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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    I'm on the edge of my seat. Will Belkar die here? Will Durkon die here? Will both be turned? Will Malack die before seeing Tarquin again? Where are Roy and Haley? Where is V? Will the team have any resources left at all when this is through, and what will happen when Team Evil shows up?

    How anyone could be bored right now is beyond me. There's a Gate literally around the corner, and the only folks strong enough to keep the bad guys from taking it - minus whatever epic defenses the paranoid fool Girard cooked up - are busy burning up all their resources against each other. It's high times
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    I disagree both with his opinion and in principle.

    I, for one, love the Tarquin and co. stuff. I'm hoping against hope that more of his friends show up soon (especially the catfolk chick, but knowing Giant she may end up doing something that makes the "light show" look like a sunday regatta).

    But even if I did agree with his point...

    There was no reason to post this here, by his own admission. And even if he had a reason, I would likely disagree with it, because it seems to amount to "I love the comic but your writing sucks," which is really a rude way of putting anything.
    I do, however, wonder what the poor strawman ever did to you. - Kish

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    I disagree with most of what you've said, Winter, but I'm going to focus on two specific areas because I think they're the most fruitful for discussion (especially the second one). So:


    Nale:

    I actually think introducing Tarquin has breathed new life into Nale. A while back, someone suggested that many of Nale's traits make a lot more sense in light of being raised by a man like Tarquin. Basically, the idea was that Nale spent most of his life trying to earn the approval of/impress/outthink his father, who was always not just one step ahead of him, but playing the game on a whole different scale. So you get someone who, say, starts as a fighter (like Dad?), and when he's clearly unable to match his Dad's level of thinking, tries to supplement his abilities with more and more varied sources, and comes up with more and more convoluted plans in a vain attempt to do something his father can't anticipate practically as soon as Nale's come up with it. The result is someone whose operating procedure is defined by what looks like being needlessly complicated, because nothing he ever did was ever complicated enough to match wits with his father.

    I find that relationship quite interesting, and find Nale more intriguing as a result, especially now that he's been brought back into direct contact/conflict with his father again. He's even a somewhat more sympathetic character because of it (despite still being despicable overall, of course). From that angle, I'm curious about where Nale's story could go, and hope to see more of his interactions with Tarquin.



    Sense of Drama:
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    And the issue is there's no "drama of the unknown". It's very much known and proven right now that a massive, open rift just above a city does not eat the world. That contradicts everything we are told about the Snarl and we've even seen a reasonable explanation for it: There is no Snarl within the rifts. That is not "the mystery of the unknown", that is opening the wardrobe, switching the light on and showing the kid there's no monsters hidden in it.
    To be honest, I don't really see where you're coming from on this one. Specifically, while it's true that the threat of the Snarl and the rifts (apparently) aren't the same as what we'd been led to believe, that generates more drama of the unknown, not less. Some characters seem to genuinely believe the story we heard in the first place, and a few have started noticing discrepancies between it and what has now been observed. That raises qustions of whether the rifts might represent a different threat altogether, whether some characters have intentionally deceived others (and what their motives might be), whether the nature of the threat could have changed (to something potentially worse?), whether the wrong person finding out the truth could generate an entirely new crisis, and so on. To use your phrase, both we and the characters thought we knew what the stakes are, but now it's clear that even the stakes themselves are uncertain. I find that exciting--and I really don't see how we or the characters involved would be justified in thinking that being less certain of what's going on means there must not be as much at stake. If anything, that just raises the potential for what we don't know to cause huge problems for any number of the competing sides involved in the conflict.

    On a related note:
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter
    Imagine you live in a house that is about to collapse but you do not know that. There is something that is dramatic, but as you do not know it is dramatic, it is not. What matters is your believe what might or could or would happen.
    This seems inconsistent with the rest of what you were saying. The characters are operating under certain beliefs about the rifts, and as you say, that generates drama in the story. The potential to find out they were (perhaps even VERY) wrong about those beliefs just increases the possibility for disaster down the line, and even makes it possible that all of their efforts are actually working against their intended goals! This is true not only of the heroes, but the villains as well--even Redcloak. Keeping all that in mind, I think that your charge of diminshed drama is ill-considered, and that the stakes may well be higher than ever.

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    Last edited by Holy_Knight; 2013-02-28 at 11:55 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    In relation to the "Sense of Drama" part, I think it's also worth noting that not knowing exactly what will happen if Team Evil manages to execute the Plan makes it much more likely that they might actually do it. If we knew for sure that it would be Certain Doom, then there wouldn't be all that much tension about it, since we can be fairly sure OOTS won't ultimately end with the world being destroyed.
    Last edited by ti'esar; 2013-03-01 at 12:42 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    tongue Re: The current main-plot is boring

    I think the OP has a very limited idea of drama. Drama need not mean certain destruction. Mystery is dramatic, and there's plenty of that. Moreover, there is still a very real chance of unmaking existence.

    To start, if all the gates are destroyed in the struggle, the Gods may unmake the world. If he Dark One's plan succeeds, his endgame may well be the unmaking of the world, so that it can be remade with a Goblin voice at the table. If the snarl is released, it may or may not attack creation. If Xykon successfully screws Redcloak (a very real possibility as he's often shown to be smarter than he seems) who knows what will happen. If Tarquin succeeds, he has an arcane and a divine caster as well, and we can only guess at what he'd do if he could control the snarl. And then there's the IFCC...

