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Thread: Plan vs Improv
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2018-11-02, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
Re: Plan vs Improv
This is not the issue. The problem was: How would your players know how long to wait? How would they know where to look for the goblins? - You can plan all you want, but to your fellow players that doesn't matter unless you communicate what you are doing. It doesn't matter if you pulled that invasion out of your... brain, of if you had an exacting plan, if your folks can't tell the difference. Your problem is not the content but the presentation.
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2018-11-02, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2015
Re: Plan vs Improv
That is high praise in today's world. And quite the responsibility too. Well {rolls shoulders} let me see what I can do...
As an editor I will pull out: What is the point of your post? Or the main point(s) your post. Is this "layers" classification something you want to hammer out or is it just a tool for getting at some other points? Actually everything beyond this point is really based on guesses about that answer... or just more questions.
On Layers: From what I can tell we have the following: planned events, planned facts, planned plans (I say this is a subset of planned facts, the facts are just what people are planning), planned information and planned responses (which might just be a type of planned event). Of the non-redundant ones here is how I read each:
- Planned Events: Things that are planned to happen but haven't happened yet. From anyone's perspective the difference between a planned event and a planned reaction is who will be stating that the event occurred, you or someone else. That thin divide is why I combined them, although maybe that is an important distinction.
- Planned Facts: Things about the world or characters in it that are true but have not been revealed yet. Hence, in a tree falling in the forest kind of way, they are subject to change without notice. Hin.
- Planned Information: Things you plan to reveal, as well as when and how you plan to reveal them. The builds off of planned facts, but also brings in a lot of game-concerns about, as an example, planned content (which would be "where are the planned facts").
The other point I will address is the one that I feel has the best chance of being your main point.
IMO, the safest thing to change - without risking Railroading, or Quantum Ogres, or inconsistencies - is the information you give. Now, whether that's the information you give the PCs, or the information you give the players depends a bit on your style, and why you believe that they aren't taking what you believe would be a more fun path for them.
How open you are to metagame communication will influence the odds that your beliefs about their fun and their reasoning are correct.
If this is your main point, I think we could hear more about the types of information that could used (we seem to have missing in-world and out-of-world facts in this example) and how to communicate it. For the record I think that saying "Hey guys, [thing]" is a fine way to inform the players about [thing], especially when the thing is out-of-world or is something characters know, but the players forgot.
And then there is knowing when the piece of information did not get across. Rule of thumb, if people do something that doesn't make sense, maybe they missed something.
OK hope that helps. I ended up adding some stuff, but maybe that will add some useful perspective.
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2018-11-02, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
- Location
- Canberra, Australia!
- Gender
Re: Plan vs Improv
I like this approach, when I DM I make sure I know what my NPC's are planning, and unless the PC's do something, how those plans will go. If the PC's weren't there to help defend the town, it will fall to the Goblins. That doesn't mean that there's no adventure, it just means that there is a different one. Maybe some of the milita fought their way free, maybe there were survivers hiding among the ruins that can point them in the right direction, maybe it's time to go all 'three hunters' from LotR and track the Goblin war party and either rescue the villigers, or avenge them!
Either way, I'd have played it at least a bit like OP did, in that I'd know when and how the attack would come about, and would have changed it depending on what the PC's did.
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2018-11-03, 01:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
- Location
- Berlin
- Gender
Re: Plan vs Improv
That's actually not the issue here.
Roughly speaking, we have three main directions when it comes to playing styles:
- Simulation
- Action game
- Story game
With direction, I mean that this is the main focus of concern that will dictate how the rules are used, how content is used, the basis for pacing, flow of information and how the players are supposed to have their characters act and so on.
Itīs important that this should be communicated between all participants and cleared up, else a mismatch happens and at least one side of the table will be pretty unhappy. I say this because it really ready like this is what happened on your table, you created a simulation and your players want an action game type of D&D experience instead. Neither side is right or wrong here, but that doesn't have anything to do with "improv" at all.
