So who else is sure a LOTR TV show will suck?

[Avilan the Grey]

Basically I trust the idea of a LOTR TV show to be awful in every. single. way.

Now, I would be more interested in some other Tolkien property. Especially the Silmarillion as a TV show.

[Seppl]

Yeah, there are three reasons I was not excited when I heard the announcement:

1. It will most probably try way too hard to imitate either the LOTR movies or the Game of Thrones TV series, because those two were very successful adaptions of similar works. But a tone like in Game of Thrones would not fit Tolkien's works in the slightest, one could even say that GoT tries very hard to not be like LOTR. On the other hand, the LOTR movies will be very hard to measure up to. Everyone saw what happened to The Hobbit movies, which tried to be another LOTR and failed.

2. They chose to make a prequel. Not a prequel set far in the past like the Silmarillion but a prequel set in the years just before the start of the movies. That means that we will probably get all the usual prequel problems: In the end, everything has to be in the place it was when the movies begin (for example, there will be no suspense if anything appearing in the movies is in danger), and there will most likely be plenty of inept connections between the series and the movies (see: 'Darth Vader built C3PO!').

3. The time period of the series is almost completely unexplored by Tolkien's works. That means, the writers have almost no restrictions regarding the plot. While this may be a good thing, it most likely is not. Remember what happened to the writing quality of GoT after the plot went off the rails set by the books? The writers preferred brainless spectacle and shock value over internal logic and the themes set by the books. Maybe that is what sells better, but surely it is not what I would like to see.

Silmarillion might have been good, but it would require a lot of competent rewriting before an adaption. Maybe cherry-pick one of the more coherent standalone stories, like the Children of Hurin. A lot of the other parts have story elements that may work as a collection of Elvish sagas but would not work in a modern day TV show. Too much magic, too much involvement of literal gods, to much Elvish genealogy.

[Reddish Mage]

Actually, TV would be the perfect medium to do deep exploration my favorite part of Lord of the Rings: the Hobbits. They had there best adventures when they were left alone and had to go do some side quests on their own.

That, and the Shire was a lot more interesting place than the LOTR had time for (and The Hobbit did it no justice by deciding us to show us the entire dinner party uncut 45 minutes).

A LOTR series would have time for Bilbo’s birthday bash, the adventure out of the Shire, after it suddenly became a dangerous place. The Barrow-Wraiths. The sheer terror of the Hobbits being hunted just as their protectors leave them, and that’s all before they get to Rivendale.

This is not a show for “LOTR the slow version,” that can show all that side content during the War of the Ring, but a show about Hobbits getting mixed up in adventures and having to resort to their simple skills and folksy wisdom to survive would be a winner.

[Zevox]

Basically I trust the idea of a LOTR TV show to be awful in every. single. way.

Now, I would be more interested in some other Tolkien property. Especially the Silmarillion as a TV show.

I don't know, I'd almost be more skeptical of doing The Silmarillion for TV. I mean, maybe you could pull off select stories from it, like Beren and Luthien or Turin Turambar, but even those will require explaining a lot of backstory and mythology. And won't seem to have a heck of a lot to do with LotR to the casual audience, since it is ancient history and all.

Trying to do the whole thing though would definitely strike me as unlikely to work out well. Tracing the whole history of a world from creation through a series of mythology-like events and a great war doesn't seem like the sort of thing you could really film effectively.

[Aotrs Commander]

Eeeeeeh. I'd not realised what the other thread was about (I just assumed that it meant the movies or something). But...

On the one hand, we could get something like the recent Shaodw of Mordor games which so completely miss the entire point of the work its not funny. (Also Shelob had to be sexed up.) Whcih would indeed be vile, and seems more likely than anything else.



On the other hand... Middle-Earth has been a fertile ground for RPGs for decades. Indeed, one of the two quests (both in Rolemaster) which I remember most fondly - and for that matter the very first RPG I played down at the wargames club when I started roleplaying PERIOD - were set in Middle-Earth. (The latter was even a prequel: the party sneaking into Mount Gundabad to destroy Grond (the early prototype, I think, though it might have been called Grond II - the original Grond being Morgoth's hammer of course (we are going back twenty-five years).)

So it would be hypocritical in the highest of me to say that it would be impossible to tell good, great or fantasic stories on Middle-Earth outside the books.


Now, whether that is what we will GET is the biggest question.

[Lord Joeltion]

I don't know, I'd almost be more skeptical of doing The Silmarillion for TV. I mean, maybe you could pull off select stories from it, like Beren and Luthien or Turin Turambar, but even those will require explaining a lot of backstory and mythology. And won't seem to have a heck of a lot to do with LotR to the casual audience, since it is ancient history and all.