    Moreover, waiting to find out what MITD is, waiting to learn the true nature of the Snarl, of the Dark One's plan, of the world inside the Snarl, etc., is all very tense and dramatic. What more could you ask for? You want a more simplistic plot?

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Amarsir View Post
    I've always perceived OOTS as being a character-driven story, not a plot-driven one.
    I fully agree and the character-driven part works very well and is highly enjoying. What I find a bit sad is that the "background" story isn't working as well and that is what I wrote about.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Though I don't get how this makes the entire conflict "boring". The seemingly inevitable draw has made me anticipate the conflict will go in the direction of the unexpected, and wildcards will play a key role.
    That is what I meant when I wrote "We have to trust the author it'll speed up again". I'm not thinking that is how "drama" should work. Again, this is totally my perspective and I already got (and knew before posting the first post) that people disagree to that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amarsir View Post
    That reminds me: Tsukiko always struck me as unnecessary.
    This is some derailing, but I find it interesting to talk about it as well. I think Tsukiko had a very important role. First, she was there to reveal "The Plan" to everyone who has not read SoD. It was about time that happened, as it is a pretty big thing.
    Furthermore, and more important, Tsukiko shook up the relationship between Xykon and Redcloak. They were like an old married couple but with Tsukiko Redcloak suddenly had to fear that relationship gets changed as Xykon has now another capable minion - one that he can trust more than Redcloak.
    Due to her being able to cast Redcloak's Half of the ritual (or the entire thing on her own!) was also a massive threat to Redcloak.
    Tsukiko changed how Redcloak and Xykon interact, they broke their decades old trot and I think that is a pretty big thing.

    She also, this is a sideline, served as mean for Redcloak to reveal very clearly what he thinks of undead and Xykon.
    I also found Tsukiko to be an entertaining change in how Team Evil works internally (something that came way too late to the LG in the form of Tarquin/Malack).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    I read through most of the posts here, and I don't really have anything to add to the arguments.
    I want to use this opportunity to add something: If a story "feels" right is a matter of emotion, not only arguments. I tried find what I feel about the main story as reasons. I think I managed to express that accurately. How someone can take that as negativity is easy to see and I think it has to do with a basic tendency of many humans to put people in two groups "You're either with us or against us". If I dare to say something negative (even with a disclaimer that I enjoy the work in general a lot) about OotS, I must clearly be in the "against us"-camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by jere7my View Post
    That sounds odd coming from someone who's clearly a huge Song of Ice and Fire fan. We're five books in to that series, and we still really have no idea what the ultimate stakes are in the conflict between "Ice" and "Fire." [...]
    Awesome point, I hoped someone would bring it up. The difference between this and aSoIaF is that Martin builds up a mystic enemy and we only know it is there but learn more and more per book (and that if you think hard and a lot about it, you're understanding more and more of what it actually is about). We come to conclusions that aspects and parties that come over as "good" (well, likeable) must belong to the party that has so far been shown as the utter evil. We're also understand that some parties that seem unrelated must belong together. We're also learning there are entire new factions out there (that somehow tie into this or that party or are even a third side).
    While we learn, the threat either is known to be "there", yet not where or becomes bigger and bigger as the story progresses.
    This works a bit like the early seasons of the X-Files, which did it very similar.
    OotS is different, I think. In OotS we learned about Xykon, then about the gates, then about the Snarl. It was a clear progression what the "deal" of the world is, the "threat" was out in the open.
    Then it got cut back and not replaced with new information that leaves the threatlevel the same but shifts it into a new perspective or with another escalation. We learned the Snarl and the Rifts weren't the threat we thought they were - and nothing new came out.
    So the Snarl does not eat you through the open rifts? Well... now what? I do not find that interesting or teasing (like the early episodes of the X-Files, Babylon 5, or aSoIaF up until the current book or Harry Potter), I find that boring (which is my basic point).

    After thousands of pages, we don't really know what the main conflict is.
    Yes, I find that to be totally awesome. The level of speculation around that is simply staggering. If I ponder what I could speculate (I love to do that! I can spend hours and a couple beers from 18:00 to 5 am in the morning to speculate about that stuff) in this regard about OotS (What is the Snarl, what information do we have and how can I assemble it into something that makes sense) I cannot think of that much that has any substance. The rug got pulled from below us and beyond "Apparently, something does not add up" there's not really much we can talk about.
    Just see this forum that's full of people who want to speculate. Were are all the massive threads about what the Snarl is? You won't find many that are comparable to the question "What is the MitD" simply because we do not have enough information to work with to do decent speculating.

    Conclusion: If you want to understand what I complain about, compare the awesome "What is the MitD?"-threads with the very slim and thin "What is this actually about (and what is the Snarl)?"-threads. People do not bother enough to make a big, massive collection thread. I think that is pretty telling about the main-plot (which is not that bad as OotS is character-driven, as it was pointed out above).

