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Thread: Word of Recall

  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Just for Defiant's sake and the sake of other bothered people -

    I personally sympathize, somewhat. I thought about Word of Recall when malack died, it was nagging at me a little, etc. No one likes to see characters play dumb, forget how a sword works, etc.

    But think about this, and about how impossible a situation it puts Rich in - do you really want the Order to have to give chase to a secret backup location every time they battle a high-level spellcaster? A backup location they don't even have a reason to know? When their primary mage can't teleport because a teleporting party never has a good reason to travel on foot anywhere and would have a heck of a time being realistically split as a party?

    I don't really have to want to read a plot chained to that. So I grimace a little but tell myself, like others said, that Malack didn't really have a ton of high-level spell slots.

    And to give even one more plausible reason for not having it - he also has a super-resourceful partner with a penchant for knowing how to get out of quick scrapes. Who knows what help he may have come to be relying on from his partner? Even a magical item with portable shelter - pretty sure those exist, right?
    Last edited by eras10; 2013-07-30 at 07:55 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filippo View Post
    The Giant has spoken, so be it.

    But...there is another possibility(that maybe the Giant don't want to spoil for us)

    A spell like Word of Recall who is extreamely useful in some circustancies, and you don't have to cast in advance...witch would occupy your highest level spell slots and could possibly gone unused or be redundancy with innate ability...witch you simply have to have always at hand...

    I, for once, would have put it in the staff...
    You ain't the only one to think that- we have no idea of what that staff can do or hold, do we? I've not heard a counter-argument to it yet, although it may feel like a cop-out to some.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    We do have a definition of Attack Action. "Attack" is a kind of Standard Action, thus it is an Action that happens to be an Attack. It is here in the table of standard actions. Under the list of "Actions" are things that are "Attacks".

    So, by the letter of the RAW, we have a perfectly reasonable definition. I think it is reasonable to allow Malack to cast Slay Living here. YMMV.
    Yeah, it's arguable whether casting a touch spell such as Slay Living (a Standard Action) and using it by making a touch attack in the same round counts as an "Attack Action" as intended by the rules, but I guess you could make a case for it.

    But anyway, Attack Action is definitely a thing, and casting Word of Recall definitely isn't an Attack Action. It's entirely possible that the wording is deliberate -- the designers may have been aware that without it, vampire druids and clerics would become essentially unkillable. So I think Giant's butt is covered here rules-wise, regardless of character motivations.
    Last edited by Kama; 2013-07-30 at 08:12 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by eras10 View Post
    Just for Defiant's sake and the sake of other bothered people -

    I personally sympathize, somewhat. I thought about Word of Recall when malack died, it was nagging at me a little, etc. No one likes to see characters play dumb, forget how a sword works, etc.

    But think about this, and about how impossible a situation it puts Rich in - do you really want the Order to have to give chase to a secret backup location every time they battle a high-level spellcaster? A backup location they don't even have a reason to know? When their primary mage can't teleport because a teleporting party never has a good reason to travel on foot anywhere and would have a heck of a time being realistically split as a party?

    I don't really have to want to read a plot chained to that. So I grimace a little but tell myself, like others said, that Malack didn't really have a ton of high-level spell slots.

    And to give even one more plausible reason for not having it - he also has a super-resourceful partner with a penchant for knowing how to get out of quick scrapes. Who knows what help he may have come to be relying on from his partner? Even a magical item with portable shelter - pretty sure those exist, right?
    All of this.

    From the POV of a DM running a campaign, that the Evil Master Of The Month can make at least one frustrating last second escape is a wonderful thing. The PCs grind through the entire dungeon so that the final sanctum is really the last possible refuge for their target. Then the big climatic battle.

    But from the point of view of literature, it just plain sucks. Fighting the same bad guys over and over again is torture, unless it is a personal nemesis of importance to a larger narrative. It might make for "clever" D&D playing, but it makes for terrible stories.

    I would also note some of these written in stone rules of D&D playing were only discovered by trial and error. Well, all these characters are playing "the game" for their first time. I think they are better at it than most of us were.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    I have a theory.

    If Malack had recalled, what exactly would Nale have done to his newborn child? He wouldn't have had his Protection from Daylight staff, meaning he'd be trapped at Bleedingham, leaving Nale ample time to kill Durkon and escape again.

