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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    It is also plausible to trigger some traps on someone looking at them. Put them behind an illusionary wall. Mirror of Opposition would be the classic. A Medusa?.
    Hiding a symbol of X behind an illusion would also fit that strategy.
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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    Nonsense. The Draketooths did this because they believed it was necessary for the greater good. Belkar and Xykon inflict pain for laughs.
    Which is funny, considering that one of Girard's greatest fears was Soon using "the greater good" to justify something atrocious. Hypocrite, much?
    A game is a fictional construct created for the sake of the players, not the other way around. If you have a question "How do I keep X from happening at my table," and you feel that the out-of-game answer "Talk the the other people at your table" won't help, then the in-game answers "Remove mechanics A, B, and/or C, impose mechanics L, M, and/or N" will not help either.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad30 View Post
    I wonder what the best defense is against tru seeing.
    I am seeing some possible plans.

    Create a giant funnel room completely filled by a dangerous whirlwind. Line the walls with razors and swords. Put something lethal at the bottom.

    Lace the room with shadow magic bridges and shadow magic staircases. Walking within room inflicts an easy save or balance check, or be flung into the walls and down the funnel. Flying within the room inflicts a hard save, or be flung into the walls and down the funnel.

    One with True Seeing is forced to Fly, and face round after round saves. Clan Draketooth can just waltz around and make the Balance checks.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    We have no actual evidence that this was an epic spell. None. We've had people ASSERT that it was epic magic, but they've provided no evidence.

    I'm not even sure where the evidence that Girard, a known multiclass character could CAST epic magic is, note that it's perfectly possible to be a pure caster and epic level and not have epic magic, and that Girard had levels in Ranger.

    Really, what did the spell do that can't be explained by a non-epic phantasm?
    When Roy said the spell had to be Girard's and that he'd never heard of a phantasm that powerful despite being lectured on the subject by his accomplished illusion-specializing father, the impression I had was Epic.

    It's not exactly crucial to my argument that the spell be "Epic" as opposed to "really, really powerful" so this strikes me as a bit of an odd angle to hit me at -- like your issue is more with me calling it Epic than my actual point. Well, I don't care about that particular pedantry, and short of somebody saying the spell is powerful but explicitly non-Epic I'm gonna keep assuming that it is, sorry if that bothers you for some obscure reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    And Nale breaking the spell for a joke doesn't weaken what Elan did at all.
    Yes, it does. It's not unique any more that somebody can break through an EPIC () or otherwise SUPER-POWERFUL spell through nonmagical means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    The Order of the Stick would still have been stuck without him, The Linear Guild could still have gotten free even if Nale had been stuck (Z could have pulled Nale out of the spell area or someone could have broken enchantment or any of a dozen other ways given that three full casters were still loose on that side).
    That Elan still helped his party even if Nale managed the same feat is not something I disputed.
    Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2013-06-11 at 06:56 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tragak View Post
    Which is funny, considering that one of Girard's greatest fears was Soon using "the greater good" to justify something atrocious. Hypocrite, much?
    I would be among those that see a number of flaws in Girard's thinking. I would not rate this kidnapping stuff as Evil, but it does certainly seem non-Good to tolerate such as a standard practice. It certainly is a cruel tactic.

    If only Soon had known about this in life, Girard might have gotten the little war he was expecting.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    I have to agree with Dandelion. However, it's a little consolation that Elan broke the spell by himself, while Nale had Zz'ditri actively trying to pull him out of the illusion, which probably helped him.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    I would be among those that see a number of flaws in Girard's thinking. I would not rate this kidnapping stuff as Evil, but it does certainly seem non-Good to tolerate such as a standard practice. It certainly is a cruel tactic.