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2018-11-03, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Plan vs Improv
Well, I did have a couple ways for them to learn of the attack date: there is a spy in the town, a double agent to plays both sides..naturally his goblin ally told him. There is the goblin spy, disguised as a halfling fishing in the river just south of town. and the five goblin advance raiders east of the town know too.
But a big part of the problem was the players did not want to explore the town or talk to any NPC. They were just set on doing the attack.
There are more forces. The goblin force spread out to attack all the small villages. I though this would have been a good idea myself, but the players wanted to stick with the fight the whole force at once idea.
They might be the first players I've met that did not seek out any information about anything.
That is the tricky part though? If I just say their are goblins at spot x, that is the same as having the goblins be whereever they are, right?
How open you are to metagame communication will influence the odds that your beliefs about their fun and their reasoning are correct.
They were simply coming the farthest away.
Hummm...food for thought here.
I did not like it....but really I don't often see such bad plans. I was thinking they had something up their sleeve....but they did not. Even when they decided to leave town I was thinking they might want to patrol around the town or something.
I try to avoid asking questions like this, is that wrong? I feel players get the wrong idea from DM questions. I want to give answers, not ask questions.
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2018-11-03, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Plan vs Improv
Both of these sound like communication issues - really bad plans often come from people having different understandings of the situation, which is only exacerbated when the GM won't ask any questions to try and rejoin these understandings. Remember that the characters have full sensory perception of the world in its details, and the players are getting a single descriptive stream and nothing else - there's a lot of room for critical information to be lost, and a second pass can help here.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2018-11-03, 03:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2016
- Location
- New Zealand
- Gender
Re: Plan vs Improv
To me this isn't a question of whether to plan ahead or improvise, but a question of how much information the players got from you. Something as simple as 'Farmer John saw a band of goblins approaching from the south. He guessed they were a week's march away from here. That was four days ago,' from an NPC when the PCs arrived would have solved the issue. You said that your players weren't interested in talking to NPCs, but you have to remember that D&D NPCs are not video game NPCs: they don't just stand around with exclamation points over their heads waiting for the players to come to them. Town leaders will likely be asking the PCs about their plans, and wanting to provide information so the plans are as well-informed as possible.
Even if the players couldn't know when the goblins were planning to attack, if I was running and they told me they wanted to wait for the attack to come to them my response would be "all right, how long are you willing to wait for, and what will you be doing in the meantime? How are you preparing the village for the attack?" And then, rather than just saying 'the day passes uneventfully', I'd have a bunch of mini-events in the days leading up to the event. Maybe on day one the local cowardly barkeep is caught trying to flee the town. On day two the PCs could have to deal with an upset villager who doesn't like that a bunch of strangers from who-knows-where have shown up and are basically running the place. Having things like this happen makes the players feel like they're supposed to be there, while 'nothing happens, what do you do next?' makes them feel like they're doing the wrong thing.
I actually had a similar situation myself in my game a while ago. My players had managed to seize a village from a hostile force, and had found out that the villain was planning to do 'something' on a particular (un)holy day. Initially they wanted to hunker down and wait for the bad guy to come to them, and while they did that I had a few events happen; a villager had a dispute with the paladin about the paladin's unpopular deity, and the barbarian got to train some villagers who wanted to fight like he does. The players were hunkering down because they thought the villain's plans involved retaliating against them, so I had their scouts come back with information that, in fact, the villain was planning to do whatever it is he's planning long before the PCs were on the scene. That made them have an 'oh damn' moment so they got together and headed out to beat up the villain before the day he was preparing for came around. Good thing, too, because if they'd remained in place the villain's plan would have made things much harder for them.Thank you to Honest Tiefling for my awesome avatar!
Spoiler: Astofel's Simple Rules for a Happy Life
1. Always stop to pet a cat
2. Don't be a donkey
3. Always take the opportunity to make a dumb joke
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2018-11-03, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Nottingham, UK
Re: Plan vs Improv
So, if it helps any, I quite like the sound of this set-up. Feverishly building defenses, trying to guess if they have time to spend on special projects and, above all, the tension ratcheting up every hour the goblins don't appear.
