Sauron vs Voldemort

[Ditto]

I have not ignored the splatbooks, Deadmeat. I have freely admitted that my knowledge of Tolkien beyond the trilogy and solicited input on abilities beyond my knowledge.

It makes no sense for Voldemort to walk up to an opponent from a different universe and try to flash reputation, a social construction that requires a population to back it up. Further, please cite an example where Voldemort/his team engages in battle without firing a single shot and cowing the opponent. I'm not certain what you're referencing. Not firing on an underestimated teenage who's holding a valuable item in his hand is very different from not firing at an advancing army or Wicked Kewl Evil General.

The digging lava tactic was admittedly farfetched. Another example of general points getting discounted when a very specific aspect of that idea is discounted. It followed thusly, though: Sauron can be crushed. Sauron can take falling damage. Sauron can be crushed while taking falling damage. ("But rocks won't be enough!") If Sauron keeps trying to climb out of the hole, then dig the hole deeper. If you want to keep going, you'll eventually hit lava. The objections required an unnecessary level of detail, and that's the absurd part.

Please name any other specific tactic that Voldemort & co. or another wizard of their proficiency did not use in the books that I did use for the purposes of this thread. Still.

You're right on that last point, though. Voldemort fails at strategy in every way. He never won a battle, nor did he take over an entire country's government covertly and hold said country in perpetual terror at even the sound of his name, much less what might happen if he appeared. [/sarcasm]

[dehro]

ok, that's it...

everybody down on the floor!!

I'm going to unleash

Spoiler

Show

..upon him!!

[Ditto]

O come on guyz, you kno that VOldemort would just come in and Avada Kadavra both of them dead. LOLZ

>_>

[Rowanomicon]

It makes no sense for Voldemort to walk up to...

You are correct. Many of Voldemort's "tactics" make no sense to logical, thinking beings such as ourselves.

Please name any other specific tactic that Voldemort & co. or another wizard of their proficiency did not use in the books that I did use for the purposes of this thread. Still.

Come now, Ditto, that's not fair:
"Find me some examples."
"OK, you found some example, find more."

[Ditto]

Which part of the 'not get hit' is a bad idea?

And congrats, you've caught me in a literal reading of the question posed. I spelled out how I agree that the lava thing was way down a line of discussion that had little bearing on the original question - and that proving it was ridiculous does not invalidate the entire argument. That was one bizarre way to kill Sauron personally. Are the rest of the tactics so incredibly unfounded? I still don't know why folks objected to 'Don't get hit, apparate lots' as the first rule. When I ask for 'any other specific tactic', I'm asking that you toss out one of the allegedly lengthy list of things that I, Ditto, have developed in my time as commandant of Merlin's Battle Academy. If you want to dismiss methods that actually work because they came solely from my brain, then *that's* what I'd like to see cited. I can back things up, if you'd only pull the list from behind the accusations...

[EvilElitest]

You are correct. Many of Voldemort's "tactics" make no sense to logical, thinking beings such as ourselves.



Come now, Ditto, that's not fair:
"Find me some examples."
"OK, you found some example, find more."

nicely done, i see you are holding your own. Hey Rowanomicon, who i consider a good friend and comrade, can you join us at the Sauron vs. Lich king thread? It is much more of a challenge
more help is always needed, me, random soilder, Exacutor, and warty goblin will be happy (well i can't really speak for them but you know what i mean)
and ditto, come on, take saruon's side

You know you want to
from,
EE

[Rowanomicon]

I'll be there as soon as I can. Also it would be awesome to see Ditto argue for Sauron in a different thread.

[EvilElitest]

I'll be there as soon as I can. Also it would be awesome to see Ditto argue for Sauron in a different thread.

Horray

Come on ditto, argue for Sauron, have a group of allies to back you this time. Think of it this way, who would voldemort rather lose to, the LK or Sauron?

You know you want to.........
from,
EE

[Artemician]

Horray

Come on ditto, argue for Sauron, have a group of allies to back you this time. Think of it this way, who would voldemort rather lose to, the LK or Sauron?

