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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Current childrearing mores, obviously. I highly doubt any Olympian woman was raised as a boy...
    What aspects of being raised as a girl are going to be intrinsically relevant to athletic performance, and what evidence do you have that they are universally the case?

    You're practically saying that the mere knowledge of one's girlhood will cause your growth hormone levels to drop, even when you're otherwise getting plenty of physical activity, and this will permanently cripple your performance for life. I don't know how to even begin addressing that.
    Last edited by Carry2; 2013-04-08 at 10:34 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    the difference between you/I and a cat is a large number of orders of magnitude bigger than the difference we're talking about in this discussion
    You might decide that you consider them huge, from whatever relative POV you want to adopt for the purpose of finding them huge,
    The cognitive dissonance in this post is frankly awe-inspiring.

    I would continue the discussion, but if you can't see how the PoV you're using to find one difference huge and another small is just as relative as mine, then clearly we will never see eye to eye.

    I disagree, genetics definitely play a role, and on many levels.
    Then we must agree to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    A little correction: I was more or less saying that because something has been, or is, then it's somewhat understandable that people will, currently, tend to default to it over the "has not yet been" option.
    Nobody has ever uttered the words "I do not understand why it happens" in this thread. That was not an argument nobody ever made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    What aspects of being raised as a girl are going to be intrinsically relevant to athletic performance, and what evidence do you have that are universally the case?
    Are you aware that girls and boys are encouraged to undertake different types of exercise, and in different frequency? That girls are often dressed in clothes that are detrimental to vigorous exercise, such as dresses and skirts? That the cultural ideal of beauty for women is small and skinny while the cultural ideal of beauty for men is big and muscled? That girls are discouraged from "playing rough", from physical competition and aggressiveness, and from engaging in more intense types of exercise?

    If a child is not raised to exercise vigorously, frequently and intensely, she's not going to secrete as much GH as one who is. The ideal of beauty is also not something to dismiss callously, as it has an enormous influence on the activities undertaking during childhood and puberty in order to appear more appealing to society at large.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    You're practicall saying that the mere knowledge of one's girlhood will cause your growth hormone levels to drop, even when you're otherwise getting plenty of physical activity, and this will permanently cripple your performance for life. I don't know how to even begin addressing that.

    This is what I mean by demanding standards of proof that can never be satisfied.
    That is not what I said and you know it. You are wilfully ignoring the different ways in which we rear children in order to have a strawman to argue against.
    Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2013-04-08 at 10:41 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Have the percentages in the first post been updated with the list changes? I'm not sure.
    Things to avoid:

    "Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."

  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    Biology isn't going to help with identification or diagnosis...
    Imagine a society where, instead of having to go through years of intensive counselling before you can convince your peers and family that you are, in fact, a girl/woman in a boy/man's body, you could simply walk into a clinic, give a blood sample, sit in an MRI machine, and walk out a few hours later with a 90% positive confirmation that you are, in fact, stuck in the wrong body. At an absolute minimum, it would be very helpful for telling any doubters to go stuff themselves.

    Look, I realise this is an uncomfortable topic, but uncomfortable facts do not evaporate when we cease talking about them. They continue to be problems, and problems that cannot be solved under the assumption of incorrect causes.

  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Sounds abhorrent. Too many things wrong with such a world. ._.

    The thing about uncomfortable topics is they can safely be ignored when irrelevant to the thread and being brought up by someone determined to give biology a bad name.

  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Are you aware that girls and boys are encouraged to undertake different types of exercise, and in different frequency? That girls are often dressed in clothes that are detrimental to vigorous exercise, such as dresses and skirts?
    And again, what evidence do you have that every single female olympian athlete was systematically subject to those disadvantages, or that they would actually be significant enough to account for ultimate performance differences vs. men? One of the best female bodybuilders in the world only took up the sport a few years ago. This tends to argue against lifelong exercise being an overriding factor in deciding athletic success.

  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    Sounds abhorrent. Too many things wrong with such a world. ._.
    What's wrong with this scenario, exactly? Convenience? Certainty? The potential for earlier detection and lower intervention cost?

