[3.5] Wizard/Incantatrix/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil optimization

[Loki Laufeyson]

Hi guys,

I'm quite new in 3.5, and i've been looking for some info.

Can you help me with the optimization of a 12 lvl wizard( starting the campain at lvl 12, will get to 18-20ish), mainly Incantatrix and IotSV as flavor.

I've stumbled across several builds, but they don't help me that much. What race,class progression, feats and templates do you suggest for this?

[Lateral]

You're already done.

...No, not really, but that's one of the most powerful Wizard class combos you can have (barring really obscure stuff, I think the best is Wizard/Incantatrix/War Weaver). Your race can be pretty much anything, but the best options are probably Grey Elf for the INT and DEX bonuses (although the CON bonuses are irritating) and Human for the bonus feat. I'd steer clear of templates, since you'll want to avoid LA like the plague. As for feats, you'll get a lot of mileage out of metamagic because you're an Incantatrix; Persistent Spell (make a touch or fixed-range spell last 24 hours; +6 levels, requires Extend Spell) is very nice if you're negating the cost with Incantatrix, and Fell Drain (creatures dealt damage by the spell gain 1 negative level, +2 levels) will turn Magic Missiles into Enervation on steroids. (Well, not exactly- by RAW, it only applies to each creature once, so if you target 5 guys they all get negative levels but if you target one he still only gets one negative level.)

[Yuukale]

I take it that you already know the Wizard handbooks, right?

so... first, there is this: Incantatrix Handbook

and this: Metamagic Handbook

Race: Sun Elf (Forgotten Realms) - Gray Elf (Monsters Handbook I) - Fire Elf (Unearthed Arcana IIRC) or anything with Int +2

Template: can't help here, I'm not knowledgeable in this area.

Build: I think the staple is: Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/IotSV7/x5

these last 5 may be whatever fancy you:
From archmage (3 is about fine but all 5 levels are not bad)
To Cleric 1 and Dweomerkeeper 4 (yet more cheese)
or Incantatrix 8 cuz it's awesome
or all the metamagics you can eat: olin gisir 1, loremaster 1, incantatrix 4, archmage 1 (sculpt spell feature)...

I find it really hard to tell what's cheesiest from these options.

As for the feats you'll take, I'd say: metamagic all the way according to your playstyle. =)

[Loki Laufeyson]

The IotSV requires 12 ranks in Spellcraft,/Knowledge(arcana). Doesn't that mean that i have to take its first level when i'm level 10?

Edit 1: On an unrelated note, one guide for the Incantatrix had a list of boosts for my Spellcraft, and it showed the Tome of Ancient Lore. Does it give +5 to Spellcraft?


Furthermore, is this artifact worth the feat True believer so that i can use it?

What other magical items do you recommend? Boccob's blessed book, +6 Int items, etc...

Edit 2: Can I persist the Veils? Is there anyway to do that?

[Lostbutseeking]

Metamagic effect ( incantatrix 3 ) can be used to persist the veils yes.

[Tyndmyr]

I've played this char before. It's pretty hard to jack up.

Step 1: Get persist. You need extend to do so. These are not hard.

Step 2: Learn as many spells as you can from your soon-to-be-banned school before you go incantatrix.

Step 3: Pick lots of fun buffs to extend and/or persist. Note that persist & extend boosts your spell duration to two days, and thus, can be a better use of limited spell slots.

Step 4: Don't forget the other fun long duration buffs. I like the Heart of X spells, myself. Already a day length in duration, so no need to persist, but extending is fine.

Step 5: Make nice with the rest of the party. That divine caster? Yeah, have him cast a few of his nicer buffs on you that aren't on your list. Persist them. In return, persist a few spells on him. Even the more mundane party members will prove to be much more useful tools with a couple of carefully tailored buffs.

Step 6: Don't forget to save a few spell slots for actual combat. With moderate spellcraft/int optimization, it's easy to get carried away on buffs.

[2xMachina]

The IotSV requires 12 ranks in Spellcraft,/Knowledge(arcana). Doesn't that mean that i have to take its first level when i'm level 10?

