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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Durkon explicitly calls Haley the leader of the Order of the Stick. That seems good enough. Arguments against involve subjective opinions about importance and effectiveness and whatnot.

    At the very least, she is the one and only leader of the Azure City Resistance. Definitely.
    Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2013-04-06 at 11:25 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodneyAnonymous View Post
    At the very least, she is the one and only leader of the Azure City Resistance. Definitely.
    You're forgetting Ho Thanh, who led the unified Azure Resistance, not just the branch Haley was in charge of. Haley led one third of it, a woman led another third, a man led the last third, and Ho Thanh led them all once they consolidated under his leadership.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Not forgetting anything. That is a new organization. They weren't just branches of the same organization prior to merging. Seems like this is arguing just to argue.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodneyAnonymous View Post
    Not forgetting anything. That is a new organization. They weren't just branches of the same organization prior to merging. Seems like this is arguing just to argue.
    Narratively, they were. Even the elves, which were merely warriors from another country, were narratively considered to be part of the Azure Resistance, despite the fact that they functioned under yet another hierarchy. They are all narratively part of the same group, and Haley only got to lead a third (or a quarter, if you count the elves) of it.

    The reason it's being argued is that putting Haley down as a leader, in the same vein as every other (male) leader we've seen would give a false impression when analysing the work, since Haley was clearly not the same calibre of leader as Roy or the others. If someone were to read the OP of this thread and see "Roy, leader" and "Haley, second in command, temporary leader" they might conclude that the narrative treated them equally during their turns at leadership, when it obviously hasn't. It would be conveying a false message.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    To be entirely fair to Haley she was less effective than Roy due to the fact that half of the party wasn't around and Belkar responds only to violence. Since he is an equivalent level ranger who is better at violence than she is...
    Her plans were good its just she didn't have the same kind of power as Roy
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Narratively, they were. Even the elves, which were merely warriors from another country, were narratively considered to be part of the Azure Resistance...
    In what sense? Would Haley or Thanh give them orders? Would they be followed? I doubt it in both cases.

    Narratively maybe they are considered part of the "same movement" or something, but the same organization? Not at all.
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl45DM! View Post
    To be entirely fair to Haley she was less effective than Roy due to the fact that half of the party wasn't around and Belkar responds only to violence. Since he is an equivalent level ranger who is better at violence than she is...
    Her plans were good its just she didn't have the same kind of power as Roy
    She wasn't as decisive, though. She couldn't look at the big picture very well.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl45DM! View Post
    To be entirely fair to Haley she was less effective than Roy due to the fact that half of the party wasn't around and Belkar responds only to violence. Since he is an equivalent level ranger who is better at violence than she is...
    Her plans were good its just she didn't have the same kind of power as Roy
    Tier-wise, ranger and rogue are roughly the same, and fighter is a tier below them, so if a fighter could keep the ranger in check, so could the rogue. We don't know exactly why Belkar didn't respect her. It could have been because they were both Chaotic, because Roy had more Charisma/Intimidate than Haley, or because Belkar was chauvinistic and only followed the leadership of men. We can speculate as much as we want, but power? Nope, that is probably one of the few things that we can rule out.

    Quote Originally Posted by rodneyAnonymous View Post
    In what sense? Would Haley or Thanh give them orders? Would they be followed? I doubt it in both cases.

    Narratively maybe they are considered part of the "same movement" or something, but the same organization? Not at all.
    It doesn't matter, because their narrative purpose is finished and therefore we will never know. They worked together to pursue the same goals, on the same side, and were not narratively important enough to warrant a detailed explanation of their hierarchy.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    First point: uh, what? I'm not sure how lacking effective omniscience makes any difference.
    Second: Great, you've found an author that can't write what they mean. Congratulations, they're bad at getting a point across.
    Third: Umm... irrelevant.
    Since I provided about five illustrations in that paragraph, I'm not sure what your three points refer to. My point is that authors are not perfect communicators, either with their audience, themselves, or the world around them. An author might blithely write what, to them, seems like a very simple story, all while their subconscious is investing it with deeper connections that they might never even notice until a reader points it out to them. I have seen actual published big-name authors say, "Holy ****, you're right" in response to a reader insight. That's an instance of reader interpretation exceeding authorial intent.

