3.5 Scout

[DragonsAion]

Ok, so i'm throwing myself at the feet of the playground and asking you all for your wisdom and insignts on the best way to Optimze a 10th level scout.

I want to play up the whole spy/ slient killer angle.

[sonofzeal]

Swift Hunter.



....that's about it, yeah. It's a feat that lets you stack Ranger and Scout levels for stuff, and is generally considered pretty awesome. Also "Improved Skirmish", for +2d6 damage and +1 AC. Between those two, you'll be doing pretty well.

[DragonsAion]

I've seen that but everyone seems to go full ranger after that. I might be the only one that dips 2 levels in to ranger and then takes 8 levels of scout.

Anyways to strengthen melee combat? I know a scout is not made for it but it can/ will happen.

[Dusk Eclipse]

For completeness sake, here is the Swift Hunter Handbook.

Also if you can try to get Mystic Ranger aproved (it is from dragon magazine), the spells are a great way to improve your combat abilties.

[sonofzeal]

I've seen that but everyone seems to go full ranger after that. I might be the only one that dips 2 levels in to ranger and then takes 8 levels of scout.

Anyways to strengthen melee combat? I know a scout is not made for it but it can/ will happen.

Melee combat is still skirmishable. Try to get extra sources of movement though, the ability to 10-foot-step is key. I played a melee Scout using "Agile Shield Fighter" and shield bash, and "Martial Study: Sudden Leap" for mobility. If I'd wanted to go higher-optimization, I would have hunted down a pair of Cyran Gliding Shoes. And Swift Hunter is still worthwhile if you stay on the Scout side.

[DragonsAion]

Sorry, but no tome of battle here. DM says it's WAY over powered. I was thinking of going human or shifter for race. I might go longstrider shifter with the longstrider elite feat. that would give me a total of 20 added on top of what scout gives me.

Also has anyone played a Catfolk scout?

[sonofzeal]

Sorry, but no tome of battle here. DM says it's WAY over powered. I was thinking of going human or shifter for race. I might go longstrider shifter with the longstrider elite feat. that would give me a total of 20 added on top of what scout gives me.

Also has anyone played a Catfolk scout?

If Martial Study is out, I'd definitely get those Gliding Shoes.

And Catfolk Pounce is awesome. ^^

[DragonsAion]

I'll look into the shoes. Do you know where I can find them? I have the MIC so I'm free to chose from it.

for feats I'm thinking swift hunter,dodge, mobity, and spring attack. For a class based on needing to move ten feet spring attack seems like a good thing.

[sonofzeal]

I'll look into the shoes. Do you know where I can find them? I have the MIC so I'm free to chose from it.

for feats I'm thinking swift hunter,dodge, mobity, and spring attack. For a class based on needing to move ten feet spring attack seems like a good thing.

Feats sound good, although I'd really try and get Improved Skirmish in there. And the shoes were a hyperlink, just click on it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IF you go spring attack route, I sugges you try this little combo

Battle jump, is a feat from Unaproachable east which if you jump from at least 5 feet over your enemy, you may charge, now as jumps are made as part of a move action, you can combine it with Spring attack.

the DC to jump 10 vertical is 40 (though but doable) let's say 13 ranks + 4 from strength + 10 from ring of impoved jumping +2 Synergy bonus from 5 ranks in tumble + 2 for having a 40 ft base speed. so 33 jump modifier, you can do the jump on a 7 or more. I say the probabilities are good arent they?

See if you can get pounce and now you can full attack on a Spring attack

[Greenish]

IF you go spring attack route, I sugges you try this little combo

Battle jump, is a feat from Unaproachable east which if you jump from at least 5 feet over your enemy, you may charge, now as jumps are made as part of a move action, you can combine it with Spring attack.

The Charge is part of the move action. You don't need Spring Attack to keep moving, you can just use your other move action.

[Coidzor]

Person Man's thread about getting free movement, pounce, or their equivalents.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dip a level in Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion and the turn attempts to fuel it. This lets you move then make a full attack, maximizing your Skirmish damage output. Much more reliable than those silly shoes.

[Flickerdart]

Dip a level in Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion and the turn attempts to fuel it. This lets you move then make a full attack, maximizing your Skirmish damage output. Much more reliable than those silly shoes.

Better yet, dip a level of Cleric and a level of Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem). Charge, full attack, walk away. Your enemies will have trouble pinning you down.

[Greenish]

Better yet, dip a level of Cleric and a level of Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem). Charge, full attack, walk away. Your enemies will have trouble pinning you down.

Combo with HiPS and good Hide skill.

[dgnslyr]

Combo with HiPS and good Hide skill.

So you leap out of the shadows, tear out somebody's liver, cooly walk away, and vanish? Sounds pretty awesome!

HiPS won't be too much of a problem at later levels when you have a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. The only problem I see is getting Hide as a class skill with the ones you'll be working with.