    EDIT: Never mind. I'm sure the schizophrenics would prefer we go back to blaming their mothers for not being attentive enough, instead of researching effective medication.
    Last edited by Carry2; 2013-04-08 at 10:56 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    And again, what evidence do you have that every single female olympian athlete was systematically subject to those disadvantages, or that they would actually be significant enough to account for ultimate performance differences vs. men? One of the best female bodybuilders in the world only took up the sport a few years ago. This tends to argue against lifelong exercise being an overriding factor in deciding athletic success.
    What evidence do you have that they weren't? If something is applied widely on a societal basis, I am perfectly within my rights to assume that a woman raised in such a society would have been affected by something that affects women. The onus of proving otherwise would fall on you.

    Yes, that woman did that. I am very proud of her and I hope she serves as an inspiration for all women (I am saving that article to spread it around too, thanks). That proves nothing, as she could have easily been part of the higher end of the bell curve, or have received extensive exercise during childhood. She could have also had a higher than average secretion of GH during her childhood/life. A single case proves nothing, or else scientists wouldn't go to enormous lengths to study statistics and gather large groups of volunteers before performing experimentation.

  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Because in that scenario, there's clearly no point to the continued existence of humanity. In fact.

    Now, a relevant topic, please? At least make an ATTEMPT to include media and take the bodybuilding discussion elsewhere.
    Things to avoid:

    "Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."

  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    About the only thing I could say I'm suffering from at the moment is irritation from seeing someone talk about things they don't fully understand.
    I've been thinking about this thread all day, and I think I've figured out part of the problem, at least for an author. The main problem with including more LGBT characters—from the point of view of a straight author—is that I run the very high risk of talking out my ass. I do not know the first thing about the LGBT experience; I have had many close friends who are gay, I'm very comfortable around gay people, but I would never claim to really understand their experience. And that leaves me with a catch-22. If I don't include LGBT characters, then I'm not being inclusive; if I do include them, then I'm presuming to speak for an often-oppressed minority to which I do not belong. How do I solve that?

    If this was a corporate-controlled media, the answer would be easy: Hire more LGBT writers, and then let everyone write what they know. But I can't do that. I'm not going to fall on my sword and stop writing just because I'm straight and the world needs more non-straight material. I can put in minor characters here and there, though that also runs into the problem of how do I let the audience know they're gay if they aren't in any romantic situations. But the main characters are more problematic, because it's really important to get inside their heads, and I don't know if I'm a good enough writer to pull that off—especially if the character is likely to have a romantic plot.

    And getting back to the "flying lizards are less realistic than gay people" bit: It occurs to me that dragons and magic may be more unrealistic, but they're also impossible to get wrong. No one can really be furious at me for portraying a dragon negatively, because dragons don't exist. But I can guarantee you that if I mangled the writing on a gay or lesbian character, I'd never hear the end of it (and rightly so). I would be offending the very audience I was attempting to appeal to by their inclusion in the first place. That's awfully risky for an author. I'm not saying choosing non-inclusion is the right choice, but it is the safer choice. And I think maybe it's the choice that gets made when you aren't really paying attention, like I wasn't when I started the strip.

    I don't know. It's late and I don't know what I'm getting at, except to say that I think I may have accidentally shied away from LGBT inclusion precisely because I do respect their experience and wouldn't presume to do it justice. Which probably doesn't help anyone, but there it is.

    EDIT: Also, this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    Now, a relevant topic, please? At least make an ATTEMPT to include media and take the bodybuilding discussion elsewhere.
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  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    And that leaves me with a catch-22. If I don't include LGBT characters, then I'm not being inclusive; if I do include them, then I'm presuming to speak for an often-oppressed minority to which I do not belong. How do I solve that?
    Well, I don't speak for everyone (or anyone at all, really), but in my personal opinion, I'd rather see LGBTQ+ characters written exactly as if they were straight. I don't need a sob story about coming to grips with sexuality, I don't need it addressed or justified or explained. Having a character who says "that's his husband" or one who flirts with everyone (like Sabine, yes, but without the "evil succubus" thing), or even having two background characters of the same gender holding hands/kissing would be enough.

    Now granted, it's already too late for inclusion to be meaningful in the OotS (as the sexualities of all major characters has already been defined), but in future works (as I recall you mentioning in a podcast that you saw yourself continuing to do more comics/artistic stuff even after the Oots was over), having a guy like Roy being gay would be incredibly progressive. At least for people who think like me, yo don't need to do anything special to please us.

