Balancing the Favored Soul

[Galactkaktus]

I shall choose to engage in this discussion, but I'd like to make it explicit we're tilting things in favor of one side. Let's assume the following:

1. The opponents start 65ft away from each other (as close as possible on a grid)
2. The non-Sorcerer goes first
3. The Sorcerer fails their saving throw against Slow

The optimal strategy against the Sorcerer after those three things is for the non-Sorcerer to walk 30ft up to them, so they're 35ft away.

Now, the Sorcerer can only move 15ft (separating them by 50ft at most) and cannot leave the non-Sorc's Counterspell range... unless they Dash and move a further 15ft, getting 65ft away. Having used their movement and action, they can use their Quickened Dispel Magic (bonus action) and suddenly be free of Slow.

As such, their speed no longer gets halved. They regain their original speed, recover their unspent movement, and may move another 30ft. At this point, they can get closer and become within 35ft of the non-Sorc.

Then it's the non-Sorc's turn. Let's say they move 30ft away (now 65ft away), cast Slow again, and the Sorc auto-fails their Wis save due to lacking proficiency in the save. That's fine. Now, they have moved their full movement and used their action.

Come around to the Sorc's turn, they cast Quickened Dispel Magic with their bonus action, move 30ft, and Dash for another 30ft. Now they are in melee. The non-Sorc cannot move outside the Sorc's Counterspell range without being chased or followed.

--

As for Contingency, you're correct. It's not subject to Counterspell. It is subject to See Invisibility, though.

Fine lets prebuff the wizard with longstrider.

[LeonBH]

Fine lets prebuff the wizard with longstrider.

Let's do the same for the Sorcerer. Mobile Feat.

EDIT: Actually, for that matter... let's give the Sorcerer the Resilient (Wisdom) Feat.

[Galactkaktus]

Let's do the same for the Sorcerer. Mobile Feat.

Fine i give up on the idea of slow let's try confusion instead. Before level 17 because wish into mind blank. I still think that sorcerer build is hillarious counterspell and dispel magic + see invisibility oh and mobile because of longstrider xD

[Ignimortis]

I shall choose to engage in this discussion, but I'd like to make it explicit we're tilting things in favor of one side. Let's assume the following:

1. The opponents start 65ft away from each other (as close as possible on a grid)
2. The non-Sorcerer goes first
3. The Sorcerer fails their saving throw against Slow

The optimal strategy against the Sorcerer after those three things is for the non-Sorcerer to walk 30ft up to them, so they're 35ft away.

Now, the Sorcerer can only move 15ft (separating them by 50ft at most) and cannot leave the non-Sorc's Counterspell range... unless they Dash and move a further 15ft, getting 65ft away. Having used their movement and action, they can use their Quickened Dispel Magic (bonus action) and suddenly be free of Slow.

As such, their speed no longer gets halved. They regain their original speed, recover their unspent movement, and may move another 30ft. At this point, they can get closer and become within 35ft of the non-Sorc.

Then it's the non-Sorc's turn. Let's say they move 30ft away (now 65ft away), cast Slow again, and the Sorc auto-fails their Wis save due to lacking proficiency in the save. That's fine. Now, they have moved their full movement and used their action.

Come around to the Sorc's turn, they cast Quickened Dispel Magic with their bonus action, move 30ft, and Dash for another 30ft. Now they are in melee. The non-Sorc cannot move outside the Sorc's Counterspell range without being chased or followed.

--

As for Contingency, you're correct. It's not subject to Counterspell. It is subject to See Invisibility, though.

As someone who's played 5e sorc...if you've got both Counterspell and Dispel Magic, you're playing an anti-caster niche role for the majority of the usual play levels. That's two 3rd level spells that only work against casters. That's also 1/4th or more of your spell list until you hit level 9. As a single-classed storm sorcerer of 6th level, I've got the following spells right now:
1st level: Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile (basically a requirement, since sometimes you just want to autohit, and sometimes you're gonna be a target for an AC attack).
2nd level: Lightning-subbed Scorching Ray (given for free by the DM, doesn't count against spells known), Shatter (the go-to AoE spell so far), Gust of Wind (situational at first sight, quite often useful in practice).
3rd level: Fly, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell.