[Greenish]

HiPS won't be too much of a problem at later levels when you have a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis?

Well, that gives the weaker version of HiPS. A shadowdancer dip might be more prudent.

As for classes, well, Revenant Blade is pretty nice. Move Silently and Hide as class skills, skillpoints to burn, class level as Competence bonus to those checks… A build I'd been kicking around was something like ranger2/barb1/fighter2/RB5/cleric1/shadowdancer1 and then something.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The Charge is part of the move action. You don't need Spring Attack to keep moving, you can just use your other move action.

Spring attacks offers you another attack, and it opens the rapid blitz and bounding assault lines for even more attack (good in a swift hunter build) also you can avoid the AoO without tumbling.

Also IIRC Both bounding assault and Rapid Blitz let you move between attacks, so you can arguably make even more pouncing charges....


Hey this is tempting to combine in gestalt with warblade (or swordsage) to get the moongoose manoubers and leaping dragon stance...

[Greenish]

Spring attacks offers you another attack, and it opens the rapid blitz and bounding assault lines for even more attack (good in a swift hunter build) also you can avoid the AoO without tumbling.

Get higher move speed and jump many times to trigger Battle Jump, then scamper?

[Dusk Eclipse]

:shrugs: just an idea I wanted to share (though the full credit of combining them should go to True Shinken, as he posted that combo)

[Curmudgeon]

The Charge is part of the move action.

That's not correct, because a charge is a special full-round action. Plus you can't combine a charge and Spring Attack since Spring Attack requires a move action, which is split around your attack.

From the Special Edition Player's Handbook 3.5:

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

It's sometimes difficult to keep up with all the rules, especially "stealth errata" like this. But that's the RAW. Spring Attack requires a move action, and a charge never includes a move action.

[Zaq]

Actually, Curmudgeon, I believe that the topic was that special funky charge from Battle Jump, not the normal kind of charge anyone can do.

[dgnslyr]

Well, that gives the weaker version of HiPS. A shadowdancer dip might be more prudent.

I'm sure there are plenty of fun ways and plenty of practical ways, with some overlap, to cover a battlefield in darkness.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually, Curmudgeon, I believe that the topic was that special funky charge from Battle Jump, not the normal kind of charge anyone can do.

But that doesn't apply, either. Battle Jump's "funky charge" is triggered by dropping, not by using a move action. Dropping is dependent on gravity and independent of character speed.

move action

An action that is the equivalent of the character moving his speed.

[Dusk Eclipse]

But that doesn't apply, either. Battle Jump's "funky charge" is triggered by dropping, not by using a move action. Dropping is dependent on gravity and independent of character speed.

Thats why you use spring attack to move and hence jump over the enemy dropping over him and thus triggering battle jump.

[Coidzor]

Could one charge someone on the other side of a hostile if one is able to jump over the hostile?

[true_shinken]

But that doesn't apply, either. Battle Jump's "funky charge" is triggered by dropping, not by using a move action. Dropping is dependent on gravity and independent of character speed.

Yeah, a DC 40 Jump check allows to drop from 5 feet up on a Medium target.
Nice to know Spring Attack was stealth errata'd to allow for standard action attacks. Martial adepts and Duskblades might even consider it now!

[Curmudgeon]

Thats why you use spring attack to move and hence jump over the enemy dropping over him and thus triggering battle jump.

That's not a motion that's permitted either by physics (where jump arcs are parabolic) or the limited options of D&D Jump checks. You have the following choices:

• Long Jump
• High Jump
• Hop Up
• Jumping Down

Battle Jump requires dropping down. Jumping Down certainly would work for Battle Jump, but that doesn't use the move action required by Spring Attack. Long Jump would allow you to make the height but not drop down; instead you'd come in at a 22½ degree angle (mostly across instead of down). High Jump would also let you gain the height but not drop into the target's space unless you started at the same horizontal offset (in the target's square, or directly above or below), so you'd probably need to be able to legally share the target's space (be at least 3 sizes smaller than the target). Hop Up is the only other possible legal use of Jump for this combination, but would require your waist height exceed the target's head height by at least 5'.

[true_shinken]

That's not a motion that's permitted either by physics (where jump arcs are parabolic) or the limited options of D&D Jump checks.

Battle Jump does not mention angles or anything, so a long jump would suffice. You are dropping from a high point to another, lower point, aren't you?
Even if you won't agree with that, there is another way: use Tumble to move past his space, while you are moving through his square, Jump up.
Presto.

[Curmudgeon]

Even if you won't agree with that, there is another way: use Tumble to move past his space, while you are moving through his square, Jump up.
Presto.

OK, now that's a useful approach that works within the rules. Thank you. I'm not sure how many characters are going to be able to clear their opponent's head height by 5', but this seems like a solid tactic for those who can.