Trying to do the whole thing though would definitely strike me as unlikely to work out well. Tracing the whole history of a world from creation through a series of mythology-like events and a great war doesn't seem like the sort of thing you could really film effectively.

But the juicy part of the "Silmarillion" is in fact the Silmaril Wars. It's what gives the name of the book after all. And it's more than you need to make a proper series: The life of Feanor. You don't need to tell the whole Old Testament to tell the story of Christ. Or to know the Titanomachy to read about the life and deeds of Hercules. Most of the book is about how Feanor ruined the world and why (and how it all finally derailed into the Lotr saga).

Arguably, Beren and Luthien is more like a side story of the book, something that also reflects in the Lotr. That should be a spin-off

[Nemirthel]

Actually, TV would be the perfect medium to do deep exploration my favorite part of Lord of the Rings: the Hobbits. They had there best adventures when they were left alone and had to go do some side quests on their own.

That, and the Shire was a lot more interesting place than the LOTR had time for (and The Hobbit did it no justice by deciding us to show us the entire dinner party uncut 45 minutes).

A LOTR series would have time for Bilbo’s birthday bash, the adventure out of the Shire, after it suddenly became a dangerous place. The Barrow-Wraiths. The sheer terror of the Hobbits being hunted just as their protectors leave them, and that’s all before they get to Rivendale.

This is not a show for “LOTR the slow version,” that can show all that side content during the War of the Ring, but a show about Hobbits getting mixed up in adventures and having to resort to their simple skills and folksy wisdom to survive would be a winner.

While I agree with all of this, I'm not expecting much from the show. There's a lot of material they could use to make a great show- or they could show Aragorn killing trolls with his bare hands. And Gandalf doing flashy magic that there definitely wasn't a reason he didn't do in the books! And they're going to throw in sex scenes that are completely out of character and make no sense chronologically.

They could make a good show, but I seriously doubt that they'll actually do so. They'll put all the effort into making it look good with no attention paid to the plot, and certainly none to making it compatible with the books.

[2D8HP]

If it's on real free broadcast television that my antenna may pick up instead of some newfangeled malarkey like cable or whatever medium Star Trek Discovery is (hates "streaming" forevuh!!!), and it's on a time that I may actually watch it (instead of at work or sleeping), then it will be the greatest thing evuh!!!, otherwise it will probably be awful and I wouldn't want to watch it anyway.

[Leecros]

I can't really buy into the idea that the show will be sure to suck. We have seen literally nothing for it yet. Do i expect it to suck? Yes, but I'm not going to make that conclusion before even giving them the chance to show me what they've got.

There are reasons why it might not suck. Some of them have already been mentioned. I think the bigger problem with the series is going to be on a viewership level.

Let's assume that the TV show doesn't suck and it doesn't die horribly in a fire. They're going to have two different kinds of people that are going to make up a large portion of their audience.

The first group is the hardcore group of Tolkien fans who want them to stay as far away from any of the works put down on paper and stay in their own little uncharted area. Perhaps make a few references to the books to make it feel like it's in the same setting, but nothing much more and NO cameos(That means you Legolas! Shoo).

Then they're going to have another group of people that is also pretty sizable that will want them to ride the LOTR and Hobbit films more than Lord of the Rings: The Third Age did.

These two groups are mostly mutually exclusive and pretty sizable. That's ignoring a third group of people who don't want a TV series to be made at all, or are automatically assuming it's going to be awful, because let's be honest: That group isn't going to be satisfied regardless.

So they're already fighting an uphill battle in the ratings department and regardless of how good or bad a series is...The ratings and viewership is what will ultimately determine its fate. Not the quality of the series.


Personally? I'm a simple man. If the series delivers a decent story and sexy elves Decent Characters. Then I will be satisfied.

[Avilan the Grey]

Well my reasons for thinking it will suck (yes, they are speculation and assumtions based on well... how TV works):

1. It will skip over tons of things I want to see filmed.
2. It will prolong and stretch things I find irrelevant.
3. It will invent things to make new episodes, and do it badly.
4. It will, after it becoems a hit and is renewed, either stretch the last third of the story forever, over 2-3 seasons just to millk money and then realize viewers have dropped off and cancel the show either without a finale or having the writers panic-write a finale in 3 weeks.
5. OR they will do "new content" after the first season, where some hack is inventing the story of "what happened in the 5 years after the fall of Sauron".

Those are my main assumtions of how this will go. I bet I get 4 out of 5 right.

[Leecros]

1. It will skip over tons of things I want to see filmed.
2. It will prolong and stretch things I find irrelevant.
3. It will invent things to make new episodes, and do it badly.
4. It will, after it becoems a hit and is renewed, either stretch the last third of the story forever, over 2-3 seasons just to millk money and then realize viewers have dropped off and cancel the show either without a finale or having the writers panic-write a finale in 3 weeks.
5. OR they will do "new content" after the first season, where some hack is inventing the story of "what happened in the 5 years after the fall of Sauron".