Yes, you need 9 previous lvls before taking IotSV (barring some HD changing cheese). I think it's pretty hard to fit all 10 lvls of Incantatrix and 7 lvls of IotSV. You need 3 lvls in Wiz, max, and I think Incantatrix is a 6th lvl PrC

[Tyndmyr]

Yes, you need 9 previous lvls before taking IotSV (barring some HD changing cheese). I think it's pretty hard to fit all 10 lvls of Incantatrix and 7 lvls of IotSV. You need 3 lvls in Wiz, max, and I think Incantatrix is a 6th lvl PrC

Incantatrix is a ten level PrC. That said, level 4 is a reasonable exit point from it...though going back to it after some or all IoTSV is not a bad plan at all.

[Lateral]

Incantatrix is a ten level PrC. That said, level 4 is a reasonable exit point from it...though going back to it after some or all IoTSV is not a bad plan at all.

I think he meant that it's one you can't enter until 6th level.

[2xMachina]

Incantatrix is a ten level PrC. That said, level 4 is a reasonable exit point from it...though going back to it after some or all IoTSV is not a bad plan at all.

I meant 6th lvl, by being accessible at lvl 6 minimum (barring HD manipulation cheese to get skills over the HD+3 cap)

Most I could see is: Wiz5/Incantatrix4/IotSV7/Incantatrix4

Or maybe get Master Spec. instead of Wiz4&5

EDIT: Swordsaged

I think he meant that it's one you can't enter until 6th level.

I thought the req was 8 ranks in 1 skill (forgot which)? 5th lvl gets you 8 ranks, you qualify on 6th HD.

[Ducklord]

You're new to 3.5, but you would already like to play the most complex class it can offer with the best prcs that go with it? Am I the only one here that finds this strange?

[Tyndmyr]

I think he meant that it's one you can't enter until 6th level.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, you can enter it on your sixth level.

I would agree that this is a fairly complex set of options, and is kind of a lot for a fairly new player. I'd stick with a more normal wizard or a sorc, and perhaps dabble lightly in metamagic for a somewhat less crazy build. Perhaps just one of those PrCs instead.

[2xMachina]

Personally, I tried Wiz before, and even Spells known list is a damn pain to create (what's with the buying scrolls and learning them, so you know a lot of spells, but not all of them, so you end up listing quite a lot of spells). Then there's the daily spells selection.

[Tvtyrant]

You're new to 3.5, but you would already like to play the most complex class it can offer with the best prcs that go with it? Am I the only one here that finds this strange?

The first thing I ever wanted to play was a Druid, and once I found out about the Planar Shepard I wanted to multiclass into it. I don't think it is that abnormal.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I've played several characters before, but they were not too complex - a Sorcerer and a Paladin. I think of myself as new, because the 2 classes i played were not hard to play - blast blast blast or smite teh evil!

I dont have a problem with a complex set of prestige classes, i'd enjoy it. My first love was Exalted, and there things aren't easy :P

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Gray Elf or Fire Elf, Martial Wizard (Conjurer) 3/ Master Specialist 2/ Incantatrix 5/ IotSV 2 starting out. Max IotSV and then get more Incantatrix. If the game goes epic you just want to take Epic Incantatrix, Google can track it down for you.

Prohibited schools are Enchantment, Evocation, and Necromancy. I wouldn't use the Focused Specialist variant (CM) as you don't really want a fourth prohibited school. Use the Abrupt Jaunt ACF (PH2) and the Elf Wizard 3 racial substitution level (RotW). Subtract 3,000 gp from your starting funds and include in your backstory that you were trapped in the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel for long enough to gain Iron Will without spending a feat on it. Take two flaws: Weak-Willed and Noncombatant. Take two traits: Passionate and Slow.

Feats should be Improved Initiative (Wizard 1 bonus), Spell Focus: Conjuration (1), Extend Spell (flaw), Spell Focus: Abjuration (flaw), Item Familiar (3), Skill Focus: Spellcraft (Master Specialist 1 bonus), Persistent Spell (Incantatrix 1 bonus), Obtain Familiar (CA, 6), Fell Drain Spell (LM, Incantatrix 4 bonus), Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration (9), and Extraordinary Spell Aim (CV, 12). Future feats should include Quicken Spell and maybe Chain Spell (CA).

Your familiar via Obtain Familiar is a Hummingbird, it uses the stats fora Thrush in the DMG and it gives a +4 bonus to Initiative, it's detailed in Dragon magazine 323. Your Elf Wizard 3 substitution level doubles that bonus, so it will give you +8 initiative instead.