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy_Knight View Post
    I actually think introducing Tarquin has breathed new life into Nale. A while back, someone suggested that many of Nale's traits make a lot more sense in light of being raised by a man like Tarquin. [...]
    I fully agree and hope that Nale gets his Final Moment very soon while he still stands in this spotlight. ;)

    To be honest, I don't really see where you're coming from on this one. Specifically, while it's true that the threat of the Snarl and the rifts (apparently) aren't the same as what we'd been led to believe, that generates more drama of the unknown, not less.
    I think I addressed this above. If you have further questions/unclear positions, feel free to point them out and I'll try to come up with something more concise.

    Some characters seem to genuinely believe the story we heard in the first place, and a few have started noticing discrepancies between it and what has now been observed.[...]
    I agree, the story works very well for the characters. I have the problem it's not working for me, as I have an outside perspective.
    I find it interesting I seem to be pretty alone with this stance, though. So it cannot be as bad as I thought it was. Which is good, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackRackham View Post
    I think the OP has a very limited idea of drama. Drama need not mean certain destruction. Mystery is dramatic, and there's plenty of that. Moreover, there is still a very real chance of unmaking existence.
    Did I address this in the section above? I'm not saying "Drama" = "Certain Destruction". If you go for the "mystery drama" that is fine. Both can cause drama and both are fine means to achieve this goal. I just think OotS falls in the "Certain destruction" section, but then took that away. As I wrote above I do not think the "Destruction" part got replaced with an equally gripping "Mystery drama". So far, we did get so little mystery and new pieces after the "Destruction" was removed from the equation that I doubt this is what Rich intended.

    To start, if all the gates are destroyed in the struggle, the Gods may unmake the world.
    Actually, I think that is a good point (was this mentioned for the first time, now?)

    If Xykon successfully screws Redcloak (a very real possibility as he's often shown to be smarter than he seems) who knows what will happen.
    We know Xykon still has no clue about what the ritual does. He clearly mistrusts Redcloak, but with Tsukiko taken out, Xykon is still as wise about the Ritual as he was in SoD.

    If Tarquin succeeds, he has an arcane and a divine caster as well, and we can only guess at what he'd do if he could control the snarl.
    We know Tarquin goes there because... well, because. If he plans more I'd be nice if we got hints of that to actually feel suspense. As I said numerous times before, I think it's bad writing if the author demands of us we trust him "it'll somehow get dramatic later when the final piece of info is given". We need crumbs to cling to, then it's dramatic. If we do not even get those crumbs that form into bread (or something else) later, there's nothing to hook speculation, interest or drama to (you might disagree to that).


    What more could you ask for? You want a more simplistic plot?
    If you make a complex plot that is worth to get thought about, I want stuff that are worth to get thought about. That means I want little hints and crumbs once in a while. They can (and must!) be incomplete and/or misleading, that is very fine.
    With the current main-plot, I'm just not seeing it. So in a way, I do not want a more simplistic plot, I want a more complex plot that can afford to throw more crumbs out without revealing itself while staying mysterious and changeable. As I said: So, the rifts are not as big a threat as we thought? So, now what? Wuhh... yes, now what? Ok, I get a cookie and wait until more is revealed.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Winter,

    In reading your responses, I keep coming back to the point that you feel that what we saw through the rift above Azure City means that the Snarl is no longer much of a threat. I feel that this is a hasty assumption.

    You speak of certainties regarding motivations, abilities, intent and capabilities on the part of those seeking whatever lies beyond the Gates. You are mistaken about that.

    Yes, we do have to trust the author to not make the resolution boring. Yes we do have to trust the author to tie it all together.

    You've lost a sense of drama because you are too world-weary, too genre savvy to not know what the author has done and where he is taking the story. But you don't know.

  8. - Top - End - #68

    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Personally the only character I actually dislike in OotS is Therkla.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Recent revelations have indicated that the consequences of the Order's failure will not be, "Xykon's plan goes off without a hitch and he takes over the world as simply as that." But...

    That's not really a change. Until Start of Darkness came out, all we knew was that Xykon had some nefarious plans for a Gate. Start of Darkness gave those of us who read it knowledge of what Redcloak's understanding of "The Plan," which turned out to be the Dark One's plan with nothing directly to do with Xykon, was. I don't know about you, Winter, but I was never inclined to bet a great deal that even Redcloak knew what The Plan truly was. Nor am I inclined, now, to bet a great deal that the Dark One doesn't know what's on the other side of the rifts.

    As far as I can tell, your objection is that the Order is not battling a clearly-defined-to-the-audience threat doing something that will have clearly-defined-to-the-audience consequences if not battled. But it's the way it always was, really: The Order battles Xykon to protect the world from the not-yet-revealed-but-safe-to-assume-it's-bad.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    That is what I meant when I wrote "We have to trust the author it'll speed up again". I'm not thinking that is how "drama" should work. Again, this is totally my perspective and I already got (and knew before posting the first post) that people disagree to that.
    This trust is no different from trusting that when a good author slows down the pace doing character development halfway through a novel, that he'll appropriately speed things up in the coming pages. The only difference is that those pages haven't been completed yet.