    I know some people argue that a gay character who is written exactly like a straight one is a cop-out. I understand, I think, where those people come from, but I profoundly disagree. I'm not saying you're wrong and nobody's going to complain (because someone always will, no matter what you do. Sorry.), but know that with minimal effort on your part, you could achieve a result that would be beyond satisfactory for a significant number of us.

    And if someone complains, you can always use the Chimamanda Adichie defence:

    "Chimamanda Adichie once spoke in a conference about the danger of a single story. You may not like the story I'm telling, and that's fine, but my goal is not to find the perfect depiction of the LGBTQ+ person. It's to add another story."

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I'm not saying choosing non-inclusion is the right choice, but it is the safer choice. And I think maybe it's the choice that gets made when you aren't really paying attention, like I wasn't when I started the strip.
    I don't think anybody is blaming you for that. It's understandable. There was a link in this very thread about a woman whose Young Adult novel was constantly getting rejected because it had a gay character.

    We have to accept facts. Inclusion is a big risk. No matter how angry that makes us, we have no right to get angry at authors who are doing what they have to do in a hard and competitive market.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I don't know. It's late and I don't know what I'm getting at, except to say that I think I may have accidentally shied away from LGBT inclusion precisely because I do respect their experience. Which probably doesn't help anyone, but there it is.
    That is perfectly understandable, and I for one would like to thank you for putting thought into it, and for all the instances of progressiveness that you most certainly did include in your comic. I am extremely pleased with what little we saw of the gay Cliffport cop, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    EDIT: Also, this:
    It's dropped on my end.

    Official apologies to anyone I might have inadvertently offended.

  12. - Top - End - #402
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Rich, I know this will sound kind of sycophantic, and as you noted it's a bit late in the game to do it for OotS (but who knows what might come after). but I think I can speak for a number of people here when I say we think you are a good enough writer to pull it off if you made the effort. Not to say you're not making any effort. You know what I mean.

    Also, everything Shadowknight said.
    Last edited by SaintRidley; 2013-04-09 at 12:33 AM.
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    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I've been thinking about this thread all day, and I think I've figured out part of the problem, at least for an author. The main problem with including more LGBT characters—from the point of view of a straight author—is that I run the very high risk of talking out my ass. I do not know the first thing about the LGBT experience; I have had many close friends who are gay, I'm very comfortable around gay people, but I would never claim to really understand their experience. And that leaves me with a catch-22. If I don't include LGBT characters, then I'm not being inclusive; if I do include them, then I'm presuming to speak for an often-oppressed minority to which I do not belong. How do I solve that?
    I guess in a mostly gender neutral world like the Stickiverse gay people wouldn't exactly have the same experiences as those in real life due to the lack of homophobia. So they would be written no differently than straight characters.

  14. - Top - End - #404
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    The main problem with including more LGBT characters—from the point of view of a straight author—is that I run the very high risk of talking out my ass. I do not know the first thing about the LGBT experience; I have had many close friends who are gay, I'm very comfortable around gay people, but I would never claim to really understand their experience.
    I've mentioned this before, but I think Vaarsuvius being of indeterminate sex and orientation is one of the best examples of inclusiveness in fantasy literature, precisely because it undermines reader assumptions about what the "true" characterization of women/gays/lesbians really is. Thank you so much for that, really.

    I tend to agree with Shadowknight that writing LGBT characters as if they were straight is a good thing -- or, at least, a "good enough" thing in the context that we're discussing. By way of comparison, making Roy black doesn't necessitate that you have a profound understanding of black experiences, especially since the cultural context of blackness may have a different meaning or no meaning within a fantasy setting.

    While some real-world elements of LGBT experiences might naturally transfer to a fantasy setting, that doesn't mean that one would have to hammer on them within the context of a story.

    As a thought experiment: if (say) Hinjo or O-Chul had been given a one-panel reference to having a boyfriend, I don't think you would have had many folks leaping down your throat about misrepresenting gay experience. I could be wrong, but that's my intuition.

  15. - Top - End - #405
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    people still think saying "men and women are different" is the same as saying "men and women are not equal".(this is more aimed at i guess the second to last page)
    --------------------------------------------


    and yes. including LGTB characters (more than 1 or 2) often gets people thinking you are shoving RL issues down there throat. And i aggree for a second. Glee is a good example. there are times when it is obvious that its an episode about pro-rights. But based on comments i see i think that alot of people assume that any scene including the LG cast is put there to force exposure.

