Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

[Mikal]

Fair point.

Either way, Coffeelock is just more rigid in its build now for self sufficiency- It needs to be high enough level and able to cast Greater Restoration on itself, so that means Divine Soul and 9 levels of Sorcerer or 3 levels in Sorcerer and 9 levels in a class that gives you 5th level casting and G.R. (Bard I guess.)

That or they walk on the wild side for a few days and make Con checks before forcing themselves to rest.

Of course, that also means Aspect of the Moon is actually completely superfluous for the Coffeelock. Since you're going to need to perform a Long Rest eventually (or G.R. yourself past the exhaustion whenever you fail the save), AotM is now useless for you. Which means Bladepact and Chainpact can both benefit, if using the exhaustion rules, and if you're wanting to unleash the full potency of your Coffeelock. Elven versions can just be considered decaf.

[Naanomi]

Out of curiosity, what non-CoffeeLock possibilities had you come up with?

That depends a lot on how stringent your GM is about what counts as light activity...
-active guard duty, setting up traps, searching for stealthing spies instead of relying on passive perception, etc
-light scouting
-searching safe areas of the dungeon for secret doors you missed
-attempting to solve the puzzle your party could solve by trial an error all night
-item crafting

But, as someone with a Tome filled with scry magic I can ritually cast, and a few scrying spells on my own spell list, I’d guess I’d use my ‘long-rest’ times for that.

Guess I should just be an Elven warlock, since they get half-time long rests for Trancing when my ‘no sleep at all’ ability doesn’t even do that

[Tanarii]

The relevant optional rule (XgtE 78): "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion."

Because of course the rule that specifically says it is about sleep deprivation has nothing to do with actually needing to sleep.

[Mikal]

Because of course the rule that specifically says it is about sleep deprivation has nothing to do with actually needing to sleep.

*shrug*, like I said so many times, that's what makes sense when reading it, but JC decided the other way. If that's how it rolls, that's how it rolls (until contradicted sometime in the future).

[LeonBH]

Because of course the rule that specifically says it is about sleep deprivation has nothing to do with actually needing to sleep.

You're misrepresenting it, there. You typically need to sleep when taking a long rest, so for literally everyone else but the AotM Warlock (and Elves), taking a long rest has everything to do with sleep, and therefore skipping a long rest has everything to do with sleep deprivation.

AotM creates a specific rule that divorces sleep from long rests, and therefore it divorces long rests from sleep deprivation. That doesn't mean the rule on sleep deprivation now no longer has anything to do with sleeping.

[XmonkTad]

*sigh* that does pretty much torp a coffeelock that tries to gain a week or two worth of spell slots before greater restoration becomes available.

Still, this makes AtoM a super weak invocation, since it basically only let's you spend the long-rest milling about, yet preserves the need for the rest. I would actually put eyes of the rune keeper above this in terms of flavor/power, but that's just me. I don't understand why AotM has a prerequisite, there doesn't seem to be a reason.

I would probably stick with the original conception of the Coffee Drow where you would trance for 4 hours, (resetting everything with a long rest) and then just use remaining 4 hours of the night chaining short rests together to give you a little extra power throughout the day. 1 level of exhaustion isn't a killer, so you could probably just push through nights till you get your first level of exhaustion, have a normal adventuring day, then sleep the exhaustion off (in 4 hours thanks to elf).

[Grod_The_Giant]

No, you need 6 hours of sleep at a minimum. Check the 2nd page of the PHB Errata.

The long rest rule was supposed to say, you need 8 hours of downtime of which you need to either sleep or do light activity, but the light activity can only be 2 hours at most. The implication was you needed to sleep for 6 hours. I believe they clarified this by explicitly saying you need 6 hours of sleep as part of a long rest now.

Ah. Not entirely useless, then, but still pretty damn bad.

[Tanarii]

You're misrepresenting it, there. You typically need to sleep when taking a long rest, so for literally everyone else but the AotM Warlock (and Elves), taking a long rest has everything to do with sleep, and therefore skipping a long rest has everything to do with sleep deprivation.

BS. I am not misrepresenting anything. The XtGE rule specifically says, and I quote, "If you want to account for the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures, use these rules".

Edit: sorry, is your argument that AotM lets you not sleep during Long Rest, but doesn't stop sleep deprivation? Because that's just stupid. Because that just makes AotM as completely pointless as Elf Trance used to be. Especially since they just changed elf Trance for the exact opposite reason.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

It's officially backed up though, his tweets are authoritative, at least for learning the RAI.

That... is depressing as hell.