    We aren't basing our trust on wishful thinking, but on a solid history of great writing. I would turn around your argument and say: the only reason you're complaining about this is that you think Rich might stupidly keep the pace of the main plot this slow for the rest of the comic, which is blind pessimism rather than rational criticism.

    On a side note, ASoIaF might be a sprawling epic, but over the last couple of books it has sprawled flat on its face, lost all sense of pacing, and thrown in a few too many "evil people having gratuitous deviant sex" (connotations of "it's baaaaad because evil people are doing it") for my liking on top of everything else.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    All I have to say is that I disagree with your points - not specifically because I think they're wrong, just because I'm looking at the story from a different perspective. You're looking for drama and action - all I see is a mystery. Everything is a mystery, everything is building, everything is unknown. That's what I have interest in.

    1. Is the Linear Guild A-List material? No - Tarquin and Malack up the ante a bit but Nale and all that? Meh - but why are they here? What is going to happen to them? If Nale is so *obviously* lame why does he keep coming back - surely he's going to serve some further plot point eventually. Is he going to die tragically? Join Xykon? Fall into the Rift? Accidentally succeed at killing one of the Order? I don't know and that intrigues me. Nale isn't interesting because of anything he's done, but the continual inclusion of him makes me think he's going to fulfill an important role and that mystery is far more fascinating to me than if he was a legitimate threat.

    2. The race - again you're right - why does it matter who gets there first? Because there is no ultimate 'solution' to any one side arriving that means that it's truly impossible to predict who will get their first. Hell, Xycon could already be there. If we knew what the Order would accomplish by getting there first we would probably know whether or not they were going to arrive first. There is no direct 'tension' here but there is the unknown. Who is going to arrive first and what are they going to accomplish?

    3. I saw you post at one point something along the lines of, "as it stands now there is no Snarl" - first off I don't know where you got that from. We may not know where the Snarl is but nothing could be used as evidence to say that there is no Snarl. All we have is another Unknown. Looking into the rift wasn't answering a question it was creating a dozen more. And if there is no Snarl then why does everyone think there is? What are the real motivations behind everything? What is going on?

    You also state that you have problems with the 'main story' - I'm going to be honest, I don't know what the 'main story' is and I don't think it's really possible to know at this point. Obviously it involves the OotS and the gates but do we know who the main villain is? Is it Xykon? Probably, but do we know that? Who are the (theoretical) nine sides in the conflict?

    tl;dr - I think the reason you're bored is because you're expecting a drama and OotS is not necessarily one. Obviously it's a comedy, but beyond that what is the goal of the story it's telling? I feel like it's trying to make me think, that it's approaching ideas and stories in a way different from the standard. I don't expect action and straight forward linear stories, I expect a mystery in which all the pieces come together and I just want to see that happen. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the whole thing is a straight-foward comedic drama and the entire second half is going to be about Xykon vs. Roy, but we're talking about a story in which a major plot point is the racist abuse that a monstrous race has endured all in the name of 'true good'.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    This has not happened. If Team Evil wins, nothing happens for now. They have to cast their ritual first and we do not know if that is a problem. We do not know how long it will take. All we know is that if they arrive, the race is not over, the other parties are still in the game.
    TE needs "few weeks" to complete the ritual. (Panel 8)
    Last edited by martianmister; 2013-03-01 at 04:36 PM.
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorcan View Post
    Winter,

    In reading your responses, I keep coming back to the point that you feel that what we saw through the rift above Azure City means that the Snarl is no longer much of a threat. I feel that this is a hasty assumption.
    Indeed. Could be that the Snarl has become a sentient planet, and wants to replace the current world with itself for some reason. Perhaps it got fed up with the concept of alignment, which causes more arguments than anything else, and sees the gods repeating the same mistakes over and over again. It rewove itself to create a testing ground for its theories on a different moral system, and believes them superior enough that it is willing to crush an entire plane of existence because it's better than letting the world live on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    1. The Linear Guild isn't A-Material
    ...The problem is I have with this that even the characters know it. The author knows it. The characters comment on how lame a second round with Thog would be and it even does not have a "big mystery" to reveal as we already knew who the fake Thog was...
    I find it puzzling how an author can be that aware his setup is weak (as it was done already several times and in-comic commented on)... and still do it.
    This. I mean, the Linear Guild outlived their novelty value roughly five minutes after... actually, they never had novelty value. That was the whole point. They might be tolerable as occasional black-comic relief, but they can't shoulder the weight of a genuine dramatic arc without moving beyond their status as one-note stereotypes. Which is their entire raison-d'etre.

    I don't think the key problem with the assault on the Gates is a lack of stakes or even a lack of suspense, it's the basic problem you have with any undeniable existential threat as a basic story mechanic- in and of and by itself, it tells you nothing about the characters' personalities. On a thematic level, zombie movies aren't about killing zombies, because that's a no-brainer. They're about the choices that survival forces on people, and what that tells you about their state of mind.

    Anyone who isn't actively suicidal has a compelling reason to not want the world to end, so as a basic premise it just hoovers up everyone indiscriminately. And since the OOTS got back together, there hasn't been much else to define them. Even the Empire of Blood sequence gave little insight into their characters, as- with a few exceptions- they went along passively with the circumstances forced upon them.