That's it. I could ditch Lightning Bolt, true. But that would break the theme. That's all sorcerer is good for in 5e - pick a specific theme or niche, and then try to get by with your spells known, because you're not gonna get any more. If the player picked up both Dispel Magic and Counterspell, then they really want to shut down mages. Let them, then.

Besides, your described strategy just got the sorcerer to drop two 3rd level spellslots just to catch up. That means they've got only one Counterspell left at best, unless they're willing to upcast it and spend more slots that are supposedly for actually doing something besides denying an action.

[LeonBH]

Fine i give up on the idea of slow let's try confusion instead. Before level 17 because wish into mind blank. I still think that sorcerer build is hillarious counterspell and dispel magic + see invisibility oh and mobile because of longstrider xD

Have you never seen a Sorcerer take Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and See Invisibility before? They're incredibly fulfilling to play when there are casters in the opposing side. Not all Sorcerers are blasters. Some don't even take Fireball.

To take the Mobile feat, that is less common. But if we're throwing in feats, let's replace that with Resilient (Wisdom) instead.

Confusion is also effective due to its extended range. Unfortunately, only 7-8 prevents the Sorcerer's actions. Rolling a 1-6 still lets them use Quickened Dispel Magic, and rolling a 9-10 allows them to go through their turn unimpeded.

Even if they roll a 7-8, if there is a creature to make a melee attack against in their immediate reach, then they can use Quicken Dispel Magic.

As someone who's played 5e sorc...if you've got both Counterspell and Dispel Magic, you're playing an anti-caster niche role for the majority of the usual play levels. That's two 3rd level spells that only work against casters.

This is undeniably true.

That's also 1/4th or more of your spell list until you hit level 9.

Personally speaking, I always multiclass, regardless of the class I'm playing. I find that no one class can do all the things I want to do once I come up with a theme. I also love the complexity of it.

But as a single-classed Sorcerer, you are definitely excluding other spells from your spell list.

As a single-classed storm sorcerer of 6th level, I've got the following spells right now:
1st level: Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile (basically a requirement, since sometimes you just want to autohit, and sometimes you're gonna be a target for an AC attack).
2nd level: Lightning-subbed Scorching Ray (given for free by the DM, doesn't count against spells known), Shatter (the go-to AoE spell so far), Gust of Wind (situational at first sight, quite often useful in practice).
3rd level: Fly, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell.

My spell selection depends on the theme of my character and the metamagics I'm picking up. My go-to list though, which I more or less add to or remove from for my Sorcs:

0: GFB, Firebolt
1. Mage Armor, Shield, Silent Image
2. Suggestion, Phantasmal Force
3. Dispel Magic, Counterspell
MM: Subtle, Heighten

I never take damage spells at low levels (besides cantrips, which are my bread and butter). I've switched things around and so on, depending on the level and the party. And usually I multiclass at level 2 to something else to fill my theme (I did a Bard/Sorc/Wiz once), but as far as the Sorcerer stuff goes, those are the things I play around with.

That's it. I could ditch Lightning Bolt, true. But that would break the theme. That's all sorcerer is good for in 5e - pick a specific theme or niche, and then try to get by with your spells known, because you're not gonna get any more. If the player picked up both Dispel Magic and Counterspell, then they really want to shut down mages. Let them, then.

Agreed. But alternatively, they got burned by an NPC mage at level 1, their best friend died in the game, and now they want to shut down that particular mage so the party can kill him.

Besides, your described strategy just got the sorcerer to drop two 3rd level spellslots just to catch up. That means they've got only one Counterspell left at best, unless they're willing to upcast it and spend more slots that are supposedly for actually doing something besides denying an action.

Don't forget that they burned two 3rd level slots for Slow, too. And as a Sorcerer, assuming level 6 (which is your character level) you could have started the day with five 3rd level slots, one 1st level slot, and 6 Sorcery Points.

[Unoriginal]

Isn't the Xanathar's version already balanced?

[Galactkaktus]

Have you never seen a Sorcerer take Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and See Invisibility before? They're incredibly fulfilling to play when there are casters in the opposing side. Not all Sorcerers are blasters. Some don't even take Fireball.

To take the Mobile feat, that is less common. But if we're throwing in feats, let's replace that with Resilient (Wisdom) instead.

Confusion is also effective due to its extended range. Unfortunately, only 7-8 prevents the Sorcerer's actions. Rolling a 1-6 still lets them use Quickened Dispel Magic, and rolling a 9-10 allows them to go through their turn unimpeded.