    Authors are also sometimes bad communicators, yes. In fact, no author ever writes exactly what they mean, and the more subtle and complex the thing they're trying to write is, the more that comes into play. That doesn't make an author bad. But some authors are blinded by their experiences, either because they're embedded in a particular culture or because of their own life stories, and they may write something that they think says deep things about the world that actually says something entirely different. To give a rather crude example, an author might think he's saying "Women like my ex are conniving ratbags" and actually be saying "Men like me, the author, are jerks, and no woman would want to spend time with them." (Thus the potato comic.)

    And authors make mistakes, like Raymond Chandler did. It was his belief that the murderer was evident, but apparently he forgot to actually write that bit into his book. In that case, the reader (actually the director) was blatantly right and the author blatantly wrong. The authorial intent was that someone (nobody knows, now) committed the murder, but the text, which is all we have to go by, doesn't let us reach any conclusions. If we found clues in the text pointing to someone, it would be valid to draw them out and make a case, even though the author doesn't even know whodunnit.

    Anyway, I've said what I meant to say. That's probably all I'm going to say on this topic, unless you contribute something more thoughtful than "Pfft...irrelevant."

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Okay, so there's a disagreement about whether Haley and Thahn were leaders of the same organization, but...
    Why is that important? Haley was unquestionably the leader of the Order, as expressed by herself, Durkon, and Celia. Surely we can agree that that is a more important group than the resistance?

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Okay, so there's a disagreement about whether Haley and Thahn were leaders of the same organization, but...
    Why is that important? Haley was unquestionably the leader of the Order, as expressed by herself, Durkon, and Celia. Surely we can agree that that is a more important group than the resistance?
    Yes, and her leadership skills could not prevent Celia and Belkar from getting into... well, we all know the story. She also failed to establish her leadership with the other half of the party at all.

    Again, the narrative does not treat her the same as any of the male leaders. Belkar says it, Haley herself says it, ghost!Roy vaguely hints at it, the narrative says it. As much as I would really like to see a competent female leader in the comic, her stint as a leader was not competent. This is something I wish had been handled differently, but what's done is done. That's how she has been portrayed.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Yes, and her leadership skills could not prevent Celia and Belkar from getting into... well, we all know the story. She also failed to establish her leadership with the other half of the party at all.

    Again, the narrative does not treat her the same as any of the male leaders. Belkar says it, Haley herself says it, ghost!Roy vaguely hints at it, the narrative says it. As much as I would really like to see a competent female leader in the comic, her stint as a leader was not competent. This is something I wish had been handled differently, but what's done is done. That's how she has been portrayed.
    Who said anything about competence? Okay, some other people did, but I was primarily referring to the fact that she should be listed under "most important group lead by a female." The debate about whether she was a good leader is besides the point.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Who said anything about competence? Okay, some other people did, but I was primarily referring to the fact that she should be listed under "most important group lead by a female." The debate about whether she was a good leader is besides the point.
    The point is that it gives a false impression of equality. She was not Roy's equal as a leader (or the equal of most of the male leaders on the list), so listing her as such is disingenuous and unfair, and paints a very different picture of what actually happened.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Who said anything about competence? Okay, some other people did, but I was primarily referring to the fact that she should be listed under "most important group lead by a female." The debate about whether she was a good leader is besides the point.
    Evidence for my alternate argument; that Roy was the leader all along and Haley was just trying to survive until they could get the man back.

    "Our leader is dead, our most powerful member is MIA, and Durkon has been healing us all day."

    "Leaders are held responsible for their followers under the assumption that the leader has SOME degree of control over them. Which is not the case here: Belkar doesn't listen to me at all. I'm 'leader' in name only, so I refuse to be held accountable for his actions."

