How is Bard Support in Pathfinder?

[Coidzor]

I've been looking into it in order to create a bit of a rake and italian-inspired adventurer and the base class and archetypes all seem to have only minor abilities.

I haven't yet looked into their feat support yet though, does that improve their abilities or give them better grounding?

[Bhaakon]

Compared to 3.5, the PF bard gets very little love. Most of the more powerful 3.5 prcs, feats, etc. buffed the bard's best abilities: spellcasting and performance. In PF, OTOH, most of the bard archetypes are focused on flavor or increasing a bard's martial prowess (though not enough to make melee a good go-to tactic for bards). The only feat that stands out is discordant voice, which gives allies' attacks 1d6 bonus sonic damage while you perform.

[HunterOfJello]

I thought that the general concensus was that vanilla bards are a bit better except that inspire courage got nerfed a bit, but that there's nowhere near enough support for them as there was in 3.5 .

Bards are great in 3.5 because of the large collection of splatbooks. PF just doesn't have the same amount of material.

[Person_Man]

Well theoretically it's a non-issue, since one of the big selling points for Pathfinder is that it's supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.X D&D.

But assuming that you're using only Pathfinder material, I would say that it's a big step down. Although it's far superior to the vanilla core only Bard, you'd be giving up Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, Doomspeech, Crystal Echoblades, Snowflake Wardance, Slippers of Battledancing, Song of the White Raven, and a number of fairly potent PrC and spells from 3.5 splat books. And you have to track everything in rounds, which is an annoying bookkeeping fixation in Pathfinder.

[Psyren]

PF-only Bard is skim milk.
3.P Bard is a White Russian.

[Curious]

PF core Bard is somewhat better than the 3.5 version, since it folds some of the splat-book love into the base class, but it has far less of the awesome splat-book support. A must-have for any Bard is Lingering Performance, which basically triples the number of rounds of performance available to you per day, and Discordant Voice is also good. Something else to remember; PF Bards can cast normally while performing without having to grab a feat now.

[Cieyrin]

I've been looking into it in order to create a bit of a rake and italian-inspired adventurer and the base class and archetypes all seem to have only minor abilities.

I haven't yet looked into their feat support yet though, does that improve their abilities or give them better grounding?

What archetypes have you looked at? I've found that Archivist provides some nice battlefield control, Magician makes 'em much like the Lyric Thaumaturge and Sandman turns them into Spellthieves. PrC wise, in the core books, they have fairly exclusive rights to Pathfinder Chronicler, which focuses away from casting for focusing on expanding Bardic Music, including Epic tales, which can further expand the availability of their music and get around some of the target limits (like Inspire Greatness on everybody), as well as granting of extra actions with inpunity. The other PrC is the Battle Herald, which seems aimed at theurging Bard with Cavalier to make a Marshal or something like it.

[Daftendirekt]

The biggest blow PF bard took over 3.5 bard is the inability to stack songs -- Pathfinder bard specifically says you cannot. The awesomeness of 3.5 bard was the ability to stack Inspire Courage AND Dragonfire Inspiration for oodles of bonuses. Also, having music be in rounds instead of uses raises the question of the usability of Healing Hymn, one of the tastiest bard ACFs.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

The biggest blow PF bard took over 3.5 bard is the inability to stack songs -- Pathfinder bard specifically says you cannot. The awesomeness of 3.5 bard was the ability to stack Inspire Courage AND Dragonfire Inspiration for oodles of bonuses. Also, having music be in rounds instead of uses raises the question of the usability of Healing Hymn, one of the tastiest bard ACFs.

The PF bard spell, "Virtuoso Performance" allows you to to play two performances at once: though the second performance costs twice as many round of performance. So basically, you burn three rounds of performance per round to stack two performances.

bards definitely are lacking the punch of 3.5, but with various archetypes, expanded spell lists, and just a general beefing up in Core, bards are even more versatile than before. IMO.

[Curious]

The PF bard spell, "Virtuoso Performance" allows you to to play two performances at once: though the second performance costs twice as many round of performance. So basically, you burn three rounds of performance per round to stack two performances.

bards definitely are lacking the punch of 3.5, but with various archetypes, expanded spell lists, and just a general beefing up in Core, bards are even more versatile than before. IMO.

That sounds like it should stack wonderfully with Lingering Performance. Spend two rounds to get one round of a second performance, and then get it for free for another two rounds. Repeat as necessary.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

That sounds like it should stack wonderfully with Lingering Performance. Spend two rounds to get one round of a second performance, and then get it for free for another two rounds. Repeat as necessary.

throw in the level 2 bard spell "allegro" and you just got a free haste spell, as long as you were performing already, and as long as you maintain the performance, up to the spells duration. (1 round/level). You can also dismiss the spell to gain a re-roll on a Dex based skill or Reflex roll as an immediate action.

Bard support is definitely there for Pathfinder, it just isn't as ridiculous as 3.5.

[Coidzor]

What archetypes have you looked at?

All of the ones at d20pfsrd.com.

I'm really not seeing a basis for claiming that the Archivist provides battlefield control though. Or how Sandmen are supposed to be good at being spellthieves.

I suppose I'll check out those PrCs next.