Even if they roll a 7-8, if there is a creature to make a melee attack against in their immediate reach, then they can use Quicken Dispel Magic.

I never assumed that all of them are blasters i whould just take other spells than primarily see invisibilty. Well forecage should make it so you can atleast just not fight that sorcerer.

[Galactkaktus]

But one thing wizards should have the advantage from level 13 until level 16 because of Simulacrum.

[LeonBH]

I never assumed that all of them are blasters i whould just take other spells than primarily see invisibilty. Well forecage should make it so you can atleast just not fight that sorcerer.

No luck. Forcecage can be escaped by Misty Step, which triggers a Charisma save. The Sorcerer has proficiency on that one.

But one thing wizards should have the advantage from level 13 until level 16 because of Simulacrum.

The one who has the advantage is the one who rolls initiative first. But the Sorcerer can weasel out of losing initiative against a fellow caster, if they were prepared.

For example, if the Sorcerer won initiative, they can cast a Twinned Dispel Magic (120ft range) on the simulacrum and the Wizard and turn the fight into a 1v1 again, also removing the Wizard's pre-cast buffs, such as Contingency.

Undeniably, if they failed the initiative roll, the better action economy of the twin Wizards will beat the lone Sorcerer. It's a 2v1 fight and action economy is king. Their single Counterspell might block one blow, but cannot block both at once.

EDIT: I want to make a note though that the Sorcerer has a better chance of winning initiative, due to Enhance Ability (1 hour buff) which the Wizards don't have.

[Matheau]

All Favored Soul really gets is the ability to cherry pick a few Cleric spells and some mediocre features. The ability to use metamagic with Cleric spells really doesn't amount to much. Twinning doesn't work or isn't helpful for the vast majority of Cleric's spell list. Most of the other metamagic are either situational for things that almost never occur or Cleric can do something similar some other way.

Potentially useful, but largely in the "only in this hypothetical situation created specifically to justify why this is a good idea" sort of way. It isn't bad, by any means, but Favored Soul isn't doing anything that can't, more or less, be done by something else. Cleric, with the right domain, is arguably a better way to have a hybrid of arcane and divine spells than Favored Soul. Having more prepared spells and the ability to swap your divine spells is a lot more useful than being able to fine tune your arcane spell choices a bit more (either way, you are still locked in to your choices) and metamagic. That isn't to say Cleric is inherently better than Favored Soul, it is just that Favored Soul is not a hybrid and can't function effectively as one. It is a Sorcerer with some extra spell options and none of those options are particularly broken in comparison to other options Sorcerer has.

[Galactkaktus]

No luck. Forcecage can be escaped by Misty Step, which triggers a Charisma save. The Sorcerer has proficiency on that one.



The one who has the advantage is the one who rolls initiative first. But the Sorcerer can weasel out of losing initiative against a fellow caster, if they were prepared.

For example, if the Sorcerer won initiative, they can cast a Twinned Dispel Magic (120ft range) on the simulacrum and the Wizard and turn the fight into a 1v1 again, also removing the Wizard's pre-cast buffs, such as Contingency.

Undeniably, if they failed the initiative roll, the better action economy of the twin Wizards will beat the lone Sorcerer. It's a 2v1 fight and action economy is king. Their single Counterspell might block one blow, but cannot block both at once.

EDIT: I want to make a note though that the Sorcerer has a better chance of winning initiative, due to Enhance Ability (1 hour buff) which the Wizards don't have.

I whould say that Diviner wizards and war mages has a pretty good chance of winning initiative.

[rbstr]

Isn't the Xanathar's version already balanced?

Yeah, it's fine. Like there's some pretty fun stuff in there but I really see nothing so inherently amazing about the Cleric list + metamagic that causes the Divine Soul to be out of line.

I guess they want to argue about increasingly convoluted mage duels and old playtest content instead?

[LeonBH]

I whould say that Diviner wizards and war mages has a pretty good chance of winning initiative.

This is true. But if we're taking subclasses into account, Wild Magic and Favored Soul are not far behind.

And with advantage on the roll, they would be more than competitive.

[LeonBH]

Yeah, it's fine. Like there's some pretty fun stuff in there but I really see nothing so inherently amazing about the Cleric list + metamagic that causes the Divine Soul to be out of line.