You should start out Middle Age, put all three of your level up points into Int, and start with Int 18. Str, Wis, and Cha are your dump stats, you want a decent Dex and as high a Con score as possible.

Your Item Familiar should start as a Circlet of Intellect +2, for which you pay the full price of 4,000 gp. You can then upgrade it to be a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) with a +6 Enhancement bonus to Intelligence, for a cost of 23,500 gp and 1,880 XP. Keep in mind that the Item Familiar gives you a 10% bonus to XP, so you can use Permanency on Arcane Sight, Tongues, See Invisibility, and Read Magic and still start with more XP than the rest of your party. You should always invest enough skill points into your Item Familiar for it to grant a bonus to Spellcraft equal to your max ranks, which considering your Int 30, +3 for Skill Focus and a +2 Synergy bonus, you'll be able to use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your current highest level spells by taking ten on the check at any given level. You should wear a scarf or bandanna on your head over your circlet, so opponents will have neither line of sight nor line of effect and cannot sunder, disarm, or slight of hand it. An item familiar is an intelligent item, which is considered a construct, and constructs remain functional in antimagic and dead magic areas and cannot be dispelled or disjoined like normal magic items, so there should be almost no risk of it getting lost or destroyed.

You can use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your buffs. Some may say that Cooperative Metamagic can't be used on your own spells due to the types of actions it takes, but action types only exist in combat during initiative so as long as you're not in combat you can take as long as you want doing it and it works fine. I'm sure there's a complete list of persistable buffs online, but a few must-have choices are as follows: Swift Expeditious Retreat, Shield, Swift Fly, Displacement, Magic Circle against Evil, Ray Deflection, Greater Invisibility, and Dragonsight. You should also include Antimagic Field among your persistent spells, and use Extraordinary Spell Aim to exclude yourself and your party members and familiar/companions from its effect. Per Rules Compendium an AMF does not block line of effect for spells or magic effects, so everyone can still be hit by spells from outside the AMF as though it wasn't there. However, any opponents within 10 ft. of you won't be able to cast or use supernatural or spell-like abilities, and they won't have any spell buffs or magic items active, so it should be well worth it. Other all-day buffs should include Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire (CM), Greater/Superior Resistance depending on what level spell slot you want to spend, Greater Mage Armor or even Greater Luminous Armor (BoED) if you're good-aligned, Greater Magic Weapon on your party members' weapons, etc. Note that you can use a (Lesser) Metamagic Rod of Extend on most of those, so the hour/level buffs last 24 hours and the 24 hour buffs can be continually active on two characters for one spell slot each day. Later on Mind Blank is absolutely necessary. You can also use Greater Shadow Evocation to mimic Contingency and have something like Ironguard on it.

Do the Shrink Item Tin Foil Hat trick to avoid opponents' AMFs. The Google should help you figure that one out.

Other items should definitely include a Necklace of Adaptation, preferably with an Enhancement bonus to Constitution added on, a Ring of Enduring Arcana (CM), a Ring of Freedom of Movement, a Third Eye: Clarity (MIC), and metamagic rods.

After you've buffed yourself each day, and shared all those buffs with your hummingbird familiar, you should use your remaining uses of Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic on as many Fell Drain Cloud of Knives (PH2) spells as possible, and share each of those with your familiar as well. Every round, you and your familiar will each be able to fire that many daggers without any effort at all, and each dagger that damages an opponent will deal a negative level. Note that due to your ESA AMF your equipment and spells will be excluded from the area of the AMF. Also keep in mind that opponents standing in the AMF will have their equipment rendered nonmagical, so even when their weapons are striking you they won't be magical weapons at the time and something like Ironguard or Starmantle (BoED) should protect you.

Use Spellcraft every time an opponent casts a spell, it doesn't take any action to do and you can look up what the spell does before you decide what to react with, because that's knowledge your character will have. Your Ray Deflection spell will automatically block any ranged touch attacks, your Greater Invisibility should prevent you from being targeted by most attacks and spells, your Displacement will help you avoid attacks from opponents who can see invis, you can fly all day long, summoned creatures and nongood extraplanar creatures will be kept at bay by your Magic Circle, and your IotSV Veils can be used to stop anything else that gets thrown at you. Against opponents who have obvious magical abilities (Beholders, Dragons, anyone with a spell component pouch or divine focus) you should move in to get them in your AMF as quickly as possible, and probably use a spell like Web or Black Tentacles to trap them in it while your daggers obliterate them. Don't forget you can use the Circlet of Rapid Casting for a swift-action Web or Glitterdust when necessary.