You know you want to.........
from,
EE

Frankly, the LK would crush Voldemort's puny mind like a raisin, in the same way that Sauron does so. Only more stylishly: he'll be playing his guitar while he does it.

[EvilElitest]

Frankly, the LK would crush Voldemort's puny mind like a raisin, in the same way that Sauron does so. Only more stylishly: he'll be playing his guitar while he does it.

I imagine dream world must be a fun place, i can see you hanging out there a lot
from
EE

[Ditto]

Sorry, can't say I know anything at all about WoW. I like Sauron just fine, though. He's nigh-unbeatable in LOTR terms. I just don't think it's possible to pit HP magic and LOTR magic against each other and ever get a result that's to everyone's satisfaction.

Also, he smells bad. (I have a theory that that abomination aura of his consists entirely of B.O.)

[EvilElitest]

Sorry, can't say I know anything at all about WoW. I like Sauron just fine, though. He's nigh-unbeatable in LOTR terms. I just don't think it's possible to pit HP magic and LOTR magic against each other and ever get a result that's to everyone's satisfaction.

Also, he smells bad. (I have a theory that that abomination aura of his consists entirely of B.O.)

but we need you to argue for sauron, imagine the possiblities


you know you want to

from,
EE

[Eerie]

Voldemorts apparates before Sauron and Avada Kedavra`s him. Instant death, no defence spells against it in LotR universe.

One Maiar less. People of Middle-Earth rejoice. End of story.

[warty goblin]

Voldemorts apparates before Sauron and Avada Kedavra`s him. Instant death, no defence spells against it in LotR universe.

One Maiar less. People of Middle-Earth rejoice. End of story.

Oh. Dear. Melkor. In. Exile.

Read the last 38 pages then come back and tell me in your honest opinion, given the evidence presented, that this is possible. For starters:

1) Maiar can't be killed, at least not if they're not balrogs. Sauron is not a balrog. Hence Sauron cannot be killed.
2) Magic fails around Sauron. There's only one record of a spell functioning at all like it should against him. That spell was a sleep spell cast by Luthein Tinuviel at Sauron and was potent enough to send a god to sleep. It made Sauron stagger a bit. Every other spell fails or is blocked.
3) I am done.

[EvilElitest]

funny thing about this thread, all the ethusiatic saruon supporters are migrating to the Lich king vs. sauron thread, because it is accually challenging there. Please join us ditto
from,
EE

[Ditto]

1) Maiar can't be killed, at least if they're not balrogs? Wait, Killable = Balrogs = Maiar... so 'Maiar' is not 'Automatically immortal and unkillable'. Slight hole in the definition that was left out over the last few dozen pages. (Still not relevant in Sauron's case, of course, but still.)
2) Magic doesn't Fail around Sauron by definition, Sauron blocks or counters it. Don't go mixing words up again!
3) ...still, Eerie, come back when you're up to speed on things.
4) I heart WG.

Sweet pitch, EE. "Everyone went to another thread, because your argument sucks. Join us, you're cool!"

[Executor]

Well still Ditto, Sauron has an anti-magic field. Gandalf, who is supposed to be the most powerful being in Middle-earth save Sauron, couldn't do a damn thing at the Black Gate, several hundred miles north of Barad-dur. The Phial of Galadriel, which contained the concentrated light of Earendil's star, or the concentrated light of a Silmaril, was put out permanently by being at Mount Doom. And Sauron wasn't even aware that he was putting out the Phial.

[EvilElitest]

1) Maiar can't be killed, at least if they're not balrogs? Wait, Killable = Balrogs = Maiar... so 'Maiar' is not 'Automatically immortal and unkillable'. Slight hole in the definition that was left out over the last few dozen pages. (Still not relevant in Sauron's case, of course, but still.)
2) Magic doesn't Fail around Sauron by definition, Sauron blocks or counters it. Don't go mixing words up again!
3) ...still, Eerie, come back when you're up to speed on things.
4) I heart WG.