    The actual agonists of this sequence have been, for the most part, Malack and Tarquin- and naturally Redcloak. (Of course, my personal pick for most-interesting-character has been knocked out of the roster for some time, but that's another matter.)

    But, we'll see where the whole thing with V and Durkon is going. Maybe things will pick up.

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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    I disagree that there isn't any sense of Danger in the opening of the Gates. Maybe it's a harmless new world; maybe it's a danger than can be exploited by the Goblin Dark One; maybe it's the Snarl; maybe nothing bad happens except the Infernal Powers had a plan for the use of the Gates.

    Because of that, I don't feel a lack of drama in the 3-sided race, or even that the Linear Guild isn't worth watching. There's still the question of what players are going to be on the stage at the same time; we could have a 3 way battle for a gate. How will the Linear Guild line up? That's likely to resolve a lot of the family soap operas and create new tensions.

    All in all, this graphic novel is better than Dr. Zhivago.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    I did not have time to read the last replies, but given the current comic shows it so nicely:

    THIS is how you set up a decent threat and make readers believe "Yes, that is something that needs to get stopped!"
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    I did not have time to read the last replies, but given the current comic shows it so nicely:

    THIS is how you set up a decent threat and make readers believe "Yes, that is something that needs to get stopped!"
    ...You mean, spend hundreds of comics on character buildup and then make a threat in the process of completing the character? I agree, but doesn't that sort of undermine your criticism of the comic's progression?
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2013-03-02 at 06:08 AM.

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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    ...You mean, spend hundreds of comics on character buildup and then make a threat in the process of completing the character? I agree, but doesn't that sort of undermine your criticism of the comic's progression?
    No, build up an interesting setting from point one and keep it interesting by throwing in more and more morsels at us, then culmulating in an escalation that makes it even worse than we thought.
    Malack has been an interesting character from the start before a threatening environment and now turned into a an actual threat that must get stopped. We did not have to wait and wait and wait and wait for being able to speculate that "something is wrong with Malack", we could discuss that from the start.

    The Snarl was an interesting "character" but then got clubbed down without a replacement showing up and without us learning more to keep it interesting.

    Just look how many "Is Malack evil?"- or "Does Malack know about Tarquins plans?"-discussions and compare them to the usually simple and short-lived "Ok, what do we know about the Snarl" discussions. You'll find much more and more complex discussions of the former two types than of the latter.
    Last edited by Winter; 2013-03-02 at 06:17 AM.
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    No, build up an interesting setting from point one and keep it interesting by throwing in more and more morsels at us, then culmulating in an escalation that makes it even worse than we thought.
    Malack has been an interesting character from the start before a threatening environment and now turned into a an actual threat that must get stopped. We did not have to wait and wait and wait and wait for being able to speculate that "something is wrong with Malack", we could discuss that from the start.

    The Snarl was an interesting "character" but then got clubbed down without a replacement showing up and without us learning more to keep it interesting.

    Just look how many "Is Malack evil?"- or "Does Malack know about Tarquins plans?"-discussions and compare them to the usually simple and short-lived "Ok, what do we know about the Snarl" discussions. You'll find much more and more complex discussions of the former two types than of the latter.
    It kinda helps that Malack and Tarquin are actual villains, whereas the Snarl is the potential tool of a few villains and the perceived tool of several others. Again, you're comparing two different designs--all the more obvious because one is a subplot of the other.

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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Again, you're comparing two different designs--all the more obvious because one is a subplot of the other.
    I more think you refuse to take my perspective. The distinction between "object", "character" or "situation" vanishes when you see them all as "plot tools". There's no difference between "A chaos-thingie will eat the empire" and "Some Vampire Overlord wants to take power" that stems from one being a not-character and the other a character.
    I expressed what I wanted to expressed and I think I did it in a concise way. You're free to follow it or not (and the "not" can also be for the wrong reasons).
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    No, build up an interesting setting from point one and keep it interesting by throwing in more and more morsels at us, then culmulating in an escalation that makes it even worse than we thought.
    Malack has been an interesting character from the start before a threatening environment and now turned into a an actual threat that must get stopped. We did not have to wait and wait and wait and wait for being able to speculate that "something is wrong with Malack", we could discuss that from the start.

    The Snarl was an interesting "character" but then got clubbed down without a replacement showing up and without us learning more to keep it interesting.

    Just look how many "Is Malack evil?"- or "Does Malack know about Tarquins plans?"-discussions and compare them to the usually simple and short-lived "Ok, what do we know about the Snarl" discussions. You'll find much more and more complex discussions of the former two types than of the latter.
    I can't quite get your argument. I think it only works under the assumption that we know what the Snarl is, which we totally don't know. I think the problem with "we don't have enough Snarl-discussion" is [which I do not think is a problem], that we don't know enough to even get a solid starting point (nearly anything is possible (and even in the beginning we didn't know all that much - we learned tiny little bits (especially that it isn't really clear what's going on)).