    I to prefer the notion of "Just write gay characters as normal people....like they are" and it doesnt have to deal with that drama .

    The thing is, that the reason there is an outcry for gay characters (such as a 'debacle' at Blizzcon that went HEAVILY into the forum after) is not so much that the LGTB world (i.e. the real world) is excluded, but the fact that they arent thought of. "gays arent real people" so when you include em it seems out of the ordinary.

    I think alot of people have less issue with not going out of ones way to make a gay character, as the notion that "most straight people forget that being gay is a possibility" which comes from the centuries what could be considered brainwashing when it comes to gender roles. Its the same thing people get mad at when mothers brainwash their daughters to be supportive and subservient to their husbands. I think i'm in risk of touching on to much (my mind works mostly of images and notions, and less with words so i work best with examples to prove my point) so i'll try to finish up.

    People aren't mad at you, or Blizzard or anyone else didn't include a or many LGTB characters, they/we are mad at the world for just assuming (basically) that we dont exist. "Oh, i never thought to make a gay character", "Oh? You aren't 'just' friends?" I'm affectionate to my boyfriend often in public because I dont care if people know we are a couple. So when someone assumes he is my father why do not correct them? Because they've already assumed and labeled me and created expectations in their head and I know if I shatter that delusion that i run the risk of making THEM uncomfortable.

    So i just squirm in my shoes and lie.


    ------------------------------
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    Last edited by Cerlis; 2013-04-09 at 01:42 AM.
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    Yeah, my bad.
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  17. - Top - End - #407
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    If I don't include LGBT characters, then I'm not being inclusive; if I do include them, then I'm presuming to speak for an often-oppressed minority to which I do not belong. How do I solve that?
    By making the LGBT characters also the two characters who have an ambiguous gender and are not sexually active (Hint Varsuuvius and Inkyrius Hint). Then again that would be giving the subtle message that LGBT relationships are doomed to failure. Then again all the elves who aren't Lirian are androgynous so whose to say how many genders they have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Well, I don't speak for everyone (or anyone at all, really), but in my personal opinion, I'd rather see LGBTQ+ characters written exactly as if they were straight. I don't need a sob story about coming to grips with sexuality, I don't need it addressed or justified or explained. Having a character who says "that's his husband" or one who flirts with everyone (like Sabine, yes, but without the "evil succubus" thing), or even having two background characters of the same gender holding hands/kissing would be enough. (snip!).
    This so much. I cannot talk for others, but I know that I am so starved for representation that an important character being gay without any subplots attached would be fine for me. Besides, much of the "gay experience" comes from how society perceives gays today. In a fantasy society without particular prejudices about homosexuality, there would be not many differences between a gay character and a straight one. Not more than you can find between a straight man and a straight woman anyway.

    Having a gay character does not necessarily mean having to deal with issues of identity, aceptation and so on. I know I would not like to have that extensively treated in a comic like the OotS. It is not what I am looking for here. I can think at least in a mainstream comic that started well depicting an homosexual couple... and then spent a unholy quantity of pages dealing with their feelings and whatnot while I was like "RARRRR go beat some Sentinels already".

    You can just have a fun Rogue character who happens to have a thing for redheads of the male persuasion, and maybe have him get a relationship at some point. No special treatment needed there. (This is obviously not a suggestion, but an example of the kind of stuff I would be happy to see someday in high quality fantasy). That way you avoid another problem that depictions of gay people often have in media... it is always a "coming out" history with lots of angst sprinkled.

    So a fantasy comic is exactly the place where you can have a gay character just for the hell of it... V could be a gay male in a gay marriage with two adopted kids, and not one iota of the comic would have to be changed. In fact, Haley feeling comfortable sharing a room with V always made me think of the character as either a woman or a gay male. Again, not a suggestion, but an example.

    Other two good examples would be Roy or Durkon. In the Oots verse it would seem that racism intra species is not an issue. People from the same culture comes in all the colours and shapes. Durkon is brownish and I seem to remember that the High Priest was white, but there was not one remark to indicate he view Durkon any different than he saw any other dwarf. Roy does not need to react specially bad to slavery, because in this world slavery is an equal opportunities business. You just have a bunch of different coloured people hanging together and that is never an issue. And why would it need to be? It is not in this world.