    If only Soon had known about this in life, Girard might have gotten the little war he was expecting.
    ... kidnapping babies is Evil. There may be the greater motivation of 'kidnapping newborns and brainwashing them is the only way I can see of protecting this gate', but it is still absolutely and incredibly Evil.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gopher View Post
    I have to agree with Dandelion. However, it's a little consolation that Elan broke the spell by himself, while Nale had Zz'ditri actively trying to pull him out of the illusion, which probably helped him.
    Thanks! You know, venting about it kinda helped. I now feel obligated to note that I otherwise thought the strip was hilarious. I love the getup on King Nale and Queen Sabine.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    ... kidnapping babies is Evil. There may be the greater motivation of 'kidnapping newborns and brainwashing them is the only way I can see of protecting this gate', but it is still absolutely and incredibly Evil.
    Yeeeaaah, I think the best comparison based on "they consider it for the greater good" is to Tarquin or Malack. And Tarquin and Malack are in no way less evil than Xykon--just differently evil.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    ... kidnapping babies is Evil. There may be the greater motivation of 'kidnapping newborns and brainwashing them is the only way I can see of protecting this gate', but it is still absolutely and incredibly Evil.
    True, kidnapping babies from their parents is without a doubt an Evil act, but we don't know if that's the case here (do we?).

    Besides, I'd rather be in the Draketooth clan than any of the horrible, constantly warring authoritatian kingdoms in the Western Continent.
    Last edited by Eloi; 2013-06-11 at 07:28 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eloi View Post
    True, kidnapping babies from their parents is without a doubt an Evil act, but we don't know if that's the case here (do we?).
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html

    Besides, I'd rather be in the Draketooth clan than any of the horrible, constantly warring authoritatian kingdoms in the Western Continent.
    That's your choice tho. Kinda not cricket to make it on someone else's behalf without consulting the other parent.

    We also, not that it matters, have no idea what type of society Penelope was living in at the time 15 years ago.
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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Ooh, okay. I missed that one.

    That's your choice tho. Kinda not cricket to make it on someone else's behalf without consulting the other parent.

    We also, not that it matters, have no idea what type of society Penelope was living in at the time 15 years ago.
    Well, I assume it was pretty bad, but yeah, I thought maybe some of the members were there voluntarily. My mistake.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    This strongly suggests that you do not understand how "proof" works. You have not seen proof that Malack was affected by the runes. However, this is far from proof that he wasn't affected by the runes.
    The SRD and strip #892 are all the proof I need. If you want to convince me that a Vampire was affected by a mind-affecting effect you need to show me where in the comic Malack or Durkon has swirly eyes. The burden of proof is on you to convince me.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppy Appletree View Post
    I'm not sure if it's been pointed out already, but this plan was foreshadowed more than 300 strips ago.
    Nice catch. The most likely member of the Linear Guild to notice that the otherwise symmetrical hexagonal room has an oddly shaped corner is Count Durkon, using his Dwarven ability to detect unusual stonework. That won't dispel the illusion; like the Ogre in Roy's Archon's module, Durkon may become curious and go to investigate; if he touches the "wall" Durkon will get a Will save, which is bad for the heroes. Durkon is a Vampiric Dwarf Cleric, with Good Will Saves, High Wisdom (including the +2 bonus from the Vampire Template) and a +2 racial bonus to saves against spells and spell-like effects.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Leorik View Post
    The SRD and strip #892 are all the proof I need.
    That is evidence, not proof. "Proof" implies absolute certainty. We don't know for sure that undead are immune to the rune effect because we don't know for sure what the rune effect is. I don't think anyone is trying to convince you that Malack was affected by the runes, but that it is possible that he was affected by the runes. Given that epic magic can bypass immunities, I think that is true. (Though it's improbable; it certainly seems like he wasn't affected at all, and there are several pieces of evidence that point in that direction.)
    Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2013-06-11 at 08:03 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eloi View Post
    True, kidnapping babies from their parents is without a doubt an Evil act, but we don't know if that's the case here (do we?).