I guess they want to argue about increasingly convoluted mage duels and old playtest content instead?

Sorry. Yeah, we derailed the thread. It started when someone said metamagic was situational at best. I gave one example for each metamagic which shows the Sorcerer can do a potent thing other classes can't. Someone else picked up on my subtle spell example specifically (in an attempt to show subtle spell is no big deal?) and now here we are.

[Galactkaktus]

This is true. But if we're taking subclasses into account, Wild Magic and Favored Soul are not far behind.

And with advantage on the roll, they would be more than competitive.

I'm sorry but i fail to see what you are refering to what do favored soul sorcerers have to help them win intiative? And wild sorcerers can get advantage on the initiative roll with tides of chaos which they already had access to with enhance abillity so i don't see the advantage they bring to initiative. And +5 to initiative>advantage as is rolling for it with advantage once and if you are not happy with the result you can try again without advantage. wait i guess guidance for divine soul? If that is the case they are still at an disadvantage.

[LeonBH]

Bend Luck for the Wild Mage, which stacks with advantage. Guidance doesn't work for the Favored Soul as it's concentration. I was thinking of Favored of the Gods, though I've just realized it works only for saves and attacks, not ability checks.

Well, I suppose you just have the Wild Mage who has the edge on initiative.

Edit: Portent must be used before any dice are rolled, and a +5 is not superior to advantage. They are the same when the target is a roll of 10 (kind of), but advantage has a higher reliability.

[Galactkaktus]

Bend Luck for the Wild Mage, which stacks with advantage. Guidance doesn't work for the Favored Soul as it's concentration. I was thinking of Favored of the Gods, though I've just realized it works only for saves and attacks, not ability checks.

Well, I suppose you just have the Wild Mage who has the edge on initiative.

Edit: Portent must be used before any dice are rolled, and a +5 is not superior to advantage. They are the same when the target is a roll of 10 (kind of), but advantage has a higher reliability.

Portent is supperior since i first roll once effectivly with advantage(when i do the roll for portent) so if i used any of those rolls it whould be the same as advantage i just rolled at another time. But i also have the option of rolling a new d20 if i'm not happy with my previous roll.

And the average roll with advantage is 13.825 the average with +5 whould be 15.5 which is higher.

[LeonBH]

Portent is supperior since i first roll once effectivly with advantage(when i do the roll for portent) so if i used any of those rolls it whould be the same as advantage i just rolled at another time. But i also have the option of rolling a new d20 if i'm not happy with my previous roll.

And the average roll with advantage is 13.825 the average with +5 whould be 15.5 which is higher.

The 50% chance with advantage is 15, actually. See this: http://anydice.com/program/b38

The average result is 13.8 but the chance of rolling at least that is 64%. The 50% midpoint is 15.

Portent is undoubtedly powerful. It's my favorite Wizard ability. If you want to see it as 3d20 for initiative, the 50% midpoint is 17. It's within the reach of Bend Luck.

[Galactkaktus]

The 50% chance with advantage is 15, actually. See this: http://anydice.com/program/b38

The average result is 13.8 but the chance of rolling at least that is 64%. The 50% midpoint is 15.

Portent is undoubtedly powerful. It's my favorite Wizard ability. If you want to see it as 3d20 for initiative, the 50% midpoint is 17. It's within the reach of Bend Luck.

Except for the fact that you can use low roles on the opponents initiative. And the midpoint for +5 should be 16 there is 50% chance to roll atleast 16. But i do concede that bend luck will give the sorcerer a slight edge in initiative if you combine it with advantage on the initiative roll against the war mage but if we get to level 17+ that changes again since the war mage can use foresight to gain advantage on initiative. But portent should just give the diviner a significant edge against the sorcerer when it comes to initiative.

[samcifer]

The real strengths of the Divine Soul are one free re-roll of an atk or saving throw roll per short or long rest, access to the cleric spell list and the ability to combine metamagic with the spells from another class without multi-classing, which no other variation of sorcerer can accomplish.

The cleric spells add more than one new approach to spell selection and gameplay, letting a sorc be a healer or a better buff character as well as more ways to affect combat (such as Spirit Guardians, etc.).

[LeonBH]

Except for the fact that you can use low roles on the opponents initiative.