    By assuring that there are enough parties showing interest in the Snarl/Gates, it is pretty safe to assume that it is not good. (Best example: The IFCC: We know that they are up to something really nasty: 668. Even if the Snarl is no threat at all (which I think is quite unlikely), the Gates are really dangerous ("5*Familicide-Kill-Count=trival" is really bad news), maybe it doesn't involve the Snarl, maybe the Gates have more uses than sealing the rifts)

    So the question for me is, why you think the Snarl/Gates are not interesting? Because we learn to little of them? (We learn about them at a real slow pace, but with all subplots/characters going on, it would be kinda unsatisfactory to skip to the end in the next 5 strips) Not advancing main plot != boring. [And in advancing-main-plot, I think GRRM isn't really faster than Rich, heck there I don't even know what the main-plot is after reading 5 books (which where totally awesome)]

    Unless Rich (or GRRM) want to go "Lost" on us, I really don't have a problem with such a slow main-plot-pace. (And even then I would have to say it would have been worth my time, though it would be a real strong letdown)
    Last edited by ChristianSt; 2013-05-17 at 08:21 AM. Reason: Edited to add singature

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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianSt View Post
    , that we don't know enough to even get a solid starting point
    Yes, that is exactly where it gets boring to me. We have no starting points and not much to work from there.

    Drama-by-Mystery: It's no mystery to discover because we do not know where to start and what to talk about.

    Drama-by-Danger: It also does not stand on its own as the Rifts apparently eat no one, as the comic has very solidly established.

    You pretty much nailed my complaint with the above quote (and I know I ripped the following context off).
    Last edited by Winter; 2013-03-02 at 07:11 AM.
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    I did not have time to read the last replies, but given the current comic shows it so nicely:

    THIS is how you set up a decent threat and make readers believe "Yes, that is something that needs to get stopped!"
    So...what's the problem with the current main-plot? Which is about the Order trying to stop Tarquin and Malack (and their pawns in the Linear Guild) while Xykon and Redcloak move in the background?
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    No, build up an interesting setting from point one and keep it interesting by throwing in more and more morsels at us, then culmulating in an escalation that makes it even worse than we thought.
    Malack has been an interesting character from the start before a threatening environment and now turned into a an actual threat that must get stopped. We did not have to wait and wait and wait and wait for being able to speculate that "something is wrong with Malack", we could discuss that from the start.

    The Snarl was an interesting "character" but then got clubbed down without a replacement showing up and without us learning more to keep it interesting.

    Just look how many "Is Malack evil?"- or "Does Malack know about Tarquins plans?"-discussions and compare them to the usually simple and short-lived "Ok, what do we know about the Snarl" discussions. You'll find much more and more complex discussions of the former two types than of the latter.
    But the Snarl was never a character--
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    I more think you refuse to take my perspective. The distinction between "object", "character" or "situation" vanishes when you see them all as "plot tools". There's no difference between "A chaos-thingie will eat the empire" and "Some Vampire Overlord wants to take power" that stems from one being a not-character and the other a character.
    --uh.

    I don't--but this makes no sense. The Snarl was never presented as something that had any independent intelligence. The question was always and only "what will it do if channeled by Xykon/Redcloak/The Dark One." Comparing Malack threads to Snarl threads doesn't make any sense; effectively, you're complaining that Malack is a more interesting character than Malack's staff. We can discuss the morality, knowledge, and plans of Xykon, Redcloak, the Dark One, the Dark One's allies among the gods right now. You may not want to make a distinction between "a character" and "not a character," but the answer to your current complaint is still: if you expect a "plot tool" that isn't a character to be interesting and complex in the same ways a character would be, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Yes, that is exactly where it gets boring to me. We have no starting points and not much to work from there.

    Drama-by-Mystery: It's no mystery to discover because we do not know where to start and what to talk about.
    Well, let's see. How about:

    What will Xykon do if Redcloak performs his ritual and nothing happens?
    Does the Dark One know what's actually behind the rifts?

    ...and, again, as I said in one of the posts you said you didn't read, how is this different from the state of the online comic circa strip #828? The state of the entire published comic one day before Start of Darkness came out?
    Last edited by Kish; 2013-03-02 at 08:43 AM.

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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Just throwing this one out there, even if it's only related to one of the OP's points:

    I personally believe getting first to the gate might not only be important to the Order to summon the planar ally, but also in order to start Elan's great plan. On a similiar note, I believe that they'd need LG to come second, and Team Evil to stay away for the plan to be in effect.

    What do we know of the plan?
    1. It doesn't sparkle "Elan, you're stupid" arguments from his team members, this may imply that there's something to it.

    2. It involves Tarquin and Nale, the two leaders of the Linear Guild. As such it may greatly change one of the three parties after the gate.

    3. It's a story, and as such, there's no way it will go exactly as planned, but still, we know there's something up that might change the status quo greatly, but again, this depends on the order getting time to prepare.

    Based on these speculations I feel there's some urgency to getting to the Gate first for the Order.