It sounds pretty awesome.
I just don't think your players quite bought into it - or, maybe, didn't see it was there at all. Which isn't necessarily your fault, or theirs. People do just misunderstand things sometimes, and depending on what your players are used to, the idea of dramatic tension or doing much of anything other than killing things and taking their stuff could be entirely alien to them. Hence they just wander off and start looking for things to kill and loot.
I also think that your time line and fixed locations were fine, and would do the same thing.
If there's a mistake you made here, it's probably not clearly telegraphing that the goblins weren't to the north, and making it clear that if they kept going they were going to be too far from the village to help if the goblins attacked. Tell them, clearly, there's no sign of the goblins in the direction they've chosen - if you don't want to tell them that directly OOC (and there's nothing wrong with that), have them find a farmstead that's untouched and the farmer tells them that there's been no sign in these parts. Or there is a sign of the goblins - forage parties and small bands that have obviously skirted the village and gone south.
What's obvious to you isn't necessarily obvious to the players. Don't be afraid to hit them over the head with it if it becomes apparent they've missed something. And if you're not sure what they're up to, always, always double check they're not working on flawed information.
I also think you could have done more to get them involved in building the defenses - if they're supposed to be in charge, then have people come to them with questions. We can make more spears, but that means leaving the village to cut spear shafts from the woods and there might be goblins, is it worth the risk? The blacksmith needs more coal, but going to get more will take several days and require an armed guard for the carts, should they go? Should they try and dig a defensive ditch? Barricade the streets? Do they have the people available to finish those tasks in time, and if not, where should they focus their efforts? What do they do about the crops and livestock in the fields?
Ask, challenge, make them think and get them involved. I might not work - heck, it might be exactly what you did - but at least you tried, and you'll know the biggest problem was just that they didn't care for the set up you presented them. Which is a crying shame.Amazing Banshee avatar by Strawberries. Many, many thanks.
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2018-11-03, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2015
Re: Plan vs Improv
Why do you avoid them? Or why do you feel players- get the wrong idea from GM questions?
I use them because knowing what someone else knows is pretty important to giving them information. It keeps you from uselessly repeating large swaths of information or leaving gaps in important background. And if you are the one on the learning side, it is really hard to ask the right questions. It is hard to know what you don't know, because you don't know it.
For instance I was able to whip off my reasons for these questions because they are familiar to me. On the other hand my commentary on your reasons amounts to rewriting your statements with question marks at the end. Because that is all the information I have right now.
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2018-11-03, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Plan vs Improv
Undeniably yes. It is your job to give them important context and help them know what kind of decisions need to made to successfully navigate your adventures. Giving them agency does not include simply watching them fail without making an effort to direct or aid them in their goals. If you don't ask them questions about their thinking or asking them important questions about their actions, you are denying them important context that their characters would readily be able to do.
As I said, they definitely had a horrible plan, but you completely and totally failed to properly direct or contextualize their actions. Failing to do so was probably a form of tacit consent for their horrible actions.
This is not a question of planning or improv, this is a question of your willingness as a DM to utilize both properly.Back in my day we used all of our spells before the fight, and it was just a matter of time before the DM realized his encounter was over.
And we walked to our dungeons uphill through the snow, both ways.
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2018-11-03, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
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Re: Plan vs Improv
Now that you know these players didn't understand how the game works, you will need to prompt them. You need to help them learn how to play D&D, and that will require out of character communication from you.
Not just give them answers, but prompt them to ask questions and seek the answers with their characters.
Also, unless there is some prompt or some motive for doing so, there's no reason to expect them to wander around talking to everyone in town. So there was a disguised goblin fishing south of town? Did they have any clues that there were spies they should be looking for? Even if they saw him, why would they stop to have a conversation with a random fishing guy, unless there was something specific they were looking for?