    That was a wall of text, sorry.

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    I always considered Hinjo to be gay. He has shown no interest in girls (bonus comic). There's no proof, it probably even is not enough to see it as actual "hint", but I for myself find it interesting to consider him as that. Especially as it does not matter at all for the story.

    It's like Dumbledore being gay in Harry Potter. Yes, he is. No, it's never stated. You might see what is in the books as hints, but you do not have to. And it has no bearing on/for the story at all. Id' have worked just the same if he just had been the very best friend of Grindelwald without any sexual component (any maybe that is exactly what was).
    Last edited by Copperdragon; 2013-04-09 at 05:38 AM.
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    Rich, you've only got one skin color (and no fangs), but yet you include people of different colors and races even. You can do that because race is but a minor issue in the comic, and not a cause of problems. Likewise you can include characters of other sexualities, provided those issues don't take a center role.

    You could even make it a central issue, but that would probably require some more research if you intend to base the problems of your characters, in that society, on problems real people, in this society, have. The notion that people with characteristic x can only be represented or advocated effectively by people with the very same characteristic is, frankly, discriminatory in itself. And a bummer for toddlers, infants, the demented, the sick, mentally ill people, low iq people, etc. All these groups are represented by people that aren't part of their category.
    And once again, Probability proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot.

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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperdragon View Post
    It's like Dumbledore being gay in Harry Potter. Yes, he is. No, it's never stated. You might see what is in the books as hints, but you do not have to. And it has no bearing on/for the story at all. Id' have worked just the same if he just had been the very best friend of Grindelwald without any sexual component (any maybe that is exactly what was).
    You realize that Rowling's treatment of Dumbledore's sexuality is very far from being universally acclaimed as The Right Way To Do It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    You realize that Rowling's treatment of Dumbledore's sexuality is very far from being universally acclaimed as The Right Way To Do It.
    I can understand her, though. Harry Potter is already banned is some places because "it taughts black magic to children".

    Can you imagine the outrage she would have get had she made Dumbledore openly gay in the book?. So she made him gay in an interview outside of the books. Not the bravest move ever, to be sure, but hey, at least it is something. But I think I am going too real-world here, sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Transsexuals identify as the opposite sex, and associate roles and behaviors traditionally tied to that sex as conductive to their goal(Of being as "like" that sex as possible.).
    Thus they mimic those behaviors, often assigning more importance to them than people actually of that sex to make up for thier lack of primary sexual characteristics.

    Gender roles are mostly a social construct. There are a few carry-overs from hunter/gatherer times, or ones that make use of the male's higher upper-body strength, but the rest? Totally irrelevant.
    Transsexuality has nothing to do with gender roles and claiming that trans people perpetuate gender roles anymore than cis people is such a tired trope. Trans people's gender presentation is just as varied as cis people's, it's not our fault that the media and people often convolute stuff.

    Re; experiences: I feel you need both, but there needs to be a balance. Never having a story elements that actually work with a queer character's sexuality or gender for example is sorta ignoring the fact that those aspects of them exist. (Off course it has to make sense within the world setup.) Basically you just want variety, because how much someone's sexuality is part of their person varies from person to person, just like what issues they face with regards to it. So you need both, characters for who their sexuality isn't a big part of their story character and characters for who it is, because ignoring differences isn't really productive either. (Though that's something that's a bit more likely to be explored in non-fantasy stories I'd imagine.)
    Last edited by Astrella; 2013-04-09 at 06:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    As far as the treatment of LGBT characters in media is concerned, why not look at the treatment of Captain Jack Harkness in Dr. Who and Torchwood? This is a character who comes from a time when all this gender-specific stuff is a long way in the past, and who is written by a gay man (Russell T. Davies). As far as I can tell, he's treated exactly the same as a straight character (albeit a little bit more flamboyant, but that's his personality!) who just happens to kiss a man every now and again.

    Of course, like Rich I'm looking at this from the outside, as it were, so I'd be interested to hear what actual LGBT people think of the character?

