Unlimited power with SRD only materials

[gooddragon1]

But with the pun-pun. It is actually acknowledged without the 'whining' that you are doing. Here you are in the bootcamp 'oh crap! That is actually being usable against me. WAHHH *crying eyes*'.

Expanding on 'too general', you choose to try and 'gate in a solar' but the 'solar' denies your request due to it being a deity or a unique being. Dwell on that please.

@Ltwerewolf: That is entering into territory that I am trying to get gooddragon to understand, but he isn't.

Then I acknowledge everything it does.

Now listen to this: My DM is a computer. It's not capable of what you are stating.

Please take the above line into careful consideration for your next post.

[LTwerewolf]

Even every possible thing going in his favor, just the natural way these creatures would react to the situation would prevent this from happening. But let's say it works out and the item is miraculously created. What's to stop the original wizard from turning him to ash before he can even equip it?

A good wizard would not want someone dealing with evil beings to posses something that powerful and an evil wizard would kill him just to take it. A neutral wizard probably for both.

[gooddragon1]

Even every possible thing going in his favor, just the natural way these creatures would react to the situation would prevent this from happening. But let's say it works out and the item is miraculously created. What's to stop the original wizard from turning him to ash before he can even equip it?

A good wizard would not want someone dealing with evil beings to posses something that powerful and an evil wizard would kill him just to take it. A neutral wizard probably for both.

The fact that it is a computer simulation. That is not programmed to happen.

[LTwerewolf]

The fact that it is a computer simulation. That is not programmed to happen.

If we're going there then how about this: it is not programmed for you to have a candle. We can create arbitrary rules that force things to work or not too.

[animewatcha]

Computers, devils, and lawyers. All can screw you over due to 'too general.'

Please take the above line into careful consideration for your next post.

@Ltwerewolf: Out of curiousity. Mind PMing me what you think I am trying to get at cause it does seem like we are of one mind of what I'm trying to get at. Just curious.

[gooddragon1]

I see. Well, I assume the computer uses only the written rules and doesn't deviate from them. It doesn't assume that a solar can resist or be unavailable because that isn't stated in the monster entry. It doesn't assume that I can't start with a candle of invocation if I have enough GP because of limited access. It doesn't assume that a trap or the deities or something else stops me because that isn't listed as a direct result in the rules. Moreover it doesn't assume those last 2 things happen because my instances occur independent of the fluff of the campaign which allows for deities to stop me or Solars to be uncooperative.

My DM is cooperative as long as I don't break the written rules.

[Theoretical Optimization]What could happen if everything went right as long as you followed the rules? Here's what: <insert title of this thread> [/Theoretical Optimization]

My DM is not you. He does not care what you would do. He has no mind for campaign balance. He just follows the rules even if they are broken.

Stick your head in a bucket of water for stabilization? Sounds fine by the rules he says.

Alter self to turn into an undead when you're a human without supporting rules? Nope, the rules don't allow for that.

Power word stun scribed in 1 word and you want to scribe more? Sorry, you're going to have to wait.

[animewatcha]

The computer can perfectly assume all that 'we are trying get through to you' can perfectly happen and naturally too. The 'solar' that the gate reaches rightfully saying F U due to you being unwise in your use of the gate. Similar logic applies to the usage of the wish spell-like ability.

-editing- Part of what I am trying to get at lies in that very comic too.

[gooddragon1]

The computer can perfectly assume all that 'we are trying get through to you' can perfectly happen and naturally too. The 'solar' that the gate reaches rightfully saying F U due to you being unwise in your use of the gate. Similar logic applies to the usage of the wish spell-like ability.

Well, by the computations and figures my DM is presenting to me, that's not what happens at all.

Look, I honestly don't care how you feel about it or whether or not you feel it's broken. I know it's broken. I'm just engaging in a mental exercise. If you're going to keep saying that it wouldn't happen because of fluff reasons I'm going to stop listening.

[LTwerewolf]

What you're calling "fluff" is "how the creatures respond." That's part of the rules as written. It's also written very clearly.

[animewatcha]

Actually, by the computations and figures your DM is presenting to you, it actually is what is happening. For all the smarts in the world, you certainly aren't wise in your approach. ( Hmm.. Intelligence. Hmm.. Wisdom. )

My posts reign true regardless of how I feel about it or whether or not I think it's broken. Trying to get you to learn what your screw up ( and the concept applies in reallife too ) is in this 'mental exercise' but you aren't getting it. I can't help it if the 'fluff reason' of 'too general' keeps blocking your thing.

You asked how in the rules you would not get your magic item and I am giving you what you want. It's your problem if you don't want to accept it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Has anyone else read gooddragon's sig?

I think it explains this thread in a nutshell.

on topic: you wanna use precedence as an argument huh?

Look at all the other abilities listed under wish's safe list. These are the things that are unquestionbly within the power of the spell, whether cast as a spell or a spell-like or even a supernatural ability. Trying to eke more power out of the spell results in bad, bad things.