In the scenario you described, you could have prompted them by asking things like:
"How will you all prepare for the attack? Do you know the size of the force or where it's coming from?"
Or, have an NPC or two approach them, since I'm assuming it was obvious that they were there to help defend the town- who could have offered a rumor about spies or tell them that there are shady people about, or otherwise given them the idea that they need to gather info about the invading force.
There was clearly not enough or clear enough information about the scenario to prompt them toward useful action. Even if other players in the past might have been more proactive or made logical use of less information, these guys will need more guidance, at first. They might think that the game is just a series of combats that happen to their characters. Even if you need to speak to them out of character, you need to encourage the right type of thinking.
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2018-11-06, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: Plan vs Improv
Sounds like your players were invested but do not know how to play yet or are too use to story/plot protection.
I once killed half a party because they attack the Tarrasque. This killed that campaign and some players were upset that their story ended and I responded that I wouldn't care if my hero completed their personal struggle if failure wasn't an option. So that is the kind of game I run. Failure is always an option.
That won't always work with every group. It sounds to me that your players need an easier campaign to get warmed up before they start thinking.
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2018-11-06, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: Plan vs Improv
So, Cluedrew gave me an awesome reply (one of 2 I've gotten in the past week) but I've been battling migraines, and haven't felt up to giving the type of response something that detailed deserves. Hopefully tomorrow will be better.
Until then, back to the OP.
First and foremost, your players are wrong - this is not an issue of improv being the "one right way", and planning being wrong.
There is, however, an issue of a right and a wrong way to implement any given style.
There was a thread on these forums about the role of the GM. My stance is that anyone can host, anyone can handle rules adjudication, anyone can handle dealing with problem players - up to calling the police if necessary. But only the GM can serve as the eyes and ears of the characters, only the GM knows what is going on in the game world and can serve as the interface between the players, their PCs, and the game world.
It is that reasonability that the GM must shoulder alone, and that responsibility that you are shirking when you say, "I try to avoid asking questions like <but you know the [towns raided by the] goblins are south, why go north>, is that wrong? I feel players get the wrong idea from DM questions. I want to give answers, not ask questions". The GM is, IMO, uniquely positioned to be the only one to tell players what their characters perceive the world, the one responsible for distilling the input of a while party full of characters' senses and instincts into brief, actionable items, and who can notice when players' statements don't seem to match what they would believe to be reasonable, can inquire as to whether something has been misunderstood, and fix the disconnect.
So, high level, there's nothing wrong with a "Planning" style. But there are plenty of Playgrounders who will be more than happy to give you critiques of various levels of usefulness on your particular implementation of that style.
My advise? Change your focus to asking about the specifics of your style - perhaps in this thread, perhaps in a new one. Also, consider telegraphing your style to your players, if your area has as table-flip indoctrination of "Improv or BadWrongFun".
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2018-11-06, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2014
Re: Plan vs Improv
I have to agree with Quertus. The problem has been misdiagnosed.
The issue appears to be that you don't want to ask leading questions. Well enough.
But your players' actions fully indicated they had too-little information. When my players do something that is blatantly the opposite of a good idea, I need to stop and make sure we're all on the same page. More often than not, they aren't idiots and I just described badly or they missed a single crucial word among the deluge of description.
(Which, by the way, when it comes to describing scenes it is often better to describe like Hemingway rather than Tolkien. Just the important bits plus a light sprinkling of flavor.)
YOU should not have a problem telling the players things their characters would reasonably know. If this is their home town, they know who the town priest is. They know who the blacksmith's boy is. They know the rumor that Old Man Bjern cut up his wife with a hatchet and hid her in his taxidermied bear. They also know that's just a story he spreads to keep the children away.
If they live in this town or have a basic understanding of the local geography, they know what way to go if they want to see the ruined towns. It's ok to remind them that their characters would know all the attacked towns were South of here, not North.
Also just skip time if nothing meaningful is going to happen in that time. Don't jerk your players around like that. Just go to the time when things are happening, and signal escalation in small ways:
"Last night, a town guard claimed to see a goblin scout."