    "Our leader, Roy, is dead."
    Last edited by oppyu; 2013-04-07 at 12:35 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Tier-wise, ranger and rogue are roughly the same, and fighter is a tier below them, so if a fighter could keep the ranger in check, so could the rogue. We don't know exactly why Belkar didn't respect her. It could have been because they were both Chaotic, because Roy had more Charisma/Intimidate than Haley, or because Belkar was chauvinistic and only followed the leadership of men. We can speculate as much as we want, but power? Nope, that is probably one of the few things that we can rule out.
    Tiers do not necessarily indicate who would beat who in a fight. Rich doesn't care about tiers he cares about story. Belkar annihilated Haleys rival in like one round. Its been blatantly stated in comic that the only reason that Belkar listens to Roy is cos Roy had the rest of the OotS backing him up.



    In the larger sense using Belkar as a measure of someones leadership isn't exactly fair, and in the long run Haley got the Order of the Stick reunited successfully despite Epic magic, a whole thieves guild, two party members that disobeyed direct orders and limited funds.
    Not to mention successfully maintaining a low-level army against Tsukiko for months. She did pretty dang well. Do we want to start comparing her to Roy? Under Roy's watch two party members have died, one being himself!
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  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl45DM! View Post
    Tiers do not necessarily indicate who would beat who in a fight. Rich doesn't care about tiers he cares about story. Belkar annihilated Haleys rival in like one round. Its been blatantly stated in comic that the only reason that Belkar listens to Roy is cos Roy had the rest of the OotS backing him up.
    You are asserting two contradictory things. On one hand, you imply that Roy was more powerful than Haley, and contained Belkar on threat of violence alone (I disagree, I think Haley, Belkar and Roy are evenly matched, with "whoever wins in a fight" going to whoever has the surprise/environmental advantage).

    On the other, you're asserting that Roy can only keep Belkar in check because he has the rest of the order backing him up, in which case Haley was doomed to fail the moment the other three sailed away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl45DM! View Post
    In the larger sense using Belkar as a measure of someones leadership isn't exactly fair, and in the long run Haley got the Order of the Stick reunited successfully despite Epic magic, a whole thieves guild, two party members that disobeyed direct orders and limited funds.
    Not to mention successfully maintaining a low-level army against Tsukiko for months. She did pretty dang well. Do we want to start comparing her to Roy? Under Roy's watch two party members have died, one being himself!
    Actually, Haley wouldn't have got the order reunited at all if it weren't for Celia. She was the one that prodded her to leave Cloister range, find a cleric, and contact Durkon. Sure, she screwed things up majorly afterwards, but Haley was content to do nothing (just like Durkon) for months.

    We don't know if she successfully maintained a low-level army. The only excursion we saw ended up with her losing lives under her care. After that, Belkar ended up taking out the Oracle before he could give them useful advice (and becoming useless as the Mark of Justice was triggered), she was unable to keep Celia out of trouble (and ended up getting dragged into a huge mess where she would've likely ended up dead if it hadn't been for both Celia and Belkar) and ended up repeatedly admitting she wasn't cut up for the job.

    Every time Roy loses a team member, on the other hand, several people rush to reassure him of his leadership capacities and continue believing he's an excellent leader despite it, while all of Haley's accomplishments as a leader end up under "you did the best you could, but you don't have what it takes to lead." This isn't my opinion, this is what the narrative says, what characters around her say, and what Haley herself says.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Stuff
    Your point about what the narrative says is poignant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl45DM! View Post
    Your point about what the narrative says is poignant.
    Thank you. I don't want to diss Haley, she's one of my favourite characters (and I don't want to diss the Giant either), but this is one of those things I mentioned before where you can analyse and criticise something you love.

    Examining how the narrative treats women in a position of power can lead us to interesting discussions about the work, and can educate people who might otherwise be ignorant about some social/literary issues. Which I think is a good thing. We could discuss, for example, how the Giant could have achieved his goals while empowering Haley as a strong leader (or, perhaps, if he could have achieved his goals while doing so, or if the goal of empowering the male leader necessitated that his replacement was not nearly as good as him in order to lend him confidence when it faltered, as per #881), and many other topics.