Are you honestly arguing that creating a magic item that exceeds these other abilities by an unambiguously, nearly-infinite margin is actually within the power of the spell?

This is completely unreasonable under any interpretation of the rules.

Then there's the specific trumps general argument. Any time a rule makes an exception to a general rule, you follow the general rule but change it for the exception.

In this case, the general rule is that creating magic items requires feats, gold, xp, and (occasionally) a spell or two. Wish makes a specific exception for the xp cost, and it's not unreasonable to assume that, since wish can replicate any spell of up to 6th level and any arcane spell of up to 8th, that it stands in for the spell prerequisites. By the same token, since the spell can generate up to 2500gp worth of non-magical material, it could stand in for the gp cost of creating an item up to that figure. Interpreting the spell to bypass the feat restriction is completely arbitrary.

Your "trick" only, unambiguously, bypasses the xp cost. The rest of your interpretation is completely arbitrary, and quite clearly exceeds the power of the spell, by any reasonable interpretation.

More importantly; RAW, as used in the context of theoretical optimization, means what the rules clearly and unambiguously say a character can do with no interpretation at all. The moment you interpret a rule, it's not RAW anymore, at least not by the accepted definition of RAW the community as agreed upon.

[gooddragon1]

What you're calling "fluff" is "how the creatures respond." That's part of the rules as written. It's also written very clearly.

I'd love to know where that's written. Seriously. Where is it written that they'll just deny you. That they can ignore a gate spell compelling them as they lack the HD to do so. That when you wish for a solar and the closest one with the right HD gets pulled in that it can do anything to say no?

But I want you to know, my DMbot says it does work and doesn't complain.

===

Has anyone else read gooddragon's sig?

I think it explains this thread in a nutshell.

on topic: you wanna use precedence as an argument huh?

Look at all the other abilities listed under wish's safe list. These are the things that are unquestionbly within the power of the spell, whether cast as a spell or a spell-like or even a supernatural ability. Trying to eke more power out of the spell results in bad, bad things.

Are you honestly arguing that creating a magic item that exceeds these other abilities by an unambiguously, nearly-infinite margin is actually within the power of the spell?

This is completely unreasonable under any interpretation of the rules.

Then there's the specific trumps general argument. Any time a rule makes an exception to a general rule, you follow the general rule but change it for the exception.

In this case, the general rule is that creating magic items requires feats, gold, xp, and (occasionally) a spell or two. Wish makes a specific exception for the xp cost, and it's not unreasonable to assume that, since wish can replicate any spell of up to 6th level and any arcane spell of up to 8th, that it stands in for the spell prerequisites. By the same token, since the spell can generate up to 2500gp worth of non-magical material, it could stand in for the gp cost of creating an item up to that figure. Interpreting the spell to bypass the feat restriction is completely arbitrary.

Your "trick" only, unambiguously, bypasses the xp cost. The rest of your interpretation is completely arbitrary, and quite clearly exceeds the power of the spell, by any reasonable interpretation.

More importantly; RAW, as used in the context of theoretical optimization, means what the rules clearly and unambiguously say a character can do with no interpretation at all. The moment you interpret a rule, it's not RAW anymore, at least not by the accepted definition of RAW the community as agreed upon.

You: This is completely unreasonable under any interpretation of the rules.
Me: Says you.

You miss a part, creating a magic item normally requires those. The text of wish specifies that you must spend a certain amount of XP to perform that action and does not mention prerequisites as a requirement.

When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

I am using only the rules as they are presented. No prerequisite mentioned. No prerequisite required.

For your final part: I am using the spell as it is worded and in a vacuum with very limited access to anything else.

[Psyren]

I still maintain that the Efreet is the weak link in this chain. A Wish can, by RAW, actually do anything at all. There is a list of safe uses, but going outside these uses is only unsafe for PCs.

Where I am going with this, is that an Efreet can grant a wish to any non-genie - your worst enemy, or an angry deity, an organization charged with maintaining balance over the world etc. - to strip you of every iota of power this trick would have gained you, render your uber-item nonfunctional, steal it from/turn it against you etc. Only the DM's whim will stop this "counter-wish" from functioning exactly as desired, which is the fiat you seek to avoid.

Even if your trick works, given the stated nature of Efreeti, they will be more than happy to screw you over in this fashion long before you've gained any significant power in your magic stick of magicalness.

[Kelb_Panthera]

By your same logic the gods would stop pun-pun. And they would. We assume for the purpose of this thread that none of that happens.

The gods stopping pun pun is ambiguous.

The gods are aware of events in the world only as they pertain to the individual god's portfolio. Pun pun's actions bounce from one portfolio to another quite rapidly, and no individual action would be worthy of garnering divine attention.

There's also the issue of only greater gods being able to forsee the future, and only by a season or so at that.

Basically, the gods get as long as it takes completed pun pun to jack his abilities beyond their power to both notice and stop him.

Pun pun's construction probably goes unnoticed, his final rise to power is a craps-shoot.