No, Balrogs gave up their immortailty for power. Along with some of the lesser Malar. Sauron never did, one of the reasons for the ring

Sweet pitch, EE. "Everyone went to another thread, because your argument sucks. Join us, you're cool!"

No, i'm just saying this thread has come to "Beating a dead horse point"
Beat a living horse, come to the LK vs. Sauorn thread, out horses are undead and quite beatable with not yet redundent points

And if i thought you argument totally sucked, i wouldn't be inviting you would I?
answer me honestly, is their as single point mentions sense i stop posting that hasn't been mentioned before?
Hell, you can do both threads
from,
EE

[Ossian]

Oh. Dear. Melkor. In. Exile.

So simple, yet he makes me cry rivers for too much laughter everytime.

[Rowanomicon]

Well still Ditto, Sauron has an anti-magic field. Gandalf, who is supposed to be the most powerful being in Middle-earth save Sauron, couldn't do a damn thing at the Black Gate, several hundred miles north of Barad-dur. The Phial of Galadriel, which contained the concentrated light of Earendil's star, or the concentrated light of a Silmaril, was put out permanently by being at Mount Doom. And Sauron wasn't even aware that he was putting out the Phial.

Good point; I didn't think about that.
If Sauron was stopping/negating the magic (even after it already existed) without even knowing it then it must be an AMF rather than specific countering or blocking.

Therefore if we assume transparency between magic system it would do the same to HP magic. If we say that super powerful casters can still get a fraction of their effect then for arguments sake (in other words so everyone agrees that is *fair*) then only Voldemort can cast and everything is at half effect.

I think this is more than he could do, but this is just for arguments sake.
I think we can all agree that V et co are screwed under these conditions.

[EvilElitest]

Hey rowan, are you still on the LK vs. Sauron thread, haven't seen you for a whlie

And a question, what would AK be at half effect? Or the teleportation
It is admitted to be a risky procces, one that can cost you your limbs if done under pressure (like nazgul fear) and if it isn't working correctly

Remember, when Ron's wand was broken in the second book, would all spells work like that
from,
EE

[Ditto]

That nullifying effect comes from Sauron's long residence in the place, not Sauron himself. Otherwise magic could never, ever be used against him, which it obviously has. At the Black Gate, weren't Sauron/His Mouth actively dueling with Gandalf?

If the Balrogs gave up immortality for power, they got gypped. But that can't be, since y'all avowed long ago that it was not possible for an immortal such as a Maiar to become mortal...

You keep saying transparency, when you mean 'LOTR magic works in spite of the HP prohibitions that, by defintion, prevent it from working in principle'. There's no such thing as a magic dead zone in HP. You can ward an area against this or that kind of magic, but there's no such thing as a nullo field, period. I'd say if we were to assume transparency, then clearly there's no such thing as a nullo field. (See what happened there?) On the last point, I'm not sure what half-strength would mean for most spells either. Whatever Sauron's anti-magic abilities might be, they have a big asterisk - "Unless you really want to."

[turkishproverb]

That nullifying effect comes from Sauron's long residence in the place, not Sauron himself. Otherwise magic could never, ever be used against him, which it obviously has. At the Black Gate, weren't Sauron/His Mouth actively dueling with Gandalf?

If the Balrogs gave up immortality for power, they got gypped. But that can't be, since y'all avowed long ago that it was not possible for an immortal such as a Maiar to become mortal...

Sillmerillion. That was made so AFTER the balrogs defected and gave up their immortality.

[Ditto]

Hm, what's that now?

[The_Snark]

That nullifying effect comes from Sauron's long residence in the place, not Sauron himself. Otherwise magic could never, ever be used against him, which it obviously has. At the Black Gate, weren't Sauron/His Mouth actively dueling with Gandalf?

... No? The Mouth was the envoy, but he didn't actually appear in the battle. Sauron and company figured they didn't need to bother. Gandalf did not, in fact, use magic at the Black Gate. Courtesy of Sauron's willpower (plus it being on the borders of his realm).