"We haven't heard from Farmer Tom down south since yesterday."
"Young Bill could hear howling as the sun rose in the distance."
"You see lines of smoke from the goblin camp, and hear their warchants on the wind during the night."
That's a lot more tension-building and indicative of a "tense calm before the storm" than saying:
"Nothing happens on day 2. What do you do?"
If all the above still fails to help them make good decisions, run a megadungeon and populate it with whatever comes up when you google "puzzles for toddlers."
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2018-11-07, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
- Location
- Inner Palace, Holy Terra
- Gender
Re: Plan vs Improv
I have my enemies written out, and I know what their objectives and methodologies are.
That way, I can determine what the enemies should do in reaction to the players, or what advances they should make if the player do nothing.
However, that doesn't seem to be the problem:
The problem seems to be pacing and information.
First off, I am inferring, based on the players actions, that they organized their defenses and then waited. More specifically, they waited one day too long and nothing happened. If nothing is happening and there's no signalling that the battle is coming, you assume that you should be doing something, or you do something because you're bored of waiting. If you don't want to disrupt the timeline, an entirely viable course of action is, one the players have organized their defense, to say "after several days of tense waiting, your scouts report the Goblin army moving over the fields and into range. *being siege*"
Second, it seems that information was lacking. Given their actions, I'm an inferring that they were given no real intelligence on the enemy force's actions, position, and capability. If you wait around and nothing happens, that telegraphs to the players that waiting around is the wrong course of action. While they're waiting, how long they need to wait at the very least should be telegraphed. Smoke on the horizon, refugees from previous battles, scouts reporting on enemy movement, etc. are all good indicators to the party that they're doing the right thing, and provide information to allow them to make informed offensive decisions.
To the party, it sounds like they left the railroad and got smacked for it, which is doubly frustrating because they couldn't see where the railroad went so they didn't even intend to leave it. "Bad things happened because we didn't do what the GM wanted, but the GM didn't tell us what she wanted."
Improvisation definitely would have helped, and presented many opportunities for a fun game here.
For example, if the party ventures north, they can encounter a group of goblins trying to encircle their position and cut their road to resupply in advance of the siege. Or they find that the goblin army bypassed their prepared strongpoint, and that they're now surrounded and under siege.
Alternatively, they return, and find their town under siege. The defenses they prepared held, but only barely, and now the goblins are preparing for the second assault, and they arrived just in time to attack from the rear, or bolster the failing defense.
It may be useful to listen to your players conversations. If they think the enemy's done something [IE: is trying to outflank them, or has a spy in their midst] and act against it, even if you didn't plan on it, sometimes its useful to make the enemy have done just that. It makes the players feel clever, their efforts not wasted, and may lead to an exciting encounter.Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2018-11-07 at 03:00 PM.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
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2018-11-08, 06:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
Re: Plan vs Improv
To reiterate what a lot have already said this isnt about improve v planning its about handling of information. I cant see anything wrong with what the OP has done, and with experienced players this most likely would have gone differently.
I would change the entire starting concept for new players to try to help them understand what they can do and what is being asked of them .
As you walk into the main room of the town call you see Durus bend over a table the mayors chain hangs loosely around his neck banging against the table. On the table is a map of DayDale (Player handout 1) as well as several wooden figures representing the townsfolk or goblin units. Durus mumbles to himself as his checks against a list of names (player handout 2) and moves figures around the map. As he hears you approach he looks up. You have never seen your old friend look more tired.
He smiles in relief as he sees you Thank the gods you have come; I need your help. The sheriff is off in the war with the main force of our militia. The true Mayor is off with them and the head priest. We are all that is left He pauses looking at your faces I should explain a goblin war band is headed our way. I dont know how long before they get here but I do know it will be soon. Durus looks towards the fighterist character You were always more gifted than me with this kind of thing. I need all your help, I havent a clue where to even start .
The players have a nice map of the town.