    Perhaps...Malack attacked Nale as it was his best chance of trying to save his child and if he died, his child would be free.

    Unlikely, but it'd be nice to think so.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Actually, if you notice, all the actions listed as Attack actions are smaller font than Attack actions. You then have Cast a Spell back in the same size as Attack.

    In short, while casting a spell may be an attack, it does not appear to be (as written) an Attack Action. Once you've cast a spell, the touch itself may be an attack action, but the casting itself is not. Therefore, Malack can't cast Word of Recall OR Slay Living or any other Spell (unless he has one as a Free Action or in some form that allows him to use it as a move action or an attack action, maybe a daily ability from his deity?).
    Minor rules pendantry: while describing unarmed Attack actions, the SRD then says points out "Armed" Unarmed Attacks:

    "Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. "

    This is within the description of Attack actions. So a touch attack spell would seem to be an Attack action, RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Now to me, it is irrelevant. The way this plays out is awesome!
    Total agreement there!

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Where on Earth do people get Malack being paranoid and prepared? He's neither. Just because he does show some foresight and caution doesn't make him crazy-prepared. Or is it just the assumption that a high-level spellcaster has to be paranoid?
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    All of this.

    From the POV of a DM running a campaign, that the Evil Master Of The Month can make at least one frustrating last second escape is a wonderful thing. The PCs grind through the entire dungeon so that the final sanctum is really the last possible refuge for their target. Then the big climatic battle.

    But from the point of view of literature, it just plain sucks. Fighting the same bad guys over and over again is torture, unless it is a personal nemesis of importance to a larger narrative. It might make for "clever" D&D playing, but it makes for terrible stories.

    I would also note some of these written in stone rules of D&D playing were only discovered by trial and error. Well, all these characters are playing "the game" for their first time. I think they are better at it than most of us were.
    Definitely. It's a cop-out, and the only reason Redcloak got to use it is because major consequences were directly linked to him taking such an easy exit. Plus at this point, Recall has already been used once, and retreading the same gotcha move would be lousy storytelling.
    Last edited by exenia; 2013-07-30 at 10:40 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Where on Earth do people get Malack being paranoid and prepared? He's neither. Just because he does show some foresight and caution doesn't make him crazy-prepared. Or is it just the assumption that a high-level spellcaster has to be paranoid?
    When you have a slam attack that inflicts negative levels, you don't study exotic grappling techniques that are only marginally better than what you can do on your own unless you're paranoid about encountering enemies protected from your natural attack and need a reliable way to immobilize protected spellcasters.

    When your vampiric nature is a secret, you don't build backdoors into spells you help design with clerics you are friendly with unless you're paranoid about giving yourself an edge over them should the two of you ever come to blows.

    When you don't plan anything more strenuous for the day than chilling with your friend on the terrace, drinking tea, you don't prepare the 1-2 fatal combination of Harm and Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds unless you're paranoid about an unexpected adversary dropping in.

    Quote Originally Posted by exenia View Post
    Plus at this point, Recall has already been used once, and retreading the same gotcha move would be lousy storytelling.
    Because once you've established that clerics of sufficiently high level have an eject button that can instantly remove them from dangerous situations, the important thing is to never show it used ever again.

    This is a technique of literary foreshadowing known as Chekov's Gun, which holds that as soon as you introduce a plot point, it should never intrude on the narrative again once it's served its intended purpose, regardless of how much sense it would make. The specific example in literature comes from a character in a Chekov play who loaded a shotgun in the first act so that the audience understood that this character was a hunter. The gun, having served its intended purpose, remained on the mantle throughout the second and third act of the play.

    [/sarcasm]
    Last edited by BenjCano; 2013-07-30 at 11:17 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    When you have a slam attack that inflicts negative levels, you don't study exotic grappling techniques that are only marginally better than what you can do on your own unless you're paranoid about encountering enemies protected from your natural attack and need a reliable way to immobilize protected spellcasters.

    When your vampiric nature is a secret, you don't build backdoors into spells you help design with clerics you are friendly with unless you're paranoid about giving yourself an edge over them should the two of you ever come to blows.