[LTwerewolf]

I can create an ai dm that won't allow it. It's not hard, and still RAW. That yours does is not proof. Also it's written in the various sections on how the various creatures act. The paragon of lawful good will not reward you for interacting with an evil outsider. The angel will almost definitely make the save against the generic item or against the efreeti because they have a high will save, and that's assuming the one called doesn't happen to be unique.

Edit: I'd love to see his face if a real dm made it all seem to work, then he puts on the item and instantly is disintegrated.

[animewatcha]

Where it's written is what I am about your usage of the candle and the wish. Your DMbot says what you want 'can' work and doesn't complain. Your method of getting to work, though. Another story altogether due to your poor usage of the candle and ( if you can ever get to this stage ) the wish.

[gooddragon1]

Well, I'm still ignoring all the fluff.

If someone wants to provide me with some crunch to dispute I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: Try to please everyone and you will please no one.

EDIT2: I OFFICIALLY CEDE THAT BY FLUFF THIS COMBO DOES NOT WORK. Raw is another matter.

[LTwerewolf]

Well, I'm still ignoring all the fluff.

If someone wants to provide me with some crunch to dispute I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: Try to please everyone and you will please no one.

All I see here is "well I want it to work, so I'm ignoring the reasons it won't." Good day sir.

[gooddragon1]

All I see here is "well I want it to work, so I'm ignoring the reasons it won't." Good day sir.

Again, says you.

[animewatcha]

Except that the fluff you are trying to ignore is kicking your rear right now.

The crunch that you are seeking is being provided to you. Your poor usage of the candle and ( if you can ever get to this stage ) the wish.

[gooddragon1]

Except that the fluff you are trying to ignore is kicking your rear right now.

The crunch that you are seeking is being provided to you. Your poor usage of the candle and ( if you can ever get to this stage ) the wish.

The fluff does not exist for me. I don't even notice it. My responses to your other statements can be seen earlier in this thread and I will not repeat them.

EDIT: RAW and fluff used in a sentence like that. Well, not much I can say about that.

EDIT2: I'm not going to dignify the post below this one with another post. I'll just try my best to ignore those ones from here on out.

[animewatcha]

By RAW, the fluff and the crunch is kicking your rear due to 'too general.'

[LTwerewolf]

Fluff is as written. It matters. Punpun works with the fluff, there is no dispute. That's what makes him such a good thought experiment. He works within ALL the rules, not just the mechanical ones.

[gooddragon1]

Fluff is as written. It matters. Punpun works with the fluff, there is no dispute. That's what makes him such a good thought experiment. He works within ALL the rules, not just the mechanical ones.

Now you have your candle.
4. Use the Candle to Gate in an Efreeti. He is under your control so you will command him to grant you three wishes. The first is to Plane Shift to the Astral Plane. The second is for another Candle of Invocation. The third is to stop George Lucas from moving forward on Indiana Jones 5.
5. Use the Candle to Gate in a Sarruhk. Command him to grant you Manipulate Form through the use of Manipulate Form.

Source.

Are you sure?

[LTwerewolf]

Using an efreeti is not the big problem, it's using the solar afterwards that creates the bigger mess. Plus the efreeti has a much lower will save than the solar, so there's more of a chance you'll actually bind it. Yes, I'm sure.

[gooddragon1]

Using an efreeti is not the big problem, it's using the solar afterwards that creates the bigger mess. Plus the efreeti has a much lower will save than the solar, so there's more of a chance you'll actually bind it. Yes, I'm sure.

Gate
Conjuration (Creation or Calling)
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: See text
Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate.

The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster’s choice), oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.

A gate has a front and a back. Creatures moving through the gate from the front are transported to the other plane; creatures moving through it from the back are not.
Planar Travel

As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect). Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire. Travelers need not join hands with you—anyone who chooses to step through the portal is transported. A gate cannot be opened to another point on the same plane; the spell works only for interplanar travel.

You may hold the gate open only for a brief time (no more than 1 round per caster level), and you must concentrate on doing so, or else the interplanar connection is severed.
Calling Creatures

The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type.
XP Cost

1,000 XP (only for the calling creatures function).

Hmm. That's strange. I used the find function to find the word bind. Gave me a "phrase not found" response. Could you do me a favor and underline that word in there for me? Or where it says they get a saving throw?

[animewatcha]

Within the comic that gooddragon posted, gooddragon is the lady headbanded character while the rest of us are trying to be the male spellcaster trying to explain things to her.

[The Glyphstone]

Source.

Are you sure?

George Lucas has stats in the Complete Film Directors sourcebook.

[gooddragon1]

George Lucas has stats in the Complete Film Directors sourcebook.

Those stats are 3.0 and we use only 3.5 even if 3.0 could easily be converted. Sorry.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Those stats are 3.0 and we use only 3.5 even if 3.0 could easily be converted. Sorry.

*buzzer*

Wrong again. RAW, 3.0 material is legal in 3.5 as long as it hasn't been updated.

Also, what am I, chopped liver? I see no response to my previous post.