I agree. That's why I said "if you wanted to treat portent like a 3d20 on initiative." You were making it out so that you had pre-advantage on your initiative roll and you could just roll again if you didn't like your previous result... that is highest 1 of 3d20.

And the midpoint for +5 should be 16 there is 50% chance to roll atleast 16. But i do concede that bend luck will give the sorcerer a slight edge in initiative if you combine it with advantage on the initiative roll against the war mage

Well, 15.5, really. The 50% midpoint using advantage and Bend Luck is between 17 and 18, let's call it 17.5.

but if we get to level 17+ that changes again since the war mage can use foresight to gain advantage on initiative.

I mean, both casters have access to Wish at that level. It will be an epic duel for sure, but the Sorcerer gains access to Contingent Globe of Invulnerability as well as Simulacrum. It becomes a 2v2 fight, and we're back to the Sorcerers being better Counterspellers than Wizards.

And yes, Wizards get Contingent Globe of Invulnerability earlier, but the Globe itself is subject to a Subtle Dispel Magic.

But portent should just give the diviner a significant edge against the sorcerer when it comes to initiative.

Agreed. Diviner Wizards are the best at manipulating the dice. While bad luck can still ruin their day (they can't use Portent on both initiative rolls at the same time), they're far less likely to be unlucky.

The real strengths of the Divine Soul are one free re-roll of an atk or saving throw roll per short or long rest, access to the cleric spell list and the ability to combine metamagic with the spells from another class without multi-classing, which no other variation of sorcerer can accomplish.

The cleric spells add more than one new approach to spell selection and gameplay, letting a sorc be a healer or a better buff character as well as more ways to affect combat (such as Spirit Guardians, etc.).

They don't get a re-roll, they get to add 2d4 to it (which, depending on what you ended up rolling, is either better or worse).

[Galactkaktus]

I agree. That's why I said "if you wanted to treat portent like a 3d20 on initiative." You were making it out so that you had pre-advantage on your initiative roll and you could just roll again if you didn't like your previous result... that is highest 1 of 3d20.

The reason why i said that was that it was an easy way to demonstrate that portent was superior to advantage you don't need any math to understand that advantage with the option to reroll is better than advantage. I only tried to show that portent was superior to advantage and that is sufficent proof of that.

Well, 15.5, really. The 50% midpoint using advantage and Bend Luck is between 17 and 18, let's call it 17.5.

Which is why i conceded that the wild mage sorcerer had an advantage over the warmage when it comes to initiative. Just one nitpicking thing an advantage +5 has is that you can still gain advantage.

I mean, both casters have access to Wish at that level. It will be an epic duel for sure, but the Sorcerer gains access to Contingent Globe of Invulnerability as well as Simulacrum. It becomes a 2v2 fight, and we're back to the Sorcerers being better Counterspellers than Wizards.

You can't have contingent globe of invulnerbility contingency only works with spells of level 5 or bellow.

[Zene]

The fact that we have yet another thread on whether the DS is overpowered is mind-boggling. Get ready for 7+ pages of bickering over hypotheticals!

But also, let me join in :)

Don't let it multi-class.

If it splashes a level for medium or heavy armor proficiency it becomes insanely powerful.

Constitution saves, heavy/medium armor and spirit guardians is OP AF.

Don't forget Absorb Elements, Shield, Aid, and Death Ward.

They some tough MF's.

(Yeah, as some folks have pointed out, you can all that stuff on other builds. Those builds would be powerful too. But the DS can do it as a straight class, apply metamagic to it, and use Font of Magic to do it more times per day.)

I see metamagic as an extremely fancy tool, that looks like it is godly useful, but rarely actually is...
It's a very situational thing.

Whoah. You and I must play very different games.

I didn't mean to say that Metamagic isn't useful
My point was that too many people place an emphasis on the 'potential' of broken combos when combined with metamagics
They focus on that 'potential' so much that they inflate and inflate how good it actually is
Then we get people thinking that the Metamagics are just brokenly powerful
When in actual play they present you with a fairly decent tool, but nothing really exaggerated

Basically the bark is loud, but the bite is soft

Ah, I gotcha. Yeah, I'd agree. I'm guessing 99.99% of the folks arguing sorcs are overpowered via hypotheticals, have never actually played one across multiple tiers. They're a fun class, you can do neat things with metamagic, and DS is a strong subclass, but no sorc breaks the game.