    When you don't plan anything more strenuous for the day than chilling with your friend on the terrace, drinking tea, you don't prepare the 1-2 fatal combination of Harm and Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds unless you're paranoid about an unexpected adversary dropping in.
    Counter: when you rule an Empire with a Fist of Iron, you do all those things not because you are paranoid, but because you know there is whole groups of individuals out to get you.

    Malack's actions and choices of spells tell me his has grown used to being challenged regularly, and that he has so far survived without needing more than an extra Protection from Daylight (a SOP he was already using years ago when Nale was around). Complacency, rather than all-out paranoid preparedness, explains all his choices.

    You haven't addressed the problem of paranoia, though: where would he stop, according to you, preparing for the unexpected? How many of his limited number of high-level spell spots would he need to invest in protecting against one-in-a-million chances ("caught in the middle of a desert without a building to retreat to") rather than using them to prepare attack spells?

    If your answer is "1", he did. If your answer is "however many Rich decided upon +1" then this conversation is over, since you would never be satisfied, regardless. If your answer is "all" then he would have been useless for adventuring.

    Edit: Your argument might be that he should have prepared WoR instead of a second protection from daylight - but that spell is useless if he is under attack in his inner sanctum, which is where he normally would be under attack, since he no longer goes on adventures, and his enemies come to him.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-07-30 at 11:21 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Counter: when you rule an Empire with a Fist of Iron, you do all those things not because you are paranoid, but because you know there is whole groups of individuals out to get you.

    Malack's actions and choices of spells tell me his has grown used to being challenged regularly, and that he has so far survived without needing more than an extra Protection from Daylight (a SOP he was already using years ago when Nale was around). Complacency, rather than all-out paranoid preparedness, explains all his choices.

    You haven't addressed the problem of paranoia, though: where would he stop, according to you, preparing for the unexpected? How many of his limited number of high-level spell spots would he need to invest in protecting against one-in-a-million chances ("caught in the middle of a desert without a building to retreat to") rather than using them to prepare attack spells?

    If your answer is "1", he did. If your answer is "however many Rich decided upon +1" then this conversation is over, since you would never be satisfied, regardless. If your answer is "all" then he would have been useless for adventuring.

    Edit: Your argument might be that he should have prepared WoR instead of a second protection from daylight - but that spell is useless if he is under attack in his inner sanctum, which is where he normally would be under attack, since he no longer goes on adventures, and his enemies come to him.

    Grey Wolf
    I'll point you to my previous answer. Rich himself has addressed this, and I accept what he said even if it's not what I would have done. His story, his characters, his choice.

    EDIT TO RESPOND TO YOUR EDIT: The Order of the Stick had one break to stop and prepare spells when they went to the para-elemental plane to retrieve V. Logically, this also means that the Linear Guild prepared spells for the day. And on the LG's to do list was confront the Order, potentially deal with the Draketooth Clan, potentially deal with the protections around the Gate, and let us not forget, Tarquin suspected the involvement of a scene-chewing villain bent on world domination.

    Malack was NOT expecting to spend the day in his sanctum, but dealing with the above mentioned challenges and the other things he couldn't have foreseen or prepared for.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    Word of Recall is NOT a quadruple redundancy meant to protect Malack against sunlight.

    Word of Recall is a spell you use when the situation is completely FUBAR. If V disintegrated Tarquin, or if the Buffy the Vampire Slayer had secretly been a member of the Draketooth family (someone write that fanfic quick!), or if the final defense of the gate had been a triple Disjunction spell followed by a Maximized Sunbeam, or if Xykon hailed from a small town called "Meteor-Swarm Spam the Albino Lizard" and gotten homesick on teleporting in, or if Nale turned traitor with a secret weapon or to exploit a momentary weakness, or if an ancient copper dragon had come swooping in, or if, or if, or if...

    Just because WoR can be countered or negated through Dimensional Anchoring doesn't mean it's not a spell I wouldn't devote a spell slot to every day.

    Funny story, the only time I played a cleric in high level play he prepared WoR every single day, and used it exactly once. The party was unlucky and sandwiched between three advanced banshees and a cairn linnorn. The party's paladin and I were able to Recall away and avoided a TPK because of my obsessive preparation of WoR.
    Last edited by BenjCano; 2013-07-30 at 11:27 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    If people are going to argue that Malack should have been prepared to the fullest extent possible because he's paranoid, then logically, you should be arguing that he'd never leave the castle. Why leave your army behind? What if you're caught alone?