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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I don't know about you, Winter, but I was never inclined to bet a great deal that even Redcloak knew what The Plan truly was. Nor am I inclined, now, to bet a great deal that the Dark One doesn't know what's on the other side of the rifts.[...]
    This is not my issue. Not knowing everything is fine and how it must be. My issue is that the Snarl is super-dangerous and everything of the rifts we saw earlier indicates this is true.
    My issue is that we have proof now the Rifts in itself are harmless and the Snarl does not seem to be there anymore.
    Yes, I can speculate the Rifts are not doing anything because there are still other gates on it, I can speculate that the planet was just an illusion (imagine... a sleeping Snarl?). I can do all those things but my problem is that I *have* to do them to find a sense of threat in the main plot and have to trust that, while it's not there, currently, the author will at some point in the future tell us again "Yeah, this is still dangerous".
    Imagine Fox Mulder chasing some Alien-Iluminati-conspiracy and at the end of Season 3 he finds some massive mystery that resolves a lot but makes sure there's a big, big threat. Then in the first episode of the next season, one night, he gets a phonecall explaining to him there, indeed, is that conspiracy but "We are going on a vacation for the next year. Feel free to chase us in between, we're going to be back and we're going to call you".
    This is how the main-threat feels to me at the moment. The entire season might be good but the Big Stuff That is Really Moving Behind the Scenes isn't interesting until the phonecall came that Dr. Evil and his Minions are back from their vacation of Doing Nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    This trust is no different from trusting that when a good author slows down the pace doing character development halfway through a novel, that he'll appropriately speed things up in the coming pages. The only difference is that those pages haven't been completed yet.
    As I said before, I disagree. Even before the author slows the pacing, he should not just put his threat into sleepmode.

    On a side note, ASoIaF might be a sprawling epic, but over the last couple of books it has sprawled flat on its face, lost all sense of pacing, and thrown in a few too many "evil people having gratuitous deviant sex" (connotations of "it's baaaaad because evil people are doing it") for my liking on top of everything else.
    Ok, let's talk about ASoIaF: Yes, I think the 4th book and the first 3rd of the 5th is too slow. Lots of people walk around and do character development while the main-plot stagnates somewhat. I think I could call up the same critique about that than I'm doing right now, here.
    And that critique (see above!) still stands even if I am more happy with how the fifth book went on. That is what you meant "The author picks it up again, you just need to be patient". No. Even if he did, especially at the end of book 5, I still think that book 4 is somewhat "less than optimal" (like the main-threat of this comic at the moment).
    I think book 4 isn't doing a lot of "going anywhere". Btw, this is something I do not see in OotS. All the cool character plots do go somewhere and whatever seems slow there is just a matter of pacing (and I can live with that). I just dislike Nale, the rest is totally fine. ;)
    And while we are at it: I am very skeptical how the (so far very good) TV show will work out during book 4, especially if they want to split that into two seasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    TE needs "few weeks" to complete the ritual. (Panel 8)
    Thank you, I forgot that section. So if Team Evil wins, they're actually going to sit at the gate. Maybe they already are? ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    So...what's the problem with the current main-plot? Which is about the Order trying to stop Tarquin and Malack (and their pawns in the Linear Guild) while Xykon and Redcloak move in the background?
    Yes, about that. As I wrote above already.

    I don't--but this makes no sense. The Snarl was never presented as something that had any independent intelligence.
    It does not have to. It just needs to be a threat of a convincing scale. It does not matter, in regard to being a plot-device, if it can explain why it wants to eat your soul and why it picked this time and place or you know if it just will because it's chaos.

    if you expect a "plot tool" that isn't a character to be interesting and complex in the same ways a character would be, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.
    If the driving motivator behind "everything" is "We need to save the world from entity X" then the plot requires "Entity X" to be a threat to the world.
    Right now, the Snarl seems to sleep behind the rifts and it is left to me to imagine why that is (or could) still be a problem.
    I love to speculate on mystery-enemies and what they mean and want or why they are, but I see no point in having to come up with my own reasons why the "mystery" is the "enemy" to make what's going on gripping.

    What will Xykon do if Redcloak performs his ritual and nothing happens?
    Does the Dark One know what's actually behind the rifts?
    I find those questions interesting. What I do not find interesting is watching a bunch of people running at a chest where they believe the switch to unhinge the universe to be in but it already got revealed to us it's disabled anyway at the moment.

    ...and, again, as I said in one of the posts you said you didn't read, how is this different from the state of the online comic circa strip #828? The state of the entire published comic one day before Start of Darkness came out?
    It is different because:
    First, it was a D&D-joke strip. No one expected a story.
    Then it was about defeating Xykon, who was evil. I still did not expect an epic story, but being on a Dungeon Crawl and some Evil Lich being at the end was a perfectly working threat the Order. It worked.
    The Xykon was defeated, but we instantly learned that he was still up and running. That was fine, as whatever Xykon wanted to do with the gates still was on the tap. Xykon was clearly a threat in the background, he just needed time to regenerate.
    Then the story escalated. We learned from Shojo what the gates actually were and it now was not about stopping a sorcerer from doing something with some gate (which must be bad) but about saving the world from getting unmade.
    That stayed the driving motivator behind the story. Us learning the Plan of Redcloak (in SoD or the strip you posted) changed nothing, as we knew the Snarl was super-dangerous to fiddle with it and it could very well end in the unmaking of the world.