The players have a simple list of NPCs in the city with some notes by Durus with his thoughts (as a way to give hints)
2 Capenters Could possibly get barriers build. Funnel goblins into kill areas.
2 game wardens Great with bow, can use as scouts? Should I risk losing them?
1 Blacksmith currently under a sleeping curse (needs potion from witch of the woods) Do I send a scout to get this, or two. What happens if I lose them ?
3 Merchants Need to check if they have anything to help.
20 people capable of fighting Only improvised weapons ?? Where can I get more ?
Lay Preist - trained in healing cant cast spells.
Etc etc
Hopefully Durus will be a help to the characters. He cares about the town and wants to save it, he is in over his head and needs help. He will do as the PCs say and help them arrange defenses. Talk over plans and provide a way for the GM to ask questions of the PCs.SpoilerMilo - I know what you are thinking Ork, has he fired 5 shots or 6, well as this is a wand of scorching ray, the most powerful second level wand in the world. What you have to ask your self is "Do I feel Lucky", well do you, Punk.
Galkin - Erm Milo, wands have 50 charges not 6.
Milo - NEATO !!
BLAST
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2018-11-08, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: Plan vs Improv
@Cluedrew - Thanks! In short, I was combining trying to create a nomenclature and give advice. I think your comments helped me see where I was going. Whether this has any further value or not depends largely on where the OP goes from here.
Spoiler: Spoiled for LengthGood call. At the time, I wasn't sure where I was going. I think that it felt to me like there was some confusion regarding what "planned vs improv" meant, because different people were hitting it at different layers maybe? Really, I think my later post told the OP what they most needed to hear, so hashing out the "layers" idea will probably either be academic, or maybe an aid to further communication.
So, I don't generally like to GM. When I do GM, I hate looking at an encounter, and knowing exactly what will happen. I prefer to generally have a guess that maybe the PCs will do one of 4-10 different things, and sometime be wrong. My favorite moments are the "stump the GM" moments, where I have to stop and figure out how to deal with the players' plans. So, while there's this gear grinding and smell of smoke when players do something completely outside anything I've planned, "unplanned responses", and the subsequent improv I have to do after that, are something I enjoy.
On a related note, this is why my least favorite PC in combat (from a great player) was a grapple monk, who I knew, every combat, exactly what he would do. Out of combat, however, he had a unique perspective, that often stumped the NPCs, so it kinda made up for it.
Anyway, that's one reason why I have "planned events" and "planned responses" separated out - because of the value of planned vs unplanned vs stump the GM responses, to me.
But perhaps there's little difference between the "this is what would happen if the PC's didn't exist"-style of Planned Event, where you adjust what actually happens based on how the PCs manipulate the world, and how much you plan for the PCs responses. Two sides of the same coin, perhaps?
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Planned facts - I generally discuss as though I'm a huge fan of never changing your planned facts. The reason for this is, telling a twisted web of lies, and getting them all consistent, is hard. Most people, most GMs lack the appropriate skills. It's oh so much easier to just tell the truth. And, if it's easier, it eats less of the GM's precious headspace. So don't tell lies. Just present the world as it is.
Now, that having been said, sometimes, the players think of something that the GM didn't, and the GM decides, huh, yeah, I should retroactively add that in.
So perhaps the GM just had 2 groups of goblins - the ones in the ruins, and the worg riders 3 days out. But then the PCs start talking about goblin scouts. It is, IMO, fine (for most GMs, at least) to say, huh, you know, it would be reasonable for the goblins in the ruins to send out scouts, and it doesn't contradict anything I've said, so, sure, I'll add some scouts in because it enhances the believeability of the world. OTOH, it's not OK if they do it because it helps/hurts the PCs. As long as their motives are pure (ie, pure Simulationist), it's fine.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Oh, right, relevant to this thread - yes, the GM/OP could have just randomly changed the facts of the game, like the players apparently wanted. Yes, that would have resulted in them engaging "the game". But I think Koo said it best (and I'll paraphrase, perhaps poorly, here) - give them a game, not the game (I hope that's true to Koo's intent).