    At some point the preperations have to stop. It's not a "cop out". It's not bad storytelling. It's a character who never expected that situation to occur. If he'd spent every spell slot on protecting himself alone, he would be a completely useless cleric. And then we'd all be asking why he ever agreed to go out into the desert anyways, when he normally spends time in a castle full of loyal guards.


    Also, he did not research "exotic grappling techniques". He's a snake. That's what snakes do. Trying to call that paranoia is just ignoring the character completely.

    And I don't consider it paranoia to build a back door into a spell designed solely to negate your abilities. That's just common sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    Also, he did not research "exotic grappling techniques". He's a snake. That's what snakes do. Trying to call that paranoia is just ignoring the character completely.
    Malack: Tarquin has also taught me a variety of exotic holding techniques. Undignified, to be sure, but you will not escape.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    I'll point you to my previous answer.
    Yes, I saw that. Doesn't answer my question. Malack is a vampire Tyrant of an Empire that knows he is most likely to be attacked in his own palace. How is WoR a better choice than Protection from Daylight?

    WoR is a spell useful to adventurers who are unlikely to be attacked in his "inner sanctum". PfD is a spell useful to Vampires. Malack is not always out on adventure, but he is always a Vampire, and one trying to Tyrant over an Empire on an ongoing basis.

    Since you have already admitted you would only prepare one spell for life of death situations, then Malack already did just as well as you did, and then one better by carrying a spare. If he had been in the habit of preparing WoR instead of PfD, then nale's actions would have been different. But he, in his same-level-of-paranoia you would use (one spell for "FUBAR" situations), chose PfD, which from my PoV is a much better FUBAR spell for a vampire most likely to be attacked in his sanctuary.

    Edit: Even knowing he was going to be out and about, Malack and Tarquin were operating as if this was business as usual. Malack clearly saw the whole situation below his notice from the get-go. Why would he prepare any special spells, when his standard array has kept him alive for the last decade?

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  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    Because once you've established that clerics of sufficiently high level have an eject button that can instantly remove them from dangerous situations, the important thing is to never show it used ever again.

    This is a technique of literary foreshadowing known as Chekov's Gun, which holds that as soon as you introduce a plot point, it should never intrude on the narrative again once it's served its intended purpose, regardless of how much sense it would make. The specific example in literature comes from a character in a Chekov play who loaded a shotgun in the first act so that the audience understood that this character was a hunter. The gun, having served its intended purpose, remained on the mantle throughout the second and third act of the play.

    [/sarcasm]
    No. Because pulling Word of Recall willy-nilly would be less Chekov's Gun and more Three Stooges. It means there can't be any finality to a confrontation when they can just pull the same aggravating yoink over and over. It absolutely KILLS tension when you know without a doubt that a cleric can never be in real danger. It's a borderline cheat. It's an easy, unsatisfying way out.

    Imagine how much lamer the story progression would be if Redcloak had been completely successful in his escape and the phylactery never got threatened at all.

    Imagine if the Cleric of Loki had it prepared (and he had more reason than Malack to want it). He never would have fixed Belkar, and he'd be out of the reserve roster of potential reappearances.
    Last edited by exenia; 2013-07-30 at 11:37 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    That's not him researching anything, and that's more likely Tarquin saying "Hey Malack, lemme show you some moves in case you need to grapple"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    If he had been in the habit of preparing WoR instead of PfD, then nale's actions would have been different.
    100% this.

    Nale built a plan to defeat Malack, a cleric whom he knew well. And Nale's plan worked. That's the plot point you're looking at. Nale defeats Malack, without having to leave the battlefield, without a protracted battle. It was always going to happen in such a way as to satisfy this plot point. (He also didn't use a wooden stake -- I suspect because that might have been used to un-vamp Durkula.)

    For every "Malack should have done X," I say, "Nale would have planned Y to counter X." Because that's the plot point we're looking at. Defeating Malack, and Malack's habits, was Nale's plan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Yes, I saw that. Doesn't answer my question. Malack is a vampire Tyrant of an Empire that knows he is most likely to be attacked in his own palace. How is WoR a better choice than Protection from Daylight?
    I wonder if we're talking past each other. What I'm saying is not that WoR is the spell Malack should have had INSTEAD of Protection from Daylight. I'm saying that WoR is the spell to SUPPLEMENT PfD.

