Should Tanks have low AC?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I made a Moon Knight build in honor the show coming out and it made me think of something.

Tanks should have low AC

One of the issues with tanks in D&D, especially 5e, is that there's no reason to attack the tank instead of the easier target. In many games, like say Final Fantasy XIII, the tank has a way to force enemies to attack them. 5e D&D has very limited ways to force an enemy to target your high AC/high HP tank instead od the scary, but squishy, mage.

So, why not give creatures an incentive? Make your tank with low AC and high HP so that you the tank will be the target of attacks. Barbarians already do something like this with reckless attack, advantage is usually worth +3 ish attack points after all.

Barbarians even gain the other core feature of a tank, easy to hit, hard to damage... At least when they rage.

Qualities of a tank

Easy to hit (low AC)

Can take the hit (high HP)

Can shrug off some damage (resistance)

Can dish out damage (at-will or NOVA)

So, the next time you make a tank, think about making your AC low so that enemies will target you without having to act dumb.

[False God]

Doesn't it present the same problem? Yes they can hit you...but the enemy is still going to recognize that you're not dying from those hits. Ultimately to me that reads as the same thing: they're trying to kill you and it's not working and there are much more killable targets in range.

As much as D&D has traditionally promoted the "holy trinity" only 4E ever made it functional beyond requiring a healer. Even in MMOs, the "hard to hit and hard to kill" portion of tanking only really functions against heavy-hitting "bosses". For crowd-control, almost all the classes have AOE and group-management abilities. After the "failure" of 4E, you've never going to get true "tanking" mechanics in D&D.

Rather than attempting to build a low-AC, high-HP, damage-reducing, self-healing "tank", it'd be simpler to include "zone control" feats or class features. A "Combat Reflexes, but for tanks" ability that increases the number of AOOs you get, or a "taunt" mechanic that punishes enemies for attacking enemies other than the tank would be simpler to achieve the end goal of an MMO-style "tank".

Quite frankly, D&D enemies aren't dumb-ai controlled morons either. Even relatively stupid creatures can figure out that their attacks aren't having an effect on a given target.

On another note, 5E runs on something of an "arrow to the knee" function. Players tend to be hard to hit, but have low HP. Monsters are the opposite, with high HP and low AC. This is also a rewarding mechanic that lets players feel "successful" (by killing monsters and not dying). A low levels, high AC is all a "tank" really has to protect themselves from the natural randomness of the game.

TLDR: Enemies don't target you because you're easy to hit. They target you because you're easy to kill. Hitting a target is meaningless if it isn't dying. "Tanks" in D&D need better crowd control, plain and simple. From Warlord-esque "shouts" or magical auras to compel enemies to attack them, to straight-up "taunt" effects, magical or otherwise.

[bid]

So, the next time you make a tank, think about making your AC low so that enemies will target you without having to act dumb.

Even if you are AC15 like that wizard, you're still harder to bring down. You need more than that to be targeted first.

[LudicSavant]

The thing that makes people not want to hit turtles is that their durability is high, but their threat is low. Whether that durability is high because of HP or AC is rather irrelevant.

People don't empty pistols into actual tanks just because they're easy to hit in the real world. People don't assume that the Hulk is gonna be squishier than Iron Man just because he's not wearing a shirt in a world of heroes.

Likewise, people don't assume that bears are easy to kill just because they have a low AC.

[Sidson]

Great tanks in 5e do have mechanic(s) that make them worth attacking or make their allies less worth.
Some of them (Totem Barbarian, Cavalier Fighter) have means to impose disadvantage on attacking their allies or advantage on attacking the tank (or both).
Some of them (like feat Sentinel or Cavalier Fighter) have ways to stop the move of the enemy who wants to pass them to reach more squishy allies.
Some of them have ways to counter when ally in their vincinity is attacked (like Cavalier Fighter).
Some of them can shield their allies or take damage of them (like Abjurer Wizard! Also a tank!).
There are more examples, just these four came to my mind first.
Most of tanks have also high AC and/or HP to be able to be attacked more times. It's not a bug, it's a feature... when there is a mechanic to 'aggro' enemies or shield them in other way.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

When I play a tank I play a Sorcadin (Hexsorcadin most of the time).

I walk straight into the enemies smiting and if I can with spirit guardians/Bless and far step.

I chase the enemy casters and make sure it will be hard for them to cast.

Most of the time I get 8-12 enemies on me(trying to save the leader/caster).

As a paladin it is hard to fail saves and I have a lot of HP(upcast Aid).
Most of my characters look for a clock of displacement and +x shield/armor/weapon (I like warhammers).