1. We already know it's going to be a prequel to LOTR during a period that isn't well documented. We also know that there are creative restrictions imposed on them. We don't know exactly what those restrictions are, but we can guess. They're probably not allowed to cover any events that were covered by the books. So I'm not sure exactly what you'll want to see.
2.Probably, but that's a problem with any show, film, or book.
3.Since they have restrictions in place, They're going to have to come up with new things. Whether they're good things or bad things. Time will tell.
4. I think at this point the safe bet is on it not becoming a hit show. There's too much anxiety revolving around even the idea of making a TV series and more ways they can mess it up than do it well.
5. Since they're starting as a LOTR prequel. It'd be a pretty ballsy decision to skip ahead to the end of Lord of the Rings for the aftermath. I think at worst what they'll do is try to go through the War of the Ring without actually showing any of it. That would depend on them putting the setting in some region that didn't get much direct involvement in the major events of the war, but still had a bad time.

They could also do some weird alt-history stuff, but I wouldn't see that going well at all.

Those are my main assumtions of how this will go. I bet I get 4 out of 5 right.

I would say 2 or 3 out of 5, but I'm not a betting man. We don't know exactly what they plan on doing yet, so guessing about it is sheer speculation and is going to be hit and miss.

[Hopeless]

How about they focus on how they forced the Necromancer out prior to the start of the Hobbit?
Have the Wizard introduced in the movie have him recruit help to investigate the sudden influx of dark powers eventually calling in Gandalf who in return for help such as summoning the Eagles but only when the need is dire.
We have a first season showing how things are getting worse and have frequent deaths since most aren't named characters much would be revealed offscreen since that would be scarier wouldn't it?
Have the season one climax involve a spider infestation forcing them from their village, our wizard saves as many as he can with our season 2 heroes being amongst them.
Season 2 eventually leads back to that castle with a nasty ambush with only a couple surviving where none did before learning of a dwarven prisoner.
End of this season introduce Gandalf who is curious to find out about that dwarf.
Season 3 eventually reveals who the Necromancer is forcing the big 3 or whoever to help Gandalf drive Sauron out.

Character wise we need a Hobbit related to Bilbo to explain why Gandalf selected him I figure whoever this was died rescuing him from the Necromancer and Gandalf believes he's important possibly because he was responsible for forcing Sauron to flee?

Does this sound a good idea to you?

[BannedInSchool]

The SilmFilm guys did unsurprisingly talk about the Amazon TV series. One thing they brought up was that when the Jackson films were announced many people did think they'd suck and they're not dumpster fires. There was even the opinion that a TV series could be better because you wouldn't necessarily be forced to cut parts of the story and invent a pointless action scene because the movie beats call for it.

Other thoughts they had on the Amazon series is that if they're doing a prequel they could start with the war of the Last Alliance and cover the whole Third Age, or start with the Istari arriving.

[Talakeal]

How about they focus on how they forced the Necromancer out prior to the start of the Hobbit?
Have the Wizard introduced in the movie have him recruit help to investigate the sudden influx of dark powers eventually calling in Gandalf who in return for help such as summoning the Eagles but only when the need is dire.
We have a first season showing how things are getting worse and have frequent deaths since most aren't named characters much would be revealed offscreen since that would be scarier wouldn't it?
Have the season one climax involve a spider infestation forcing them from their village, our wizard saves as many as he can with our season 2 heroes being amongst them.
Season 2 eventually leads back to that castle with a nasty ambush with only a couple surviving where none did before learning of a dwarven prisoner.
End of this season introduce Gandalf who is curious to find out about that dwarf.
Season 3 eventually reveals who the Necromancer is forcing the big 3 or whoever to help Gandalf drive Sauron out.

Character wise we need a Hobbit related to Bilbo to explain why Gandalf selected him I figure whoever this was died rescuing him from the Necromancer and Gandalf believes he's important possibly because he was responsible for forcing Sauron to flee?

Does this sound a good idea to you?

It could work except this was mostly covered in the Hobbit movies and I dont think they want to retread the movies.

[Jay R]

I agree with all the concerns. But there are also some intriguing stories to flesh out.

Gandalf thought Belladonna Took's son would be an adventurer -- what's her story? And it would be cool to watch Old Bullroarer Took knock the head off a goblin and into a gopher hole, thereby winning the battle and inventing the game of golf at the same time. And when Bilbo was around 6, the Brandywine River froze, and the Shire had to fight off the White Wolves that came across. These could make good stories. Who knows?