So, um, I think that, like me, the GM/OP wants the game to stay true at this layer, and I think my point is that one can absolutely run a successful game while keeping facts Planned. However, to do so, one may need to improv at other layers if the players behave in ways that you did not expect.
Which is not entirely unlike what I eventually said. However, I think that someone more coherent than me could have used the layers concept to explain that much more clearly and concisely than this rambling reply.
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Planned Information is the layer where the Rule of Three (did someone rename that?) comes up. That is, if you're going to plan how to give players information, the "best practices" way is to plan three sources for any given bit of information, and three bits of information that lead to any desired action/conclusion. I'm not saying this well.
Anyway, point is (well, relevant to this thread, at least), that the OP only planned one style of information, as evidenced by reading between the lines of these excerpts: "but the players never even looked", "But a big part of the problem was the players did not want to explore the town or talk to any NPC."
Some of this information could easily still have been imparted to even the most antisocial of characters - from knowledge they had before the start of the session (like, how Townsville and Thorpville and Villeville a) had all been sacked by goblins, and b) were all to the South, or a map of the area, that includes both the town and the ruins (and as much other "red herring" information as appropriate for your style)), or from overhearing NPCs talking to one another ("I hear that the goblins have wolves with them, but I've not seen or heard anything with 4 legs around here", or even, "I can smell the goblins from here - why haven't they attacked yet?"), even if the PCs are somehow so scary that the NPCs don't approach them directly.
This is where I advise GMs who care about the adventure (ie, unlike me or Koo) to Improvise their delivery - to find a way to make sure that the required information (or, at the very least, hints that the information is out there, and that maybe the PCs should look for it) makes it to the PCs, no matter what they do.
Yeah, I think you've hit on what my main point would be, if what I wrote were taken as having a point (since it could also be taken as a guide to communication about this issue - my "layer" discussion was, I suppose, hitting this discussion at several layers). That bolded bit is, I believe, quite related, and is, itself, looking at the issue at a different layer than my "layers" explanation. So, you know, since yours is more concise, if it gets people to the same place, use that.
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2018-11-11, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Plan vs Improv
As soon as the DM asks a question to a player like "Are you sure you want to do that?", it's a huge red flag to the player that they should not do it. If a player is doing something within the rules and fine, the DM has no questions. But anything else, like crazy stuff, and the DM asks a lot of questions.
I think that should work both ways, don't just put it all on the DM.
Update Game two went much better. I was ready to go with the idea of hunting down the goblin raiders, but all the players just wanted to do an Do Over. I'm not a fan of that, but it's what the players wanted.
So same adventure. I did not even change the three days before the goblin attack...but, of course, the players did not know that. The players were much more open to talking to the NPCs and trying to learn more about the town and area. They fortified the town a bit, but never considered the idea of just sitting their and waiting for the goblins to attack. They found the spy and the advanced raiders, and when right for the goblin army. They moved around in circles using gurella(sp?) warfare against the larger force. We left off where they had learned of the worg riders, and decided to go intercept them.
I'm not really sure what changed. The only thing I did a bit differently was to have NPC just say stuff without being asked directly.
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2018-11-11, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- New Zealand
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Re: Plan vs Improv
Bingo. It might not feel like much to a DM, but there is a huge difference between being dumped in a city as a player and told go without much to actually go on, and being dumped in a city where you meet an NPC who can tell you what's going on and give their own thoughts and opinions about how the party could achieve their goal.
Thank you to Honest Tiefling for my awesome avatar!
Spoiler: Astofel's Simple Rules for a Happy Life
1. Always stop to pet a cat
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3. Always take the opportunity to make a dumb joke
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2018-11-12, 01:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
Re: Plan vs Improv
You mean that their childhood friends, people theyve known all their lives and are now trusting everything they have to the party have finally decided to speak up?
The party have lived all their lives in Daydale. They would know when smoke from cooking fires is coming from the wrong direction. They would notice birds and animals being flushed out by activity. They would know that person [X] is completely untrustworthy. They would think it strange no one has come down the path from [next village] for 2 days.