Nobody ignore the block of metal if he is at range and killing you friends while cursing your god.

[Sidson]

Nobody ignore the block of metal if he is at range and killing you friends while cursing your god.

Yeah. The mechanic "I wreck havoc AND I have high survivability" is also good to make enemies attack you. :D

[pragma]

I maintain that wizards are the real tanks of D&D 5e: wide area debuffs that can be turned off by breaking concentration ought to draw a lot of fire from intelligent enemies.

[Fable Wright]

The best tank in 5e is probably Forge Cleric.

1. High defenses.
2. Very relevant resistances and immunities.
3. Spirit Guardians, making it difficult to slip past even if you wanted to, and forcing enemy aggro on yourself.

Granted, Tunnel Fighter Polearm Master Sentinel fighter or paladin or barbarian? They're arguably better, but rely on Unearthed Arcana.

Druids are kinda good at tanking by means of summons. Wall of Stench Kow, for example, repositions to entirely block the backline, has relevant damage and threatening opportunity attacks, but that's not really traditional 'tanking'.

[Atalas]

The key to D&D tanking is, depending on the DM, making yourself as obnoxious to the enemies as you can be. The goal isn't to have ALL of the enemies focusing on you, like in an MMO, but to have as many as possible focusing on you. This can be done by being a big threat with huge damage like paladin smites, verbally taunting the enemy (with or without checks), or just doing something to seem like you're more of a threat than you really are.

in one game I'm in, the party's 'tank' is a paladin. 24 AC, 25 using a reaction. We are at level 20 now. When she hits things, they feel it. And she is very good at interposing herself between the enemy of the squishy casters. Party is Paladin, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, and Sorcerer. Wizard has a Robe of the Archmage so disadvantage on attacks until hit, plus free Shield, so incredibly hard to hit. Sorc is the easiest to hit but he just shrugs things off so easily due to various resistances. Sorc rarely actively participates in battle battle though. The standard strategy is Rogue hits hard then goes back to the shadows, casters disrupt or buff, and the paladin is large and in the enemies faces. Well, as large as a five foot, 110 lbs soaking wet elfess can be.

In another game our wizard (level 7) tanked the blue dragon. How? Absorb Elements and a literal death wish (for the character). And yet the old man was still tougher than old boot leather and kept surviving. The dragon wasted a full breath weapon on just him, blasting him into the floor, because he taunted the dragon about breaking one of his treasures. if the dice had rolled 2 higher, he'd have been completely, instantly dead, even with Absorb Elements.

[LudicSavant]

"That triceratops has only 13 AC. We'd better take care of it before that Fireball-slinging mage!"
- No PC ever.

When you don't know how to play an effective tank, what you often get is a turtle. Whether the turtle's shell is made out of HP or AC makes little difference.

The difference between a tank and a turtle is that a tank does not rely on enemies making a major tactical error to do their job. A turtle says "gee, I hope the enemy decides to attack me." A tank says "If you ignore me, you will lose."

[RickAllison]

Tank: Bear Totem 14+, Ancestral Guardians, a lot of Paladins
Turtle (with razor blades on the shell that spins): Bear Totem before 14, Zealot, Battlerager, a lot of Clerics
Soft Tank: Swashbuckler 9+, Long Death Monk 6+

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I maintain that wizards are the real tanks of D&D 5e: wide area debuffs that can be turned off by breaking concentration ought to draw a lot of fire from intelligent enemies.

That called BFC(Battlefield Control).
This is a different roll.

If my wizard is casting an important concentration spell you will never see him after the cast.
He will hide in a hole(preference to the shadow monk portable hole).

Unless he his abguration(I always confused when I write it) wizard.
My deep gnome wizard dropped grease, dragon breath and hide under the paladin, sanding his staff between the Paladin legs to cast firebolt or using non detection to cheese the ward.

Tank: Bear Totem 14+, Ancestral Guardians, a lot of Paladins
Turtle (with razor blades on the shell that spins): Bear Totem before 14, Zealot, Battlerager, a lot of Clerics
Soft Tank: Swashbuckler 9+, Long Death Monk 6+

You get +1 internet win

[HappyDaze]

"That triceratops has only 13 AC. We'd better take care of it before that Fireball-slinging mage!"
- No PC ever.

When you don't know how to play an effective tank, what you often get is a turtle. Whether the turtle's shell is made out of HP or AC makes little difference.

The difference between a tank and a turtle is that a tank does not rely on enemies making a major tactical error to do their job. A turtle says "gee, I hope the enemy decides to attack me." A tank says "If you ignore me, you will lose."