    WoR could have gotten Malack and/or Tarquin out of trouble if the T-man had botched a save vs. a disintegration happy wizard. PfD could not have. WoR could have gotten Malack and/or Tarquin out of trouble if they had rolled Buffy the Vampire Slayer on a random encounter table. PfD could not have. WoR could have gotten Malack and/or Tarquin out of trouble if they had found themselves the unwitting guest stars on 'When Xykon Attacks.' PfD could not have. WoR could have gotten Malack and/or Tarquin out of trouble if the Draketooth's secret weapon had been an alliance with a nearby ancient copper dragon. PfD could not have. And so on.

    I am not saying that Malack shouldn't have prepared PfD. If I was in his position, I would have prepared two castings and kept the backups in my staff, just like he did. But I would also have thought that the possibility of an unforeseen event bypassing or making my PfD meaningless was great enough that I would not risk my centuries old hide, and I would have the WoR ace in the hole. Not perfect, not uncounterable, but I would never put myself in a hostile or dangerous situation where I did not have the means of immediate escape. Personally escaping, mind. Not relying on Tarquin or Nale's pet wizard. That's just how I would roll if I was a centuries old vampire dedicated to my own survival.

    Quote Originally Posted by exenia View Post
    No. Because pulling Word of Recall willy-nilly would be less Chekov's Gun and more Three Stooges. It means there can't be any finality to a confrontation when they can just pull the same aggravating yoink over and over. It absolutely KILLS tension when you know without a doubt that a cleric can never be in real danger. It's a borderline cheat. It's an easy, unsatisfying way out.
    Wait, you mean that it would inconvenience a group of adventurers to have to deal with a reoccurring villain who wasn't interested in a stand-your-ground and fight until one of us drops duel to the death? You mean, that the group would have to neutralize the eject button with dimensional anchoring or with a caster on standby to counter or confront the villain in the lair itself in order to neutralize this advantage? I'll alert DMs everywhere. No more escape spells for villains. It kills tension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    That's not him researching anything, and that's more likely Tarquin saying "Hey Malack, lemme show you some moves in case you need to grapple"
    I'll paraphrase Roy. You can just say "I took Improved Grapple" as a feat. We do that stuff all the time around here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    I wonder if we're talking past each other. What I'm saying is not that WoR is the spell Malack should have had INSTEAD of Protection from Daylight. I'm saying that WoR is the spell to SUPPLEMENT PfD.
    OK, so your answer is indeed "had I been Malack, I would always prepare 2 PfD, and 1 WoR". In which case, Nale would have known this, and his ambush would have included a Dimensional Anchor as well as the Dispell. And you would be just as dead as Malack, since what killed him was complacency - thinking that a standard array of spells known by Nale would protect him from Nale.

    Oh, and since he would almost never used WoR for anything, Tarquin would think him less useful. I don't fancy my chances in a group like Tarquin's when the top boss thinks your usefulness is at an end. Wasting a spell slot* is a luxury usually only Good aligned groups can afford.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    WoR could have gotten Malack and/or Tarquin out of trouble if the T-man had botched a save vs. a disintegration happy wizard. PfD could not have. WoR could have gotten Malack and/or Tarquin out of trouble if they had rolled Buffy the Vampire Slayer on a random encounter table. PfD could not have. WoR could have gotten Malack and/or Tarquin out of trouble if they had found themselves the unwitting guest stars on 'When Xykon Attacks.' PfD could not have. WoR could have gotten Malack and/or Tarquin out of trouble if the Draketooth's secret weapon had been an alliance with a nearby ancient copper dragon. PfD could not have. And so on.
    All those scenarios are only dangerous to Malack when caught in the middle of the desert with no buildings nearby. Had there still been a massive stone pyramid nearby, as he expected there to be, his standard "turn into mist and leave" would have saved him from wizards, vampire hunters (who are no danger to Tarquin, I must add), random encounters, Xykon and dragons.

    In the meantime, WoR would not save him from wizards, vampire hunters, random encounters, liches and dragons going after him in the palace, where he expected to spend most of the day, after the three-four hours spent performing the necessary chore of following his leader as he checks on his progeny.