    Besides, I'd rather be in the Draketooth clan than any of the horrible, constantly warring authoritatian kingdoms in the Western Continent.
    Is it, though, in a D&D context? Certainly it'd be from our own societal viewpoint, but you can reasonably argue in some circumstances it reflects Lawful Neutral (our government will confiscate/brainwash your children, etc.) or Chaotic Neutral (we don't think there's anything particularly special about the societal expectation of 2 parents per kid, or in this case, either way the child is being raised by one of the parents, it's just that which parent raises the child gets swapped).

    Now, for the Lawful Neutral side you'd basically have to be in the absolute extreme of it, and even then it's probably swinging towards Lawful Evil. But on the chaotic side, is rejecting the societal notion that a parent has rights to be involved in their child's raising a necessarily Evil act? Especially if the other parent will be involved in the child's raising instead, and (arguably; at least they'd see it this way) the child isn't being harmed by being raised by the clan? I lean towards no, but I'm certainly interested in the counter-argument.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    ...My "morally justified" argument detector's readings just went off the proverbial scale.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Leorik View Post
    Nice catch. The most likely member of the Linear Guild to notice that the otherwise symmetrical hexagonal room has an oddly shaped corner is Count Durkon, using his Dwarven ability to detect unusual stonework. That won't dispel the illusion; like the Ogre in Roy's Archon's module, Durkon may become curious and go to investigate; if he touches the "wall" Durkon will get a Will save, which is bad for the heroes. Durkon is a Vampiric Dwarf Cleric, with Good Will Saves, High Wisdom (including the +2 bonus from the Vampire Template) and a +2 racial bonus to saves against spells and spell-like effects.
    I think Durkon is mostly disabled by being controlled - he seems unlikely to notice such a thing, especially if distracted with the circle which we will likely be told to help examine or disable.

    Assuming the fiends are a piscoloth and a barbed devil, they're most likely going to lose a direct conflict. Both of those can summon more creatures, and the those summoned creatures can summon even more, so in a few rounds they'll be swimming in fiends. Even if summons summoning is not allowed, the piscoloth can make 8 tentacles to paralyze (DC 16, but everyone botches a save now and then). Also, they are outnumbered even without Tarquin and they have summoned tanks. Their biggest weakness right now is that all the non-summoned creatures are casters - however the strongest dispelling they have is Greater Dispel Magic and I'm guessing Elan's caster level isn't going to cut it. As such, because a TPK would just be anticlimatic, direct conflict is unlikely. Of course if Elan HAS dispel magic and it's greater variety, they could have a decent chance take down the Linear Guild with some well aimed sneak attacks at those weak against archers(Zz), lots of fake-Xykon-killing slashes (On Malack?) and some dispelling (on Nale's lowered caster level).

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    davidbofinger is taking issue with the word simple, not the word phantasm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I think Malack is simply venting his anger at Nale. It's clearly more then a simple phantasm.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianSt View Post
    With the Linear Guild not be really affected buy the runes, I think that is not set up by Girard (or at least it is not Epic). Because compared with other Epic magic we have seen, this seems (at least to me) not-so-epic. It seems that even Z resisted it completely and Nale couldn't have been long in there. Even if there would have been Girard's pals to "finish them off" nearby, it would have been a normal fight and no coup-de-gracing (or something like that).
    Here's the thing: we have been debating how the runes work ever since "Xykon" and "Redcloak" showed up. But other than knowing that they create phantasmal Lotus Eater Traps that can only be escaped by realizing the perfect world is an illusion, we know very little about them. We don't know if they are based on a spell, if they are a special trap, if they are epic level magic, how much the gold piece and XP cost to pay for six of them was, etc.

    Normal mind-affecting spells and effects do not work on Undead type creatures in the D&D 3.5 rules. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells/effects in the D&D 3.5 rules. Unless noted otherwise, The Giant uses the D&D 3.5 rules as the rules of reality in the "OotS"-verse. Therefore, unless the comic depicts otherwise, Malack, Durkon, the Snail from "Snips, Snails & Dragon Tales", Xykon, the Mummy Queen Amontop of Sandy Valley and the undead doctor the Oracle has on staff are all immune to the rune traps. You can't claim that the runes are based on a unique epic-level spell that Girard researched to affect Undead if none of the Undead in the comic are shown to be affected.