Reminds me of the 3.5 monk with some vow of non-violence or something. He thought he could go defensive and attract enemy attacks with his silly-high AC, but they just ignored him and walked by. If he attacked them, lots of his abilities collapsed, so he just danced around doing nothing while everyone else got killed.

[hamishspence]

"Vow of nonviolence" doesn't stop characters from attacking for nonlethal damage.

[RickAllison]

Reminds me of the 3.5 monk with some vow of non-violence or something. He thought he could go defensive and attract enemy attacks with his silly-high AC, but they just ignored him and walked by. If he attacked them, lots of his abilities collapsed, so he just danced around doing nothing while everyone else got killed.

If I wanted to do that in 5e, I'd go Long Death. "Fear. Fear. Fear. Still want to keep going?"

[BloodSnake'sCha]

"Vow of nonviolence" doesn't stop characters from attacking for nonlethal damage.

Maybe it was a vow of peace?

If I wanted to do that in 5e, I'd go Long Death. "Fear. Fear. Fear. Still want to keep going?"

The paladin, cleric with spells and a lot of fear immune monsters will just walk around you unfortunately.

In 3.5e you had ways to ignore those restrictions and immunities. 5e don't have the rules for it as it built differently from 3.5e(there is no real need for them in 5e).

[hamishspence]

Maybe it was a vow of peace?

Same limitations - only nonlethal violence is allowed - but it is allowed.

[HappyDaze]

Same limitations - only nonlethal violence is allowed - but it is allowed.

Don't recall exactly what it was > 10 years ago now, but we all made new characters including that player since we told him no one would adventure with a character like that again. Yep, the rest of the group voted him out. The DM just shrugged and went with it.

[Sception]

You have two jobs as a tank: control space, and manage the party's HP reserves. to do these things you need to be hard to hurt and harder to ignore. Low AC to temp enemies to attack you can contribute to this, but high hp isn't enough to offset that. For that strategy to work out you'll also need ways to reduce the incoming damage, like damage reduction (barbarian) or self-replenishing temp hp (fiendlock) or the like. Without something like that, easy to hit with lots of hp is just a drain on the healer's spell slots, which unlike in an mmo are limited per day.


But yeah, you do need something extra beyond being hard to bring down to make you difficult to ignore in order to be a tank and not a turtle. Lots of options out there, whether through spells, feats, or class features.


My favorite tank in 5e is conquest paladin, and their main thing is to inflict frighten on one or more foes with Wrathful Smite, Conquering Presence, or Fear, then move to bring enemies that fail their saves within range of Aura of Conquest. Such enemies now have disadvantage in attacks & checks, speed zero, and take damage every turn. Melee enemies can't move to target your allies at all, Ranged attackers can do so, but suffer disadvantage, and are generally desperate to deal with you first regardless.

You won't be able to lock down every enemy this way, but even just 1 to 3 will often be half or more of an encounter's fighting strength, breaking up the overall encounter into chunks that are easy for the rest of the party to chew on one at a time.

And if the entire enemy group is immune to frighten or passes their saves, the conqueror can still fall back on the standard paladin tanking kit - Bless (a major buff that enemies are often eager to bring down), Compelled Duel, powerful opportunity attacks (enhanced by Divine Smite, Sentinel Feat, or maybe Warcaster/Booming Blade if you multiclassed warlock or sorcerer), or just high smite damage targeted at the enemy leader. Your ability to play secondary healer outside of combat also helps mitigate hp reserves.


My second favorite 5e tank is Battlemaster with sentinel, polearm master, & tunnel fighter. Other fighter subclasses also work but note that cavalier specifically suffers some bad antisynergy here due to reach issues & bonus action economy. The combo also works for paladins in theory, but the dual feat combo is very taxing given the heavy pressure on paladin ability scores & asi's due to Madness & lacking the fighters bonus ASIs. Vumans can make it work, but it's still taxing.

The combo requires UA, & extremely old & deprecated UA content at that, so most DMs won't (& really shouldn't) allow it, but if yours does then unlimited, movement-cancelling opportunity attacks against enemies crossing the perimeter of a 25' diameter control zone in either direction is pretty amazing.

[Mitsu]

When I play a tank I play a Sorcadin (Hexsorcadin most of the time).

I walk straight into the enemies smiting and if I can with spirit guardians/Bless and far step.

I chase the enemy casters and make sure it will be hard for them to cast.

Most of the time I get 8-12 enemies on me(trying to save the leader/caster).