Ah well. It's not that different from the 3E Sage Advice and FAQ stuff, except that now I have an additional so-described authoritative source to ignore. If it's printed in a book or the errata to a book, fine. I'm still not having official rulings made on a personal twitter account.

[LeonBH]

BS. I am not misrepresenting anything. The XtGE rule specifically says, and I quote, "If you want to account for the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures, use these rules".

It's not BS because you can see that JC clarifies that AotM does not let you skip a long rest. You should update your belief to be in line with the clarified rules now, because there's really no sense in debating on the side of the wrong answer.

You're misrepresenting something. You typically need to sleep when taking a long rest, taking a long rest has everything to do with sleep, and therefore skipping a long rest has everything to do with sleep deprivation.

AotM creates a specific rule that opposes the general rule. That doesn't invalidate the general rule for the general case.

Edit: sorry, is your argument that AotM lets you not sleep during Long Rest, but doesn't stop sleep deprivation? Because that's just stupid. Because that just makes AotM as completely pointless as Elf Trance used to be. Especially since they just changed elf Trance for the exact opposite reason.

No, I'm not arguing at all. I'm telling you that AotM does not let you skip a long rest.

That... is depressing as hell.

Ah well. It's not that different from the 3E Sage Advice and FAQ stuff, except that now I have an additional so-described authoritative source to ignore. If it's printed in a book or the errata to a book, fine. I'm still not having official rulings made on a personal twitter account.

I understand the feeling. But it may be worth pointing out, the Twitter account is "official." He doesn't post non-WotC stuff on that account.

[Tanarii]

there's really no sense in debating on the side of the wrong answer.

I appreciate JCs tweets for clarification in his belief and insight into the intent of the rule, but please don't try to represent them as "the right answer".

No, I'm not arguing at all. I'm telling you that AotM does not let you skip a long rest.

Right. Because any character can skip a long rest. They just don't get back any resources.

Not only that, they can do it without penalty, unless the DM implements an optional rule.

[LeonBH]

I appreciate JCs tweets for clarification in his belief and insight into the intent of the rule, but please don't try to represent them as "the right answer".

Right. Because any character can skip a long rest.

Not only that, they can do it without penalty, unless the DM implements an optional rule.

You're free to ignore the evidence.

And I agree it's an optional rule. No debate there.

[Tanarii]

You're free to ignore the evidence.

And the evidence is contained in the optional rule. It applies to sleep deprivation.

Unless you are arguing AotM doesn't prevent sleep deprivation, the optional rule would not apply.

[LeonBH]

And the evidence is contained in the optional rule. It applies to sleep deprivation.

Unless you are arguing AotM doesn't prevent sleep deprivation, the optional rule would not apply.

Once again, you are free to ignore the evidence.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I understand the feeling. But it may be worth pointing out, the Twitter account is "official." He doesn't post non-WotC stuff on that account.

It's also not a corporate account run by the company, like an @SageAdvice account (amusingly, @SageAdviceDnD is entirely unofficial and 3rd party). Either way, using a medium as fleeting as Twitter for rules clarifications is absurd unless they intend to codify this stuff as an errata document.

[Elminster298]

And the evidence is contained in the optional rule. It applies to sleep deprivation.

Unless you are arguing AotM doesn't prevent sleep deprivation, the optional rule would not apply.

Aotm does not prevent you from getting physically and mentally tired. You no longer need sleep but you still need to rest your body and mind to prevent exhaustion. This just simply makes sense in every way.

[rbstr]

It's also not a corporate account run by the company, like an @SageAdvice account (amusingly, @SageAdviceDnD is entirely unofficial and 3rd party). Either way, using a medium as fleeting as Twitter for rules clarifications is absurd unless they intend to codify this stuff as an errata document.

They do...they've got both Errata and Sage Advice compendium PDFs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Aotm does not prevent you from getting physically and mentally tired. You no longer need sleep but you still need to rest your body and mind to prevent exhaustion. This just simply makes sense in every way.

Makes sense in every way except "making the ability worthwhile," which it absolutely does not. As it currently stands, all it does is, maaaaaybe, let you stand watch all night. That's pathetic as a ribbon ability, much less a limited opportunity choice that's competing with things like Agonizing Blast and Disguise Self at will.

[Mikal]

Makes sense in every way except "making the ability worthwhile," which it absolutely does not. As it currently stands, all it does is, maaaaaybe, let you stand watch all night. That's pathetic as a ribbon ability, much less a limited opportunity choice that's competing with things like Agonizing Blast and Disguise Self at will.