    As for Z and the fiends, all three of them have spell resistance. They have a good chance to have ignored the rune trap, and given the nonchalant way the Barbed Devil and Piscoloth are marching down the hallway and how Z is tugging at Nale, the evidence is that the runes aren't that powerful.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by r2d2go View Post
    I'm guessing Elan's caster level isn't going to cut it.
    Why? It's about on-par with Malack's and Durkon's.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith View Post
    But on the chaotic side, is rejecting the societal notion that a parent has rights to be involved in their child's raising a necessarily Evil act?
    That kind of seems to give Chaos a blank check to do what it wants for so long as its behavior can be framed in terms of "rejecting the societal notion that [X]". I think kidnapping kids goes beyond "rejecting society" and is causing direct harm to the parent, much like Xykon killing people at random goes beyond "rejecting societal notions that life is sacred".

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by r2d2go View Post
    Assuming the fiends are a piscoloth and a barbed devil, they're most likely going to lose a direct conflict. Both of those can summon more creatures, and the those summoned creatures can summon even more, so in a few rounds they'll be swimming in fiends. Even if summons summoning is not allowed, the piscoloth can make 8 tentacles to paralyze (DC 16, but everyone botches a save now and then).
    The Barbed Devil and Piscoloth were summoned (technically "called") via a planar binding spell, so they have the ability to summon other Devils and Yugoloths; however any Devils and Yugoloths they summon will lose the ability to summon other fiends for the duration of their being summoned. That would make for a tough fight in the OotS's condition, but not impossible, especially if V and Blackwing show up.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    ...My "morally justified" argument detector's readings just went off the proverbial scale.
    Mine too. No conversation on whether or not kidnapping babies is a good idea, please.

    Also, only Nale was affected by the trap. I thought I made that clear, but I guess not. Since it seemed obvious to me that at least 2/3rds of the current Linear Guild were going to walk right past the runes due to undead immunity, I never considered spending much effort on showing how they got past them. I could have just had Z casting Greater Dispel Magic on Nale, but I came up with a joke instead because it's a comedy and sometimes the drama needs to take a hit so that I can squeeze some humor in before **** gets real again.

    Sorry if that undercut Elan's accomplishment for anyone, but my feeling with Elan's victory was that it was an important step for Elan that just so happened to save the day—not that he saved the day and it just happened to be an important step for him. If someone is illiterate, reading a sign is a really big deal, no matter how easily it comes to other people. If that sign happens to also be the EXIT sign when the building is on fire, so much the better.
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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    That kind of seems to give Chaos a blank check to do what it wants for so long as its behavior can be framed in terms of "rejecting the societal notion that [X]". I think kidnapping kids goes beyond "rejecting society" and is causing direct harm to the parent, much like Xykon killing people at random goes beyond "rejecting societal notions that life is sacred".
    It does cause harm to the parent who doesn't see their kid anymore, but in the situations that the Draketooths get themselves in, one of the parents will basically never see the kid again. Is it fundamentally Evil for them to make the decision that the parent who will never see the kid again isn't them? Morally speaking, how much different is that than when one of their women does the same sort of thing, except in this case (presumably) leaving before delivery?

    In terms of alignment implications, I'd GUESS that the most fundamental issue is the welfare of the child, not the parents (so if they were kidnapping kids to do something horrible to them, then the Xykon analogy holds, but if not, it's weaker). And if the child ends up in at least a good a situation as would have been otherwise the case, is that truly an Evil act?

    To put it a different way, what if they're essentially rescuing the kids from a life of poverty? What if the other parent was potentially abusive? What, if any situations, would make that decision qualify as a mildly Good act instead of an Evil one?