Schrodinger's Sorcerer is godly, but his wave function collapses when you observe him in an actual game.

Portent is supperior since i first roll once effectivly with advantage(when i do the roll for portent) so if i used any of those rolls it whould be the same as advantage i just rolled at another time. But i also have the option of rolling a new d20 if i'm not happy with my previous roll.

And the average roll with advantage is 13.825 the average with +5 whould be 15.5 which is higher.

Man, I really don't want to jump into a "how powerful is portent, let's argue via examples" discussion.... but you do realize portent is 2 (or 3 at endgame) dice per long rest, right? And you do realize a Wild Sorc gets advantage _all_day_long_ if they build right, and if the DM doesn't nerf surges? How is this even a discussion?
(Sorry in advance if I missed some key point that explains how this is a discussion)
(Also, if we take this outside of initiative rolls, by the endgame any Wizard tradition beats the Wild Sorc by any number of measures, so I think it's ok to let the Wild Sorc have his initiative roll superiority)

[LeonBH]

The reason why i said that was that it was an easy way to demonstrate that portent was superior to advantage you don't need any math to understand that advantage with the option to reroll is better than advantage. I only tried to show that portent was superior to advantage and that is sufficent proof of that.

I agree. Portent is superior to advantage.

Which is why i conceded that the wild mage sorcerer had an advantage over the warmage when it comes to initiative. Just one nitpicking thing an advantage +5 has is that you can still gain advantage.

This is true. It just seems like there's no Wizard spell that gives easy access to advantage on initiative.

You can't have contingent globe of invulnerbility contingency only works with spells of level 5 or bellow.

You can if you use Wish to cast Contingency. When you upcast Contingency, the contingent spell can be cast one level higher, to a maximum of an 8th level contingent spell for a 9th level Contingency.

Nope, that was Glyph of Warding. Never mind.

EDIT: Although, Glyph of Warding is available to the Divine Soul. Pretty interesting if he could drag the Wizard to his glyphs.

Man, I really don't want to jump into a "how powerful is portent, let's argue via examples" discussion.... but you do realize portent is 2 (or 3 at endgame) dice per long rest, right? And you do realize a Wild Sorc gets advantage _all_day_long_ if they build right, and if the DM doesn't nerf surges? How is this even a discussion?
(Sorry in advance if I missed some key point that explains how this is a discussion)
(Also, if we take this outside of initiative rolls, by the endgame any Wizard tradition beats the Wild Sorc by any number of measures, so I think it's ok to let the Wild Sorc have his initiative roll superiority)

We were talking under the assumption of "He who wins initiative, wins the game" for this one. If the Sorc won, a Subtle Dispel Magic (from within 60ft) or a Twinned Dispel Magic (from beyond 60ft) will dispel all the Wizard's buffs and his simulacrum.

We've been talking with simplified mechanics and implicitly assuming actions succeed. The previous discussion was about a Wizard using Slow or Confusion on a Sorcerer and how that Sorc could get out of it, assuming the Wizard's spell always goes off.

[Zene]

We were talking under the assumption of "He who wins initiative, wins the game" for this one. If the Sorc won, a Subtle Dispel Magic (from within 60ft) or a Twinned Dispel Magic (from beyond 60ft) will dispel all the Wizard's buffs and his simulacrum.

We've been talking with simplified mechanics and implicitly assuming actions succeed. The previous discussion was about a Wizard using Slow or Confusion on a Sorcerer and how that Sorc could get out of it, assuming the Wizard's spell always goes off.

Ah, fair enough. I'll stay out of this one. Just thinking of how much that would depend on glyphs and contingencies and first strikes and demiplanes and divinations and simulacrums and familiars with rings of spell storing and other minions and shapechange/true polymorph and how many days each may have gotten to prepare is making my head spin.

[LeonBH]

Ah, fair enough. I'll stay out of this one. Just thinking of how much that would depend on glyphs and contingencies and first strikes and demiplanes and divinations and simulacrums and familiars with rings of spell storing and other minions and shapechange/true polymorph and how many days each may have gotten to prepare is making my head spin.

Well, we're wavering at what level this duel is actually taking place at and which builds are involved. So it can get confusing. Once it becomes a game of rocket tag, it's hard to predict the outcome.