You keep saying transparency, when you mean 'LOTR magic works in spite of the HP prohibitions that, by defintion, prevent it from working in principle'. There's no such thing as a magic dead zone in HP. You can ward an area against this or that kind of magic, but there's no such thing as a nullo field, period. I'd say if we were to assume transparency, then clearly there's no such thing as a nullo field. (See what happened there?) On the last point, I'm not sure what half-strength would mean for most spells either. Whatever Sauron's anti-magic abilities might be, they have a big asterisk - "Unless you really want to."

Yes, but... you have to beat out Sauron in a contest of wills, which is arguably what he does best.

I'm not sure why HP magic's "there are no null-magic fields" rule would trump any other setting's "there are null-magic fields", either. Would not the definitive presence of something* win out over an absence that's never talked about?

*Not that Sauron's interference with magic is actually a null-magic field, although the effects are similar. Just a theoretical argument, here.

[EvilElitest]

1. The Mouth of Sauron had a battle of wills with gandalf and lost
2. If sauron can oppress magic without even thinking about, extremlty powerful magic, and all sources indicate his power is greater when you are close to him, that indicates that he has super anti magic
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

Uh, yeah, transparency doesn't mean that one trumps the other. It means they both work. However Sauron has the power to make magic not work. What we (or at least I) mean by transparency is that Sauron could affect HP magic the same way he could affect Tolkien magic.

Note how that is not ridiculous where as what you suggested is.

I'm not certain what half-strength spells would do either. We saw a sleep spell stagger Sauron slightly. Any way you cut it it's bad news for Voldy.

Also I'm a little confused on the whole Balrog thing too...

In terms of mortality in Tolkien's works I was under the impression that everything fell into set categories:

1) Mortal and when you die your spirit goes to somewhere that only Eru knows (eg. Men)

2) Immortal (unaging), but killable and when you die your spirit goes to the undying land. It is then possible (though generally not done) to return to Middle Earth. (eg. Elves, Gandalf when he took mortal form)

3) Truly immortal where you are the incarnation of a divine spirit and unkillable for you simply exist. (eg. Maiar)

I'm not sure where Dwarves, Hobbits, or "mortal" Balrogs fit in...
My guess would be that Dwarves and Hobbits are the same as Men, but I doubt that Balrogs could become that even if they wanted to (since only Eru knows of that place).

EDIT: Yeah, I'm trying to keep up with the LK vs Sauron thread, but haven't had the time to read it all and post for a bit.

[Ditto]

I overstated the null-magic transparency thing. Apologies for the overreaction-prompting-ness thereof.

'Sauron's ability works the same way in HP now the same as it does in LOTR'
-> 'Sauron's ability cannot exist in HP.'
-> 'Sauron's ability works exactly the same in HP, except that it doesn't exist.

I understand the idea that Sauron's universe's rules carry over, but HP's universe does not support blanket negation of magic. It isn't there. Therefore, I would not assume someone who can do It could do It in a universe where It has no meaning.

Consider: AK cannot be blocked by magic, period. If you stand in front of it and eat it, you're dead. LOTR magic can be blocked (or more importantly, counterspell-pre-blocked) because it is derived from force of will, and a sufficiently strong-willed individual can stop or diffuse anything, period. What happens if a superthinky human (say you give Aragorn the Ring, for simplicity's sake) stares down an AK bolt? I'd argue it hits him, the end. You'd probably say... it doesn't, because he doesn't want to. (Aggressively.) There are certain absolutes which really can't be reconciled.

[turkishproverb]

You know, I don't think Ditto was Bugbear in the playground when this thread started....

How many posts is that now?

Hm, what's that now?

I was explaining how a blarog could be Axed. Context man, context!

[Ditto]

Nah, I've been a bugbear for some time now. This thread has made up the single largest portion of my postcount, though, I'm certain. Looks like about 160. Actually, I believe I'm on the verge of becoming an Ogre. Rawr.

'Prophet', Rowan. And if you're officially a god now, doesn't that mean you outrank Sauron? /

TP - I didn't catch the middle of the sentence you were coming in on, I see now. The balrogs still got the short end of the 'ultimate cosmic power!' stick.