    And of course you also get into the question of how much the (presumably) Good cause of saving the world from the Snarl counts? It's not necessarily Chaotic to act for the "greater good", but that would also seem to factor into the question of whether it's truly an Evil act.

    Honestly, I don't know what the answer is. But it certainly doesn't seem cut and dry. Especially since it's not like the Draketooths go out and murder the other parents to try and bury the evidence (which would be more like the Xykon approach).

    edit due to Giant comment: I don't think it's a good idea. At all. It's SERIOUSLY messed up. But I'm somewhat interested in the alignment implications of it. Especially since seriously messed up people aren't necessarily evil (see: Miko). Conversation over from my end though, don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole on this one.
    Last edited by mhsmith; 2013-06-11 at 08:50 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Also, only Nale was affected by the trap. I thought I made that clear, but I guess not. Since it seemed obvious to me that at least 2/3rds of the current Linear Guild were going to walk right past the runes due to undead immunity, I never considered spending much effort on showing how they got past them. I could have just had Z casting Greater Dispel Magic on Nale, but I came up with a joke instead because it's a comedy and sometimes the drama needs to take a hit so that I can squeeze some humor in before **** gets real again.
    Hey, thanks for clarifying! Any chance we can get Word of Giant on the spell explicitly being Epic? I thought it was, but it's gotten a little heated for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Sorry if that undercut Elan's accomplishment for anyone, but my feeling with Elan's victory was that it was an important step for Elan that just so happened to save the day—not that he saved the day and it just happened to be an important step for him. If someone is illiterate, reading a sign is a really big deal, no matter how easily it comes to other people. If that sign happens to also be the EXIT sign when the building is on fire, so much the better.
    Well, I'll live. I'm just a little bit biased when it comes to seeing Elan be AMAZING, but he's still pretty cool. We'll always have the epic Song of FREEDOM!

    Sorry mhsmith, looks like we've got to drop it so I can't give a reply.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Mine too. No conversation on whether or not kidnapping babies is a good idea, please.

    Also, only Nale was affected by the trap. I thought I made that clear, but I guess not. Since it seemed obvious to me that at least 2/3rds of the current Linear Guild were going to walk right past the runes due to undead immunity, I never considered spending much effort on showing how they got past them. I could have just had Z casting Greater Dispel Magic on Nale, but I came up with a joke instead because it's a comedy and sometimes the drama needs to take a hit so that I can squeeze some humor in before **** gets real again.

    Sorry if that undercut Elan's accomplishment for anyone, but my feeling with Elan's victory was that it was an important step for Elan that just so happened to save the day—not that he saved the day and it just happened to be an important step for him. If someone is illiterate, reading a sign is a really big deal, no matter how easily it comes to other people. If that sign happens to also be the EXIT sign when the building is on fire, so much the better.
    I think most people second-guessed themselves because they figured Girard would have some Epic mojo to make his phantasms affect those normally immune to such things, like the undead. That said, I figured it was just as plausible that Malack and Durkon's will saves are just that good. (Being mid- to high level characters with a class with the good Will save progression, Wisdom as a primary stat, and whatever crazy bonuses vampires get.)

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rodneyAnonymous View Post
    That is evidence, not proof. "Proof" implies absolute certainty.
    Proof is a confirmation of a fact by evidence. I provided links to the SRD regarding the rules for mind-affecting effects, phantasms and undead, pointed out the lack of swirly eyes on Malack or Durkon in strip #892, pointed out how exasperated Malack was with Nale, and how Malack wanted to leave Nale behind as dead weight. The preponderance of this evidence is sufficient proof in my eyes that Malack and Durkon are immune to the runes.

    Likewise, I provided links to the SRD regarding the rules for Spell Resistance, and links to Drow and Barbed Devils. (Piscoloths are not in the SRD.) I see compelling evidence that Z and the fiends were protected by their SR.