But I was saying, the Sorc can disable the Wizard blow for blow due to Subtle Spell. If we took it down to pre-Simulacrum levels, Quickened Dispel Magic and Subtle Counterspell pretty much ensure the Wizard is disabled. Post-Simulacrum, the Sorc needs to win initiative or lose due to the action economy.

At Wish levels, he who wins initiative, wins.

[Galactkaktus]

I just think it's fun to try and find a winning strategy against a sorcerer in a mage duel since Subtle spell is so potent in a mage duel slow came close but quicken dispel magic solved that problem. Harder challenges are more fun than easier ones.

[Galactkaktus]

I shall choose to engage in this discussion, but I'd like to make it explicit we're tilting things in favor of one side. Let's assume the following:

1. The opponents start 65ft away from each other (as close as possible on a grid)
2. The non-Sorcerer goes first
3. The Sorcerer fails their saving throw against Slow

The optimal strategy against the Sorcerer after those three things is for the non-Sorcerer to walk 30ft up to them, so they're 35ft away.

Now, the Sorcerer can only move 15ft (separating them by 50ft at most) and cannot leave the non-Sorc's Counterspell range... unless they Dash and move a further 15ft, getting 65ft away. Having used their movement and action, they can use their Quickened Dispel Magic (bonus action) and suddenly be free of Slow.

As such, their speed no longer gets halved. They regain their original speed, recover their unspent movement, and may move another 30ft. At this point, they can get closer and become within 35ft of the non-Sorc.

Then it's the non-Sorc's turn. Let's say they move 30ft away (now 65ft away), cast Slow again, and the Sorc auto-fails their Wis save due to lacking proficiency in the save. That's fine. Now, they have moved their full movement and used their action.

Come around to the Sorc's turn, they cast Quickened Dispel Magic with their bonus action, move 30ft, and Dash for another 30ft. Now they are in melee. The non-Sorc cannot move outside the Sorc's Counterspell range without being chased or followed.

--

As for Contingency, you're correct. It's not subject to Counterspell. It is subject to See Invisibility, though.

An error slow prevents you from taking a bonus action since you took the dash action!!!

[LeonBH]

An error slow prevents you from taking a bonus action since you took the dash action!!!

Huh, well, you're right. It looks like the Sorcerer must gamble on a 50% chance of a Subtle Dispel Magic in this case, after all.

Oh, if only Distant Spell was compatible with Counterspell. Hehe.

May I just say, if the tables were turned and it was the Wizard who was Slowed via Heighten Spell, they would have no Subtle Dispel Magic to fall back on. :P

And this defeat requires the precise setup of their starting distances (there is only a 20ft allowance for the Wizard to start at, within 75ft to 55ft of the Sorcerer, or Quickened Dispel Magic becomes available), and three rolls to go their way: the initial Wis save, the d20 being rolled on an 11 or higher, and the second Wis save at the end of the Sorcerer's turn. They must also go first in initiative.

I would also further like to say, that the Wild Mage and the Favored Soul are very resilient against these kinds of saves.

But yes, if everything falls exactly as described above, the Wizard can rob the Sorcerer of their Subtle Counterspell using Slow and win the duel.

[samcifer]

I agree. That's why I said "if you wanted to treat portent like a 3d20 on initiative." You were making it out so that you had pre-advantage on your initiative roll and you could just roll again if you didn't like your previous result... that is highest 1 of 3d20.



Well, 15.5, really. The 50% midpoint using advantage and Bend Luck is between 17 and 18, let's call it 17.5.



I mean, both casters have access to Wish at that level. It will be an epic duel for sure, but the Sorcerer gains access to Contingent Globe of Invulnerability as well as Simulacrum. It becomes a 2v2 fight, and we're back to the Sorcerers being better Counterspellers than Wizards.

And yes, Wizards get Contingent Globe of Invulnerability earlier, but the Globe itself is subject to a Subtle Dispel Magic.



Agreed. Diviner Wizards are the best at manipulating the dice. While bad luck can still ruin their day (they can't use Portent on both initiative rolls at the same time), they're far less likely to be unlucky.



They don't get a re-roll, they get to add 2d4 to it (which, depending on what you ended up rolling, is either better or worse).

Damn, yeah, you're right. I remembered the effect wrong. Sadly I keep forgetting to use that as well as Hexblade Curse. As most of our fights last 2 rounds or so, it's easy to forget to use HC because you'd get two chances to do anything before the battle is over most of the time.