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Every time Roy loses a team member, on the other hand, several people rush to reassure him of his leadership capacities and continue believing he's an excellent leader despite it,
    Every time? You mean, "once." I don't remember anyone telling him he was a good leader when he got himself killed. In fact, I remember the exact opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    We could discuss, for example, how the Giant could have achieved his goals while empowering Haley as a strong leader (or, perhaps, if he could have achieved his goals while doing so, or if the goal of empowering the male leader necessitated that his replacement was not nearly as good as him in order to lend him confidence when it faltered, as per #881), and many other topics.
    The goal, in this case, was to keep true to Haley's previously-established character. And her established character was a rule-breaking individualist with trust issues and a moderate contempt for authority who self-selected herself as second-in-command by swindling the other party members with no expectation of it ever coming up. It would have made no sense to violate that existing character 60% of the way through the story just so we could tick the "Strong Female Leader Depicted" box for the comic. That's not who Haley is, and I don't need to force her growth in that direction because it's OK to not be a leader. Not everyone in the world is good at the same things, and I take exception to the idea that only leadership positions "count." Chaotic is just as valid as Lawful in this story, it's just that Lawful tends to be a lot better at working in groups.

    If you want to rag on me for not having other female leader characters, fine, whatever. Fair point. But I stand by my depiction of Haley. I am very much in favor of representation, but it doesn't help anyone for me to throw out my female character's entire personality just to satisfy an arbitrary desire to fill a role. If I do that, aren't I saying that who she is as an individual doesn't matter as much as which gender she is?

    Also, Haley reunited the party and resurrected Roy. I'd take her track record over Nale's any day, and I don't see anyone questioning his legitimacy as a leader.
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  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Also, Haley reunited the party and resurrected Roy. I'd take her track record over Nale's any day, and I don't see anyone questioning his legitimacy as a leader.
    Probably because Nale is very much definitely a leader, even if his planning skills are... ridiculous.

    Hm. Something has occurred to me: how many females have had a Lawful alignment, without that being explicitly required of their class or what they are? Including them, I can think of Miko, Lien, and Celia... and that's not exactly the largest pool ever.
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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Sara Greenhilt.

    And for men with a Lawful alignment, there's Roy, Durkon, Tarquin, Nale, Malack, Redcloak, Hinjo, O-Chul, Thanh, Eugene Greenhilt. Bearing in mind that there are far more male characters than female ones (and, yes, that's a problem), I don't think there's any correlation between being female and being non-Lawful (though there is, actually, one between being female and being Lawful Good if established Lawful at all).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    Probably because Nale is very much definitely a leader, even if his planning skills are... ridiculous.

    Hm. Something has occurred to me: how many females have had a Lawful alignment, without that being explicitly required of their class or what they are? Including them, I can think of Miko, Lien, and Celia... and that's not exactly the largest pool ever.
    Going through the list with best guesses,

    Lawful
    Lien
    Miko
    Celia

    Neutral
    Therkla

    Chaotic
    Haley Starshine
    Tsukiko
    Sabine
    Hilgya Firehelm
    Crystal
    Samantha

    Unknown
    Kazumi Kato (guess: lawful)
    Empress of Blood (guess: chaotic)
    Niu (guess: lawful)
    Eye-patched Leader (guess: chaotic)
    Team Peregrine Lieutenant (guess: um... let's say neutral)
    Lirian (guess: neutral)
    Serini (guess: chaotic)

    There are many more guys than girls on the list and I really don't feel like going through all of them, but if I had to guess after a quick scan, I would say there is a more even distribution, leaning towards lawful.

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Every time? You mean, "once." I don't remember anyone telling him he was a good leader when he got himself killed. In fact, I remember the exact opposite.

    Also, Haley reunited the party and resurrected Roy. I'd take her track record over Nale's any day, and I don't see anyone questioning his legitimacy as a leader.
    I'm not sure Eugene counts. He'd have insulted Roy for anything pre-strip 500 except actually killing Xykon. Meaning no member of the Order questioned or praised his poor tactic of Dragon Jumping.

    Haley didn't do as much to reunite the Party as Celia did. Haley would have stayed in Gobbotopia forever if Celia hadn't intervened. Celia prevented the party from sending Greysky into a warzone. Celia indirectly cured Belkar's curse and revived his city killing powers due to the cowardly cleric. Celia enabled Haley to have the satisfaction of killing Crystal unlocking some sort of character development. All Haley did was know Blind Pete and UMD a sending scroll.