    Grey Wolf

    Edit:*When the number of spell lots is limited. Obviously Tsukiko could afford to waste spell slots since she had a metric ton of them.
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-07-30 at 12:12 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Wait, you mean that it would inconvenience a group of adventurers to have to deal with *a* reoccurring villain...
    Emphasis mine.

    Yes. Yes. Yes, it would greatly inconvenience the plot ... If every single spellcaster had to be chased down to his recall-hidey-place or teleport-safe-place and exterminated.

    Malack is, as you say, only A villain. Not THE villain. I can't imagine how incredibly tedious it would be for the Order to chase down every freaking spellcaster, starting with Goblin Cleric, Samantha the Bandit Queen, the hapless triple-class Greysky rogue, Grubbwiggler, the ancient black dragon, ad nauseum.

    Malack was not even a recurring villain. His domain is here in the desert. He didn't deserve that much screen time: last-second escape, chase down, final battle, etc. The Order would have said, "We're trying to save the world. Screw it, let's move on."
    The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.

  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Yes, always having to go through a checklist to make sure you're countering the bad guy's escape moves kills tension. It doesn't matter that Recall can be countered, the problem is the fact that it MUST be countered or you can't even engage that enemy. Having to track down that opponent and redo the encounter from the top each time you fudge a counter-cast would be incredibly frustrating and awful to read.

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    To paraphrase an old joke: Do you accept the story premise that Nale was more prepared, more capable, and more driven to kill Malack than Malack himself was expecting?

    Yes?

    Then we're just haggling over price.

    And if you don't accept that, if you think Malack deserved to win, then no amount of wasted panels showing spells and countermeasures would have changed that opinion. If I had put in a Word of Recall followed by Z counterspelling it or something, then there would have been some other strategy that you would have hung your hat on to say, "Why didn't Malack do this??" If you don't accept that Nale was already aware of all of Malack's defenses and had a means to counter them, then nothing will change that. If you do accept it, then it doesn't matter how much of it I show.

    And if I had wasted Malacks one round with a Word of Recall, I would have lost the much-more-dramatically-impactful moment of Malack deciding to spend his one action trying to kill Nale back. I assure you that if the D&D rules gave vampires 3 rounds before sun-death, I would have spent one of those rounds on a Word of Recall attempt that was stopped by Z somehow. But when I only had one round, I chose to use it showing that Malack wanted to kill Nale just as much as Nale wanted to kill Malack. Because as I've said before, I care more about the emotional content of the story than I do about plausibility. I would rather have a story that felt right and was riddled with logical errors than a story that was logically flawless but repetitive and dull.

    If you can get through the all-caps style, I recommend Film Crit Hulk's (very long) essay on plot-holes and logic. It's geared more toward movies than comics, but a lot of the same points apply.
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  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    OK, so your answer is indeed "had I been Malack, I would always prepare 2 PfD, and 1 WoR". In which case, Nale would have known this, and his ambush would have included a Dimensional Anchor as well as the Dispell. And you would be just as dead as Malack, since what killed him was complacency - thinking that a standard array of spells known by Nale would protect him from Nale.
    This. Nale is not actually incompetent. He did not venture into the EoB without a highly plausible plan to defeat Malack's carefully assessed standard operating procedures. Yes, we could have had a 3-panel or 4-panel battle here, but the "likely" result would be exactly the same, once Malack had no building to retreat to.

    Oh, and since he would almost never used WoR for anything, Tarquin would think him less useful. I don't fancy my chances in a group like Tarquin's when the top boss thinks your usefulness is at an end. Wasting a spell slot* is a luxury usually only Good aligned groups can afford.
    And this. Optimizers keep dancing around the fact that Malack is a nearly worthless cleric as is. Adding WoR to his spell list could provoke his fellow party members to arrange his demise...oh, wait.

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    When you have a slam attack that inflicts negative levels, you don't study exotic grappling techniques that are only marginally better than what you can do on your own unless you're paranoid about encountering enemies protected from your natural attack and need a reliable way to immobilize protected spellcasters.
    Racial characteristic. Once he cast Divine Power, he is a brutal grappling machine, relative to anyone but Roy or Tarquin. He does not need good technique against Durkon.

    When your vampiric nature is a secret, you don't build backdoors into spells you help design with clerics you are friendly with unless you're paranoid about giving yourself an edge over them should the two of you ever come to blows.
    Why not? There is no reason not to. It is just an intellectual challenge, to someone who probably considers himself a world expert on negative energy and time on his hands.