Yup. AotM is pretty much neutered to uselessness, if using the exhaustion optional rule. The only benefit it provides is making you immune to the sleep spell... which you'll be around level 4-5 anyway, depending on how your HP rolls go.
In other words, welcome back trap options! We missed you (no we didn't)!

[Easy_Lee]

Out of curiosity, what non-CoffeeLock possibilities had you come up with?

Tomelock + Assassin Rogue: assassin who can see in the dark, never needs to sleep, and can stalk his target indefinitely. Also gains some utility from Tomelock and warlock spells (ex: darkness).

Hex Tomelock X + Paladin 6: fights evil all day and all night, can cast curative paladin spells or use smites with his short rest slots. Still wants long rests to restore his slots, but doesn't technically need them, just an hour of rest every now and again.

Regular Sorlock - Divine Soul: use long rest time to take short rests, restore sorcerer long rest slots, and maintain a small number of zombies. Similar to a Necromancer but who trades higher level spell slots and spell variety for heals, invocations, and stronger at-will damage.

The possibilities are endless and, mostly, flavorful.

[RedMage125]

Can't coffeelock still work with an elf?

Trance for 4 hours (counts as long rest with new errata), take 4 short rests to trade in warlock slots for Sorc points? You still get a long rest every day, but you can start each day with 4 short rests worth of sorcery points.

I feel like I'm forgetting something.

[Avonar]

Can't coffeelock still work with an elf?

Trance for 4 hours (counts as long rest with new errata), take 4 short rests to trade in warlock slots for Sorc points? You still get a long rest every day, but you can start each day with 4 short rests worth of sorcery points.

I feel like I'm forgetting something.

The elf Trance means you only need 4 hours of meditating. It does NOT change the 8 hour long rest requirement. Just means you have an extra 2 hours during a long rest that you can do stuff.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Can't coffeelock still work with an elf?

Trance for 4 hours (counts as long rest with new errata), take 4 short rests to trade in warlock slots for Sorc points? You still get a long rest every day, but you can start each day with 4 short rests worth of sorcery points.

I feel like I'm forgetting something.

The theoretical optimization version would go for days, weeks, or months without long resting to build up arbitrarily large stockpiles of slots. An Elf taking an extra four short rests before starting the day is much more limited.

[RedMage125]

The elf Trance means you only need 4 hours of meditating. It does NOT change the 8 hour long rest requirement. Just means you have an extra 2 hours during a long rest that you can do stuff.

I though that there was errata that clarified that an elf finishes a "long rest" with 4 hours of trance?

[Mikal]

I though that there was errata that clarified that an elf finishes a "long rest" with 4 hours of trance?

gah sorry, you're right. they did change it so the actual duration is lessened. So, two hours of "trance", two hours of light activity, plus another 4 hours.

Decaf Coffeelock is viable

[RedMage125]

The theoretical optimization version would go for days, weeks, or months without long resting to build up arbitrarily large stockpiles of slots. An Elf taking an extra four short rests before starting the day is much more limited.

Right, so this is more manageable, less broken, less offensive, and still within a valid reading of RAW, right?

Have we found a valid compromise?

Decaf Coffeelock is viable

I love the name! Let's make it official!

[Naanomi]

The theoretical optimization version would go for days, weeks, or months without long resting to build up arbitrarily large stockpiles of slots. An Elf taking an extra four short rests before starting the day is much more limited.

But serves as a reasonable 'holdover' until you get Greater Restoration and the build can take off again

[SharkForce]

You're misrepresenting it, there. You typically need to sleep when taking a long rest, so for literally everyone else but the AotM Warlock (and Elves), taking a long rest has everything to do with sleep, and therefore skipping a long rest has everything to do with sleep deprivation.

AotM creates a specific rule that divorces sleep from long rests, and therefore it divorces long rests from sleep deprivation. That doesn't mean the rule on sleep deprivation now no longer has anything to do with sleeping.

it does have nothing to do with sleeping. i can sleep for 6 hours, fail to perform light activity for 2 hours and suffer from sleep deprivation. i've gotten enough sleep by the rules. why am i sleep deprived? by that rule, sleeping does not prevent sleep deprivation, only long rests do.

They do...they've got both Errata and Sage Advice compendium PDFs.

the great majority of the twitter responses are not in either of those places.

[Ganymede]

People are really going down swinging on this issue.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

People are really going down swinging on this issue.

I don't care about whether CoffeLock (or any particular build, really) gets broken; I do think it's asinine to issue any sort of rules statement through Twitter. RAI guidance I can just about accept.