Check out a few Batman Wizard guides, and good luck!

[VKurgan]

You can use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your buffs. Some may say that Cooperative Metamagic can't be used on your own spells due to the types of actions it takes, but action types only exist in combat during initiative so as long as you're not in combat you can take as long as you want doing it and it works fine.

I love the layout you have done here and it has inspired me to play an Incatatar. I just don't understand one point here. I don't see how you can take 'extra time' to do two things at once. Any action spoils the casting of a spell an any action spoils a readied action so I don't get it. I'd like to see how to do it. I just don't. Maybe as a Vestigial Twin? I am making my first Incantatar and would love to understand how I could sell this to my GM. He already shot down blood traits


The wording in the book specifically says "Using this ability is
a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity, just like
casting a spell, though the incantatrix can use the Concentration
skill with this ability as though she were casting defensively. The
incantatrix must ready an action to use cooperative metamagic
when her ally begins casting and must be adjacent to the caster."

[Walkwalk]

You're using the Incantatrix and IotSV classes? And you want to be optimised further? Really?

Dear god. Pretty much all of the DM's I know ban those classes flat out, along with Planar Shepherds, Halruuan Elders and Dweomerkeepers. I had to beg for IotSV levels in my latest game, and even then I had to jump through story hoops to get them.

You need nothing else.

[dhusarra]

Gray Elf or Fire Elf, Martial Wizard (Conjurer) 3/ Master Specialist 2/ Incantatrix 5/ IotSV 2 starting out. Max IotSV and then get more Incantatrix. If the game goes epic you just want to take Epic Incantatrix, Google can track it down for you.

Prohibited schools are Enchantment, Evocation, and Necromancy. I wouldn't use the Focused Specialist variant (CM) as you don't really want a fourth prohibited school. Use the Abrupt Jaunt ACF (PH2) and the Elf Wizard 3 racial substitution level (RotW). Subtract 3,000 gp from your starting funds and include in your backstory that you were trapped in the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel for long enough to gain Iron Will without spending a feat on it. Take two flaws: Weak-Willed and Noncombatant. Take two traits: Passionate and Slow.

Feats should be Improved Initiative (Wizard 1 bonus), Spell Focus: Conjuration (1), Extend Spell (flaw), Spell Focus: Abjuration (flaw), Item Familiar (3), Skill Focus: Spellcraft (Master Specialist 1 bonus), Persistent Spell (Incantatrix 1 bonus), Obtain Familiar (CA, 6), Fell Drain Spell (LM, Incantatrix 4 bonus), Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration (9), and Extraordinary Spell Aim (CV, 12). Future feats should include Quicken Spell and maybe Chain Spell (CA).

Your familiar via Obtain Familiar is a Hummingbird, it uses the stats fora Thrush in the DMG and it gives a +4 bonus to Initiative, it's detailed in Dragon magazine 323. Your Elf Wizard 3 substitution level doubles that bonus, so it will give you +8 initiative instead.

You should start out Middle Age, put all three of your level up points into Int, and start with Int 18. Str, Wis, and Cha are your dump stats, you want a decent Dex and as high a Con score as possible.

Your Item Familiar should start as a Circlet of Intellect +2, for which you pay the full price of 4,000 gp. You can then upgrade it to be a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) with a +6 Enhancement bonus to Intelligence, for a cost of 23,500 gp and 1,880 XP. Keep in mind that the Item Familiar gives you a 10% bonus to XP, so you can use Permanency on Arcane Sight, Tongues, See Invisibility, and Read Magic and still start with more XP than the rest of your party. You should always invest enough skill points into your Item Familiar for it to grant a bonus to Spellcraft equal to your max ranks, which considering your Int 30, +3 for Skill Focus and a +2 Synergy bonus, you'll be able to use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your current highest level spells by taking ten on the check at any given level. You should wear a scarf or bandanna on your head over your circlet, so opponents will have neither line of sight nor line of effect and cannot sunder, disarm, or slight of hand it. An item familiar is an intelligent item, which is considered a construct, and constructs remain functional in antimagic and dead magic areas and cannot be dispelled or disjoined like normal magic items, so there should be almost no risk of it getting lost or destroyed.