    The problem now is that we were told "The Rifts are bad and daaaangerous! Don't mess with them" but Azure City was for ages below it, nothing happened. A lot of Gates have been destroyed, nothing happened. Redcloak mucked around with the Rift when he was interrogating O-Chul, nothing happend. Xykon and Blackwing flew right next to it, nothing happened. Blackwing looked into the Rift and saw... nothing snarly.
    So the driving threat behind everything that was "This is daaangerous!" and as such was not complex but surely worked got turned into "Well, apparently not. Now... let's wait for... it to go on". I think many people here disagree to that, but I simply do not find that gripping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwy View Post
    Based on these speculations I feel there's some urgency to getting to the Gate first for the Order.
    What could Elan do with the gate that he cannot do outside of the door while Tarquin looks at the gate and tries to come up with an idea what to do with it?
    Whatever Elan's plan is, I doubt it involves the gates. It might involve his mother, someone else we met or have not met, but I'd be surprised if he needs the gate for a while to dress it up in a his father surprising way.
    Last edited by Winter; 2013-03-02 at 01:56 PM.
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    So everything would be fine if a few random goblins a month (or week?) would die to Snarl/Rift-radiation?

    And besides that - we know - that the IFCC is up to something really nasty. (That was revealed nearly the same time as planet-inside-rift thing). So unless you say that's also bogus, the main target is still more or less saving the world. (Ok, maybe it is not god-eating-abomination-bad)
    Last edited by ChristianSt; 2013-05-17 at 08:22 AM. Reason: Edited to add singature

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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    As I said before, I disagree. Even before the author slows the pacing, he should not just put his threat into sleepmode.
    His threat started in sleepmode. What's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Ok, let's talk about ASoIaF: Yes, I think the 4th book and the first 3rd of the 5th is too slow. Lots of people walk around and do character development while the main-plot stagnates somewhat. I think I could call up the same critique about that than I'm doing right now, here.
    ASoIaF didn't do character development in those books, though. It just made the world even bigger and introduced a bunch of new characters that only got minimal characterization. OotS put Team Evil in a holding pattern while the protagonists dealt with personal plotlines and the EoB; ASoIaF threw together so many plotlines and people that a 1000-page book couldn't give half of them adequate time to develop. Those are very different choices with very different critiques.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    If the driving motivator behind "everything" is "We need to save the world from entity X" then the plot requires "Entity X" to be a threat to the world.
    That was never the driving motivator behind everything, though. It was always secondary to whatever the villains (!) were planning to do with the Gates. It's an Armageddon clock, not the Antichrist. I think a lot of your complaints derive from this over-emphasis of the Snarl as an active player in the plot. It isn't, and that's by design.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2013-03-02 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Yes, that is exactly where it gets boring to me. We have no starting points and not much to work from there.

    Drama-by-Mystery: It's no mystery to discover because we do not know where to start and what to talk about.

    Drama-by-Danger: It also does not stand on its own as the Rifts apparently eat no one, as the comic has very solidly established.

    You pretty much nailed my complaint with the above quote (and I know I ripped the following context off).
    Your rules pretty much disqualify everything considered to be good science fiction.

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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    The MacGuffin is not the antagonist. The MacGuffin is the object sought by the antagonist. Narratively speaking, it does not matter what it does—only that the antagonist is willing to kill the protagonist to get it. That is the source of the conflict. It does not matter what is in the rift, it matters who is willing to kill whom to get it, even if they are mistaken about its usefulness. What is in the rift is only important insofar as it may, at some point, change who is willing to kill whom and why. And that IS important, because those details will change the shape of what happens, but not as the source of conflict. The Snarl is not the threat; Xykon is the threat. The Snarl's powers have as much relevance to the quest to get the Snarl as the exact properties of the glowing briefcase have on the plot of Pulp Fiction, or the exact dollar value of the statue in The Maltese Falcon.

    Likewise, the setting is not the protagonist. What happens to the world is only important because the protagonists are the sort of people who care about what happens to the world. If Team Evil or the Linear Guild kills the entire Order of the Stick and then takes the Gate only to find that it does not do what they thought it did...how does that help the Order of the Stick? They will still be dead, and the story is about them. The Linear Guild is not a threat because they will do something bad with the Gate; they are a threat because they will kill the Order of the Stick to do it. At the end of Star Wars, one does not care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin 4; one cares that the Death Star is about to kill the protagonists, some of whom happen to be on Yavin 4.

    If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care. The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World. Ultimately, it seems like you want the story to be about things it is not going to be about, so it's unlikely you are ever going to enjoy it.
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    Default Re: The current main-plot is boring

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Likewise, the setting is not the protagonist. What happens to the world is only important because the protagonists are the sort of people who care about what happens to the world. If Team Evil or the Linear Guild kills the entire Order of the Stick and then takes the Gate only to find that it does not do what they thought it did...how does that help the Order of the Stick? They will still be dead, and the story is about them. The Linear Guild is not a threat because they will do something bad with the Gate; they are a threat because they will kill the Order of the Stick to do it. At the end of Star Wars, one does not care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin 4; one cares that the Death Star is about to kill the protagonists, some of whom happen to be on Yavin 4.
    I know this is kinda hijacking the point, but this perfectly sums up my dissatisfaction with ASoIaF.

    Um. Anyway. Great post, Giant.

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