different. In either case the player shouldn't feel cheated he lost nothing but some time as others have mentioned.
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2011-12-06, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Location, Location
- Gender
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2011-12-06, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- Penthouse Suite
- Gender
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2011-12-06, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
- Location
- Stuck in a bottle.
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
I believe the implication was that the Paladin was indeed ready to fight the duel, and further gave his opponent time to prepare (honorable indeed). If you schedule a duel with someone and aren't able to fight it because they're killed by an un-involved third party (the Avatar had no real favoritism, but rather went against a violation of the plane itself), you're not cheating. You're just unable to fight them, since they're already dead.
The Avatar stepped in when the Necromancer defiled the plane, and also when he effectively cheated in the duel: time for "preparation" is, in all traditional forms of dueling that we have in our world, a time to practice, hone your skills, and prepare your mind. It is not a time to warp the battlefield to your advantage, nor to prepare it for your X dozen allies who were hitherto unseen. A duel is one vs. one in a fair arena, or it is not really a duel.
Considering that and the fact that unhallow was cast in the home plane of a Chaotic Good deity, I feel the PC got off rather lightly.Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2011-12-06 at 07:18 PM.
Ingredients
2oz Djinn
5oz Water
1 Lime Wedge
Instructions
Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.
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2011-12-06, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Location, Location
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
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2011-12-06, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
- Location
- Stuck in a bottle.
- Gender
Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly
Eh. Easy mistake to make.
If anything the paladin was the one cheated. He lawfully accepted a duel and had it taken from him by an avatar.
If anything the paladin was the one *who* cheated. He lawfully accepted a duel and had it taken from him by an avatar.
It's extremely easy to insert that "who" in there automatically. I did so at first.
If anything the paladin was the one who was cheated would have made your meaning far more apparent, but that's neither here nor there.Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2011-12-06 at 07:23 PM.
Ingredients
2oz Djinn
5oz Water
1 Lime Wedge
Instructions
Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.