You can use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your buffs. Some may say that Cooperative Metamagic can't be used on your own spells due to the types of actions it takes, but action types only exist in combat during initiative so as long as you're not in combat you can take as long as you want doing it and it works fine. I'm sure there's a complete list of persistable buffs online, but a few must-have choices are as follows: Swift Expeditious Retreat, Shield, Swift Fly, Displacement, Magic Circle against Evil, Ray Deflection, Greater Invisibility, and Dragonsight. You should also include Antimagic Field among your persistent spells, and use Extraordinary Spell Aim to exclude yourself and your party members and familiar/companions from its effect. Per Rules Compendium an AMF does not block line of effect for spells or magic effects, so everyone can still be hit by spells from outside the AMF as though it wasn't there. However, any opponents within 10 ft. of you won't be able to cast or use supernatural or spell-like abilities, and they won't have any spell buffs or magic items active, so it should be well worth it. Other all-day buffs should include Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire (CM), Greater/Superior Resistance depending on what level spell slot you want to spend, Greater Mage Armor or even Greater Luminous Armor (BoED) if you're good-aligned, Greater Magic Weapon on your party members' weapons, etc. Note that you can use a (Lesser) Metamagic Rod of Extend on most of those, so the hour/level buffs last 24 hours and the 24 hour buffs can be continually active on two characters for one spell slot each day. Later on Mind Blank is absolutely necessary. You can also use Greater Shadow Evocation to mimic Contingency and have something like Ironguard on it.

Do the Shrink Item Tin Foil Hat trick to avoid opponents' AMFs. The Google should help you figure that one out.

Other items should definitely include a Necklace of Adaptation, preferably with an Enhancement bonus to Constitution added on, a Ring of Enduring Arcana (CM), a Ring of Freedom of Movement, a Third Eye: Clarity (MIC), and metamagic rods.

After you've buffed yourself each day, and shared all those buffs with your hummingbird familiar, you should use your remaining uses of Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic on as many Fell Drain Cloud of Knives (PH2) spells as possible, and share each of those with your familiar as well. Every round, you and your familiar will each be able to fire that many daggers without any effort at all, and each dagger that damages an opponent will deal a negative level. Note that due to your ESA AMF your equipment and spells will be excluded from the area of the AMF. Also keep in mind that opponents standing in the AMF will have their equipment rendered nonmagical, so even when their weapons are striking you they won't be magical weapons at the time and something like Ironguard or Starmantle (BoED) should protect you.

Use Spellcraft every time an opponent casts a spell, it doesn't take any action to do and you can look up what the spell does before you decide what to react with, because that's knowledge your character will have. Your Ray Deflection spell will automatically block any ranged touch attacks, your Greater Invisibility should prevent you from being targeted by most attacks and spells, your Displacement will help you avoid attacks from opponents who can see invis, you can fly all day long, summoned creatures and nongood extraplanar creatures will be kept at bay by your Magic Circle, and your IotSV Veils can be used to stop anything else that gets thrown at you. Against opponents who have obvious magical abilities (Beholders, Dragons, anyone with a spell component pouch or divine focus) you should move in to get them in your AMF as quickly as possible, and probably use a spell like Web or Black Tentacles to trap them in it while your daggers obliterate them. Don't forget you can use the Circlet of Rapid Casting for a swift-action Web or Glitterdust when necessary.

Check out a few Batman Wizard guides, and good luck!

For Elf Wizard 3 racial substitution level (RotW) says that skill checks, saves or hp can be double.Initiative its not fall in these catecories :). So i think its better for not take the substitution and maybe its better to lose the hummingbird and take abjurer form the beggining.Except if you want the bonus spells to be summoning :)

[herrhauptmann]

For Elf Wizard 3 racial substitution level (RotW) says that skill checks, saves or hp can be double.Initiative its not fall in these catecories :). So i think its better for not take the substitution and maybe its better to lose the hummingbird and take abjurer form the beggining.Except if you want the bonus spells to be summoning :)

Thank you for dragging up an incredible response by Biffoniacus, but thread necro is bad.

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Closed for thread necromancy.