    Most importantly, it makes a better story for Nale to be the only member of the Guild affected. Elan achieved a notable measure of character growth and managed to free everyone from their illusions (Roy and Haley by pointing out they were caught in a dream, Belkar and Mr. Scruffy with bardic music). Nale was not only the only member of his team affected by the runes, Malack ridiculed Nale's weakness, and Nale's means of realizing he was dreaming was a result of his egomania.

    The evidence adds up to Malack, Durkon, Z and the fiends ignoring the runes. I doubt the Barbed Devil and Psicoloth even knew anything was happening, and Durkon was ordered by Malack to keep marching.

    EDIT: And now we have Word of The Giant: only Nale got affected by the runes.
    Last edited by Sir_Leorik; 2013-06-11 at 09:17 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Also, only Nale was affected by the trap. I thought I made that clear, but I guess not. Since it seemed obvious to me that at least 2/3rds of the current Linear Guild were going to walk right past the runes due to undead immunity, I never considered spending much effort on showing how they got past them. I could have just had Z casting Greater Dispel Magic on Nale, but I came up with a joke instead because it's a comedy and sometimes the drama needs to take a hit so that I can squeeze some humor in before **** gets real again.

    Sorry if that undercut Elan's accomplishment for anyone, but my feeling with Elan's victory was that it was an important step for Elan that just so happened to save the day—not that he saved the day and it just happened to be an important step for him. If someone is illiterate, reading a sign is a really big deal, no matter how easily it comes to other people. If that sign happens to also be the EXIT sign when the building is on fire, so much the better.
    Well, I for one thought that Nale's means of realizing he was stuck in an illusion only demonstrated how much of a buffoon he is.

  29. - Top - End - #329
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    The Hide skill.
    And total cover.

  30. - Top - End - #330
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    'Preciate the effort, but no...

    The problem's not that Nale negates Elan's internal character growth but that he severely diminishes the significance of what Elan's character growth managed to accomplish externally. He saved his team's butt and nonmagically broke through an Epic-level spell, which was pretty awesome! I love Elan and I loved this moment for him where he got to do something so important and unique. It now looks less awesome because apparently even Nale can do it as part of a joke, and if something can be achieved by a useless character as a joke it looks much less impressive that somebody else managed it by other means.

    So I would actually prefer to think Nale is emulating Elan and might have had a legitimate breakthrough -- at least then breaking through nonmagically would still be sort of special, with Elan and Nale both doing it because they are "evil opposites" and had epiphanies at the same time. I'm not sure how likely that is, but it could be interesting.
    You're missing the point of drama. Let's compare the original Star Wars to the Prequels.

    In the original, Obi Wan has an extremely dramatic duel with Vader, despite the choreography being lacklustre - the duel is about their history together, not the swordplay. It's one of the most memorable scenes in cinema (just typing this I'm hearing the music, and Luke yelling "Noooo!").

    In the prequels Yoda bounces around like a jackass, and they use force powers from the video game; nobody cares.

    When Elan freed them from the illusion, it came with a great personal insight; he realized what a child he'd been. Nale simply noticed that the world had become too easy.

    Imagine character A gets into a fistfight, and after getting beat up they realize that they had deserved it - they'd been acting like an ******* their whole lives. Character B gets into a fistfight, and laughs about it after being arrested.

    It's not what happened that mattered, but what the event MEANT that matters. Plenty of situations in OotS could be resolved with a wish spell; nonetheless, that doesn't diminish the achievement displayed by the characters. When Belkar went to warn Roy about Durkon, that was no great achievement - but his moment of selflessness was!

    Escaping the illusion was a foregone conclusion - everybody escapes eventually. What makes it dramatic is that Elan accomplished it through character growth, not that he accomplished it - if he hadn't grown, Roy would have noticed five minutes later. Ultimately it's not about the events, but about how they affect the characters we care about.
    ♪♫ Once I was the King of Thay, now I eat humble pie
    With my servant Eltab of the Hidden Layer, now I eat humble pie,
    I'm telling you I was the King of Thay, now I eat humble pie,
    And now I scribe for Elminster♫♪

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