  25. - Top - End - #415
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    The Succubus's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Trans people are remarkably straightforward once you actually chat with them. Apparently they like board & video games, chocolate and meeting people. =3

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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    We're actually not all like that, thanks for speaking for all of us though.

    I understand Rich's point and back him on it. I don't read OotS for the queer material, I read it because it's a gaming comic and funny. If I wanted queer material, I'd read Rain or QC or something.

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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    What is this 'meeting people' you speak of?
    Things to avoid:

    "Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."

  28. - Top - End - #418
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    You realize that Rowling's treatment of Dumbledore's sexuality is very far from being universally acclaimed as The Right Way To Do It.
    I did not comment on that. I used him as example for it being there, not on "How (not) to handle it". I merely said "It's there and I, personally, consider it for Hinjo to be there as well, because, well, I find it somewhat funny/interesting".
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  29. - Top - End - #419
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Am I the only one who doesn't care about representation in frequency? I care about how different genders/races/types of sexuals are portrayed, but I don't care how often they're portrayed.

    It has been pointed out that there are significantly more males than females in this comic. Rich is male, so it would presumably be easier for him to write a male character. Personally, I am not so interested in having an equal number of each gender represented if the cost is a comic that is less frequently updated or not as good. Especially when I do not really believe how frequently they are represented is of relevance.

    Female leaders is a slightly different story. While it is already hard for a male to write a competent male leader, and a competent female leader would be even harder for a male to depict, I would support it anyways. There are undoubtedly female children reading this comic, and it sends a strong message for them to see admirable adult women in power. I would gladly deal with a less frequently updated comic for that.

    That being said, what the Giant said about the risks of including a character he is not necessarily equipped to write as easily is true. While it would be interesting to see a female leader as competent as some of the male leaders we've seen, it's not necessary to have one nor does it speak ill of the comic if it doesn't.
    Last edited by WoLong; 2013-04-09 at 07:46 AM.
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  30. - Top - End - #420
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    Default Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by WoLong View Post
    Am I the only one who doesn't care about representation in frequency? I care about how different genders/races/types of sexuals are portrayed, but I don't care how often they're portrayed.
    I also do not care much. I also have no idea why so many do.
    Yes, it can be an expression of racism/sexism if group X is underrepresented/presented in a bad light, but it does not have to mean that.
    I even find current mainstream media silly which aim to "just cater for every group equally". If a story does not require a strong woman/orc, I really do not see the point in writing it in "just to have it".

    I also find it a bit strange as we're reading a work here from an author who has shown in his work that he does not have strong, "strong politically incorrect" prejudices against this or that group, so I think the entire issue should "just rest".

    Not every story has to make a point about X being equal, where X is every possible race, gender, orientation, philosophy and every possible combination of them. It simply gets silly and overclouds the actual telling of the story.

    If it is addressed I think a story should pick one or two and elevate them to "I have a point" and the others can slide. And OotS *did* pick something: Can you kill based on race (or more exactly, based on alignment listed in the MM) and the clear answer is "No". It also picked another thing (and I like it this has no RL parallel at all): Can you discriminate based on Character Class or Class Features? And the answer is also No. (Roy, Tarquin etc)
    Why does Rich also have to address gayness or gender and whatnot of all sorts? Not every fantasy story that is told has the requirement to also address the "Big Issues of Life", like equalty of gender, race, whatnot. It actually looks silly if some work attempts that (just watch any show (in the OotS-verse, of course) that comes out these days with the "usual mix of ethnicities, ranging from Human over Elf, to Half orc, Assimar (mix of Donkey and Celestial), Tiefling and an equal mix of strong females and males everywhere").
    It'd be different if the story here in question would explicitly show women/halflings as weak, catering to RL stereotypes and being totally useless*, but as that is really not happening, I'd, personally and in no way asking anyone not-to-do-it!, say this entire discussion belongs beyond the sideline of "we could discuss political correctness (and I think this is what it is in the very end), but let's rather enjoy the story (which does not discriminate racially/sexually)".

    PS: With me saying "I find it silly in general for any story", I do not mean that it's silly in general or consider anyone who said anything here to be silly.

    * Please do not call me out on "But the Flumphs are shown as totally useless!". No, they have romance and feelings as well!
    Last edited by Copperdragon; 2013-04-09 at 07:49 AM.
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