As a paladin it is hard to fail saves and I have a lot of HP(upcast Aid).
Most of my characters look for a clock of displacement and +x shield/armor/weapon (I like warhammers).

Nobody ignore the block of metal if he is at range and killing you friends while cursing your god.

I agree with that. Being tank in DnD 5e is not being a spoonge that deals no damage and pose no threat. Enemies will simply ignore you. However if you are high AC, high HP block of metal that start it's turn with fireball into enemies, only to rush their leader and 2-shot him with smites - then suddenly you are the target number 1 of enemies. You don't want threat like that to repeat it's havoc next turn.

Hence why I also agree that Srocadins are probably best tanks. You can't ignore a guy with +5 to saves, huge AC, huge burst damage who can also hypnotic pattern/fireball your guys or walk in the middle of you with Spirit Guardians up. Ignore a guy like that and fight is over sooner or later.

So long story short- if you want to be a tank - pose a threat that will make enemies want to kill you first.

So best tanks for me are:
- Redemption Paladin with Spirit Guardians/1 hexblade level for Shield spell
- Sorcadins with Divine Soul and spirit guardians (also shield spell)
- EK/wizards with their huge DPR (also shield spell)
- Arcana, Tempest and Froge Clerics
- Zealot Barbarians with GWM and Champion 3 levels.

You want to be a tank- make enemies regret ignoring you.

[stoutstien]

The most important factor in playing a character that draws the majority of the enemies' ire is DM meta. No amount of features a player can pick can prevent a DM from circumventing them if they wish.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'm going to agree with many of the posters here. As a martial it's sometimes very difficult to tank.

Not because of your durability, you're a walking ball of muscle and grit. Not because of your AC, you're a walking suit of armor with a bit extra layered on top for good measure. No, the issue is that there isn't often an effective way to generate more threat than your casters.

You can be the biggest beef cake of a Bearbarian but if you haven't invested in tools to stop the enemies from focusing your Wizard (who likely has half or even a third of your hit points, ignoring your effective HP as a Raging Bear Totem) then you're likely to survive the encounter down one spellcaster. This is why I maintain that Paladin (in one of its many forms but most notably Conquest or Sorcadin) is the most generally effective tank you can be, as it allows you to generate that threat against intelligent enemies without compromising your ability to also prevent them from reaching your backline.

That's not to say that Bearbarian isn't still king in the mitigation tanking front, it's just that if you don't build them with tools to prevent enemies from leaving your range and ignoring you(sentinel, grappling, dipping battlemaster for tripping/disarming attack) then you can only be so much of a threat before they realize that robed man behind you has cast a buffing spell on you and killing him first will likely make you easier to deal with by proxy.

The most important factor in playing a character that draws the majority of the enemies' ire is DM meta. No amount of features a player can pick can prevent a DM from circumventing them if they wish.

Yep, this about sums up my point. Paladin offers more tools in general than a Barbarian does in discouraging the DM from picking on your casters but it really boils down into how intent your DM is on picking on them. If your caster has painted a large enough target on their backs the DM will find a way. Then you just break out the Redemption/Crown Paladin and casually take all of the damage that would have been done to your caster as a support character.

I also think Glamour Bard makes a decent tank. If there was ever a way to paint a huge target on your back it would be adopting a supernaturally beautiful form and ordering all enemies to spit shine your boots. They either fall for the command or hate your guts (your face is too beautiful to hate) for trying it on them. The only issue with Glamour Bard is surviving the hits after you draw so much attention.

[Nidgit]

Tanks don't have to be a direct "threat" to function effectively, they just need to impede attacks against the rest of the party enough to make themselves a priority for the enemy. A Cleric often isn't the biggest offensive threat but its bevy of support spells can make it a major nuisance to enemies. Combine with good AC and most Clerics make excellent tanks.

Likewise, a Champion and a Paladin can both have a high damage output and high AC, but the Paladin's Auras and support spells protect the rest of the party better and therefore generally make it the superior tank.

The two basic components for a tank are establishing themselves as a priority target for enemies and then mitigating the consequential damage. There are multiple ways to accomplish each of those two goals.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I also think Glamour Bard makes a decent tank. If there was ever a way to paint a huge target on your back it would be adopting a supernaturally beautiful form and ordering all enemies to spit shine your boots. They either fall for the command or hate your guts (your face is too beautiful to hate) for trying it on them. The only issue with Glamour Bard is surviving the hits after you draw so much attention.

I have to say that my Lore bard is great at drawing attacks.