    I think Nale is a good leader. He gets his party to listen to him and do exactly what he says, which Roy cannot do. He consistently recruits members. He can buy himself time even against opponents more powerful than him. It always takes random luck and intervention from outside forces to thwart his plans against the order. The only reason his 2012 record is so low is because Tarquin is just that much better and Nale is scared of him and Malack. I have no doubt that if the linear guild were more inclined to saving the world, Xykon would have died at Azure City.

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    Celia indirectly cured Belkar's curse and revived his city killing powers due to the cowardly cleric. Celia enabled Haley to have the satisfaction of killing Crystal unlocking some sort of character development.
    How did Celia contribute to either of those?!?

    I think Nale is a good leader. He gets his party to listen to him and do exactly what he says, which Roy cannot do. He consistently recruits members. He can buy himself time even against opponents more powerful than him. It always takes random luck and intervention from outside forces to thwart his plans against the order. The only reason his 2012 record is so low is because Tarquin is just that much better and Nale is scared of him and Malack. I have no doubt that if the linear guild were more inclined to saving the world, Xykon would have died at Azure City.
    Wha? I don't even...no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    How did Celia contribute to either of those?!?
    Without Celia, Haley would never have gone and done them? Pretty straightforward.

    Wha? I don't even...no.
    Complexity addiction aside, he can lead. Now, if he could create a simple plan? He'd be a threat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    How did Celia contribute to either of those?!?
    By going to Greysky City against Haley's Advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Wha? I don't even...no.
    Actually, Sunken Valley has a good point. So far Nale's plots have failed due to unforeseeable coincidences; Roy's Dad's Ghost's cryptic prophecy, Julian Scoundrel happening to run into Elan at a bar, the Order wandering into Z's Scrying Sensor in what the LG thought was a random point in a continental desert. His actual schemes are pretty good too; his initial plot in the Dungeon of Dorukan was well thought out and well executed, his revenge plot in Cliffport showed a lot of insight, and his method of finding Gerard's Gate under his father's nose was clever and actually worked.

    As a minor antagonist he can't actually succeed, and he is a bit doofy, but Nale is far from an incompetent.


    Anyway, back to the actual topic...

    First, huge props to Rich for OotS being as cool as it is. This comic has helped make my gaming more sophisticated in a lot of ways, as I'm sure it has for many other readers, because it approaches the conventions of RPGs and Fantasy narratives in a thoughtful way which highlights the best and worst aspects of them. The fact that it's also consistently funny and avoids preachiness adds to that IMO.

    If I had to identify an issue, it would be the fact that the majority of characters are male. OotS is better than most media I've seen, both in terms of the ratio of important characters and in that Rich remembers to use female "extras" and minor characters where their sex isn't directly relevant. But as the amount of Blue on the first page indicates, over-representation of men is a thing.

    In terms of sexuality, I'm not really qualified to make a call. Obviously LGBT+ people want characters they can relate to, but it also strains credibility if groups who make up 5% or 1% of the population end up with multiple main characters. Where is that line drawn? I have no idea.

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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Nale is a bad leader in the sense that he doesn't care if the people he leads (except maybe Sabine) are being led to their doom. And unlike Xykon and Redcloak the people in question aren't easily replaceable.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

  29. - Top - End - #179
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Missing Captain Amun-Zora as a female leader.

    Captain is a commanding-officer in any branch.

    ETA: And Team Tarquin has two more females (and two males) here, to bring the average down abit:
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html.

    And there's a Queen in that strip too.
    Last edited by JustWantedToSay; 2013-04-07 at 11:35 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #180
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Raineh Daze's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Around
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Nale is a bad leader in the sense that he doesn't care if the people he leads (except maybe Sabine) are being led to their doom. And unlike Xykon and Redcloak the people in question aren't easily replaceable.
    Leadership talent and alignment are noticeably two different things, though.
    Things to avoid:

    "Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."

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