What youve done is give them the information that would have been available to them in a realistic manner. Maybe if they were an unknown bunch of dangerous strangers the townsfolk could have been shy, but this party are people the townsfolk can and should be talking to.
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2018-11-12, 03:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Norway
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Re: Plan vs Improv
It sounds to me like your players also spent the time in between sessions reflecting on what they did wrong as well and decided to approach the game slightly differently.
And yes, having the NPC's be a bit more proactive does help the players out a lot, it's the difference between navigating the sea with no cloud cover and having the stars to navigate by. If the NPC's aren't taking initative, it's a clouded sky, but by having them approach the players, tiny gaps in the cloud cover can be spotted and the more experienced they are at navigating, the faster they'll be able to steer accordingly. Just be aware you don't need to be a clear sky, most players still appreciate some clouds for the challenge (also prevents the game from feeling like it is on rails)
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2018-11-12, 03:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2017
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2018-11-12, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Plan vs Improv
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2018-11-12, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2018
Re: Plan vs Improv
There's other questions that you can ask besides "Are you sure you want to do that?" Things like "Why are you doing this?" or "What's the logic behind that action?" tend to communicate that you're not on the same page rather than they are about to do something they shouldn't. Even "Are you aware of this?" doesn't immediately tell the players that you want them to do something different (unless you always use it to direct them to one clear, specific action).
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2018-11-12, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Plan vs Improv
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2018-11-12, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
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2018-11-13, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Plan vs Improv
My apologies if you think I was implying otherwise. The response you quoted was a direct answer to the question "am I wrong for not asking questions?"
It's just a fact of the hobby that responsibility for making a functional game rests on the DM. The posters above me have given you some great suggestions of questions you absolutely must be asking.
My only addition would be a slight variation on MrSandman's suggestion of "What are you trying to do?"
If your players aren't taking initiative, you should outline their stated goals again and ask "What can your character do to achieve X?" Or "What are you gonna do to achieve X?"
If you've outlined goals adequately by bringing the world to life, this is not a leading question- It's the Socratic Method of D&D where you're prompting actions out of your players.Back in my day we used all of our spells before the fight, and it was just a matter of time before the DM realized his encounter was over.
And we walked to our dungeons uphill through the snow, both ways.
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2018-11-13, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
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- The Frozen North
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Re: Plan vs Improv
This is probably one of the best advices.
I usually populate the world with NPC's with an agenda and their plots don't revolve around the PC's unless the PC's choose to get involved.
If the PC's want to ignore evertything and tell me they want to go dungeon crawling then that's what happens.
But in case of the OP this may be about presentation or giving the PC's enough information. In either case heading out for days in one direction was monumentally stupid on the PC's part if they wanted to protect the town. Maybe they just have to be weaned off their computer game expectations that everything exists in stasis while they are gone.Optimizing vs Roleplay
If the worlds greatest optimizer makes a character and hands it to the worlds greatest roleplayer who roleplays the character. What will happen? Will the Universe implode?
Roleplaying vs Fun
If roleplaying is no fun then stop doing it. Unless of course you are roleplaying at gunpoint then you should roleplay like your life depended on it.
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2018-11-13, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
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- Mid-Rohan
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Re: Plan vs Improv
That seems unfair. Based on the OP, it seems more like they expected Quantum Adventure, where something would happen because they went that way.
They clearly demonstrated that they were uncomfortable being gone so long, thus proving they were not expecting the town to be static while they were gone.
Rather, it seems obvious they interpreted the, "two days pass uneventfully" as a prompt to be more proactive, thus making them feel yanked around when they only had to wait one more day.
For a mindset that expects the DM to bring the adventure to the heroes, hearing that nothing is happening HERE feels like a suggestion to go elsewhere. Lacking any other input, they picked a direction.
The fault can't be entirely theirs.
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2018-11-13, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Plan vs Improv
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.