I use the ready action to lunch spells in the right time and a lot of concentration battlefield control spells.
(We are level 6, just got there so the example is from level 5)

Spoiler: an example

Show

Our berbarian with blackrazor jumped into the enemies big guns after I timed a nice faire fire on them.
The enemy heavy armor dude attacked me with a level 4 spell.
I lost concentration and moved back(he made hard terrain that saved me from his goblins) and readied a dissonant whispers for the time he act(he used shield on his turn and I wanted to burn his reaction and make him proc an AOO from the BB roguadin and barbarian that was near him.
His goblins dropped the swords in order to attack me with bows to stop me from casting.

He killed himself with a fireball aimed on everyone but me(I ran away from the enemies before reading the spell).

He didn't wanted to be a living prisoner (we were hunting information).

My bard have 12 con and 16 AC(got hand on a +1 studded leather with disguise self as a free action, some Homebrew stuff. The enemies are also Homebrew and a lot stronger deadlier from normal. We are playing with combat as war but with rare combats and a lot of RP).

[Gignere]

Tanking in 5e / D&D in general is a group effort. Squishies need to learn how to position. Always find cover when you’re done casting, stand in a position that requires enemies to wade through multiple OAs to get to you. Wear a disguise, like a hat of disguise make it look like you’re a full plate wearing tank.

My elven wizard found a set of elven chain and a +1 long sword no one wanted. I held (note held not don) a shield and looked as martial and tanky as anyone. Remember wizards don’t need a pointy hat or a robe to use his spells.

Played correctly a wizard should be the hardest if not impossible target to be hit everytime the DM’s turn comes up. In fact the best played wizard can basically ignore hp or even AC stats because not allowing for an attack roll is better than having high hp or AC.

This forces the enemies to only attack the targets that are around and generally those are the tanks.

[ProsecutorGodot]

My elven wizard found a set of elven chain and a +1 long sword no one wanted. I held (note held not don) a shield and looked as martial and tanky as anyone. Remember wizards don’t need a pointy hat or a robe to use his spells.

Saying you're holding a shield in a manner that is convincing enemies that you're able to use it and not actually being considered to be "wielding" it is incredibly gamey, I certainly wouldn't approve of such a thing.

That aside, I agree with your sentiments. I actually designed my Paladin initially to appear as a more appealing target. He became pretty feeble looking due to a botched resurrection but he's as hardy as he ever has been.

When he came in, I introduced him as a feeble looking old man dressed in simple robes with a crystal walking cane. His shield is battered and wrapped in cloth. What wasn't apparent was that he was wielding a staff of defense and the shield was perfectly usable, even magical. With all of his extra AC bits he was sitting comfortable at a 20 AC even though he appeared almost completely unarmored.

[RickAllison]

Maybe it was a vow of peace?



The paladin, cleric with spells and a lot of fear immune monsters will just walk around you unfortunately.

In 3.5e you had ways to ignore those restrictions and immunities. 5e don't have the rules for it as it built differently from 3.5e(there is no real need for them in 5e).

I didn't say it would be a good option :P Playing a fully pacifist character is hard, playing a fully pacifist tank even moreso. If it's level 9, you could go Swashbuckler instead; it doesn't let you do much in a solo boss fight, but it can hold back a troublesome enemy while the party clears out the mooks, plus the skill use of a Rogue means you can hopefully find alternative ways to spend your turn than attacking.

Another option could be a Mastermind Rogue, especially with the UA Historian feat. Just spend your turns Helping two allies at once. I am especially fond of phrases like, "Follow the example of Kush-lan, the Eviscerator of the Third Century! Kick him in the crotch and run!"

[stoutstien]

I didn't say it would be a good option :P Playing a fully pacifist character is hard, playing a fully pacifist tank even moreso. If it's level 9, you could go Swashbuckler instead; it doesn't let you do much in a solo boss fight, but it can hold back a troublesome enemy while the party clears out the mooks, plus the skill use of a Rogue means you can hopefully find alternative ways to spend your turn than attacking.

Another option could be a Mastermind Rogue, especially with the UA Historian feat. Just spend your turns Helping two allies at once. I am especially fond of phrases like, "Follow the example of Kush-lan, the Eviscerator of the Third Century! Kick him in the crotch and run!"

Masterminds is proof that if you have flavor that's good enough people will play it regardless of how powerful it is. 😀

[RickAllison]

Masterminds is proof that if you have flavor that's good enough people will play it regardless of how powerful it is. 😀

Every time I see it, I ask myself why I keep forgetting to play one even though I love it so much. I get super distracted when it comes to concepts, but I love the Mastermind so much.