Fundamentally, I prefer to watch a show before I review it.

[Darth Ultron]

A prequel show?

And one I'd guess can't use all the Big Famous Named Characters?

If the show is set way before time, then most characters won't be alive, but if it is only a couple years back in time....wow, we could get cool stuff like Teen Aragon! And what an awesome show that would be Teen Everyone (Even Legolas and Gandalf, though this would make no sense).

And guess they can use all the famous locations....on a TV budget. So they will go to Famous Place X and we will just see like a door and a window.

And LotR was very much Epic....but that is hard to do for a TV show, even if they wanted too.

[Jay R]

If the show is set way before time, then most characters won't be alive, but if it is only a couple years back in time....wow, we could get cool stuff like Teen Aragon!

They could introduce a young human named "Estel", raised by elves in Rivendell, and never tell those who haven't read all the books that he is also named "Aragorn".

[Vinyadan]

If I recall correctly, Elrond took it upon himself to break to him who he was. That would have been quite a scene. I wonder if it was always like that or if it was because his dad had been killed when he was little.
"Well, young man..."

[BannedInSchool]

....wow, we could get cool stuff like Teen Aragon!

The SilmFilm guys are fleshing out Third Age stuff to use as a framing device for telling early age stories. That included the adventures of teen Aragorn. Ideas they were kicking around were most everybody, including Aragorn himself, not knowing he was Isildur's heir to keep him secret, setting up a device for telling him and the viewers about his heritage. The Dunedain of the time also thinking there was no heir made a parallel between Aragorn claiming his role among them and later the kingship of Gondor, including conflict with the chieftain of the Rangers at the time. Argh, I'm forgetting with whom they drew another parallel from the First Age with some adventure of his, but Aragorn makes the other choice, or learns the right lesson, and he's gladly acknowledged as the heir of the leadership of the Rangers having proven some virtue beyond someone lobbing a scimitar at him. SilmFilm also toyed with the idea of one of the other Rangers giving teenage Aragorn the nickname "Strider" before knowing he was the king.

And it's a bit cheesy, but teenage Aragorn wanting to get out of Rivendell while in the Elvish perspective he had just been weaned yesterday was some proposed friction, with Elladan and Elrohir being his babysitters. Heh, SilmFilm also toyed with distinguishing between Elladan and Elrohir by making one more cheerful and easygoing and the other silent and mostly of the thought that orcs needed more killin' for what they did to his Martha, er, mother.

But anyway, a multi-part Teenage Aragorn episode in the Amazon TV series *could* meaningfully tie-in to the whole story.

[Aran nu tasar]

A prequel show?

And one I'd guess can't use all the Big Famous Named Characters?

They're paying enough for the rights, I'd imagine they can use all the big name characters they like. Of course, it's unlikely they can get the big-name cast of the movies, nor do I know if they are allowed to tread on New Line's turf by trying to ape the movie's aesthetics.

[Lord Joeltion]

3.Since they have restrictions in place, They're going to have to come up with new things. Whether they're good things or bad things. Time will tell.
5. Since they're starting as a LOTR prequel. It'd be a pretty ballsy decision to skip ahead to the end of Lord of the Rings for the aftermath. I think at worst what they'll do is try to go through the War of the Ring without actually showing any of it. That would depend on them putting the setting in some region that didn't get much direct involvement in the major events of the war, but still had a bad time.

So LOTROnline in TV format? I dig it, as long as there are Bards/Minstrels too

It's worth noting that back in the day, the movies had plenty detractors, way more than survive to this day; and the movies were a success, both financially and artistically. I expect nothing from the series, and don't think I will be much eager to watch it; but there's at least a tiny ray of hope, I guess.

[Spacewolf]

You know it would be interesting if they focused on the Dwarfs and the Goblin wars, they could keep the sets pretty small most of the time but still have the option for big spectacles if they needed to.

[Velaryon]

Something tells me this will be the TV equivalent of the Watchmen prequels. In other words, some of it will be decent, a lot of it will be forgettable, a little bit will be downright awful, and absolutely none of it will be necessary.

Anything that retreads the LotR films will probably compare unfavorably, because for the most part those are really, really good. They can certainly be more faithful to the books in certain places, but I don't necessarily consider that a good thing (I don't want to see Tom Bombadil).

If Amazon really paid close to $250 million for the rights alone, I truly can't imagine how they can keep costs low enough to make back their investment without compromising too much on quality.

[Hopeless]

Show how that city Faramir was trying to defend fell into Sauron's control?

Maybe focus on the city of Dale shortly after the end of the Hobbit as they begin rebuilding?

I'd prefer it to be something new and interesting that doesn't have too many restrictions involved as long as it doesn't involve rewriting the original books so keep the Simarils out!