    When you don't plan anything more strenuous for the day than chilling with your friend on the terrace, drinking tea, you don't prepare the 1-2 fatal combination of Harm and Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds unless you're paranoid about an unexpected adversary dropping in.
    Why not? Malack has precious spell slots that are going to be filled with something. That he picked these spells proves nothing. To show that surely he should pick something else instead is your row to hoe.

    Malack seems to have a personal affinity for negative energy. That seems natural enough.

  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    My thoughts are best summarized by the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Then explain Slay Living. That's casting a spell as much as Word of Recall would have been.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    He also could have had WoR memorized, and burned it for that Harm during the fight with Durkon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Defiant View Post
    Why didn't Malack have "Word of Recall" prepared? Because in reality he actually did.
    [...]
    If he could actually cast level 6 cleric spells, he would likely use them for something powerful, not defensive. Note that his final action was a level 5 spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    On preparedness, I've argued he should have had Word of Recall memorized -- all clerics with 6th level spells do it where I come from -- but let me note:
    Plan A: the 1st protection from Daylight (base line of defense, dispelled);
    Plan B: I'm inside a pyramid, which provides cover (krackoom);
    Plan C: the 2nd preparation of Prot-Daylight (spent on Durkula thinking he wouldn't need it because of Plans A and B)
    Plan D: his staff (disarmed)

    Should he have burned a charge from the staff to protect Durkon instead of using his backup spell? In hindsight, yeah, but the idea that the building was just going to up and vanish probably didn't enter Malack's mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Also, I would point out that Malack was being expected by Tarquin to fulfill the traditional role of the cleric in this party: healing. Since he's an Evil cleric, that means he has to actually prepare his healing spells in advance. So in addition to the Harm and Greater Dispel Magic spells he already cast, he had at least one Heal spell prepared.

    I'm on the side that believes Malack really did prepare a GTFO spell such as Word of Recall. I also believe that as far as effective spellcasters are concerned? I'll put it this way: BEFORE learning that he was a vampire, the way he handled Nale, we were all pegging Malack at level 16-17+ cleric. We were expecting him to eventually start whipping out 8th spells. Up until we saw him drinking on Belkar.

    That was when we realized Malack's epic ECL on it's own, and the thought of him above 12th cleric is too frightening for anyone to handle in a party. Reinforced by the fact that after the reveal, to his death, we have never seen a spell above 7th level...

    Malack gets at least 1 6th level spell upon access, plus another domain, and if 12th level, he gets a third. Or if he has the wisdom score high enough, maybe then. But as lago points out, it is clear that in hindsight, Malack has clearly failed to note the much safer move of casting PFD using the staff, and as Giant points out, Malack had to meet a long list of expectations of Tarquin, as healer and more.

    I think that as a 5th spell was chosen as a final action on Nale, it was clear that Malack spent all of his 6ths on Durkon. If he had WoR, he spent it as Harm. If he didn't, then he never had it.

    Being a vampire has its hardships. GG Malack, and well avenged Durkon.
    "When will I ever stop telling stories? Well, you see..."

    That's what loyal teammates do for each other, isn't it? You know, when they're not busy getting new haircuts.

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    And if you don't accept that, if you think Malack deserved to win, then no amount of wasted panels showing spells and countermeasures would have changed that opinion. If I had put in a Word of Recall followed by Z counterspelling it or something, then there would have been some other strategy that you would have hung your hat on to say, "Why didn't Malack do this??" If you don't accept that Nale was already aware of all of Malack's defenses and had a means to counter them, then nothing will change that. If you do accept it, then it doesn't matter how much of it I show.
    Precisely this! It would have been wasted real-estate in the comic at best (onanistic slash and parry that didn't change the outcome and cut down on room for Nale's characterization) and at worst, the naysayers would just keep shifting the goal posts. "Well, why not fly inside Nale's lungs?" "Well, why not turn into a rat and burrow into the sand?" Well, why not Iron Heart Surge the sun?" "Well, why not..."

    And to top if off, the Giant is still correct by strict RAW anyway, rendering all the squabbling pretty moot.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2013-07-30 at 05:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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  27. - Top - End - #147
    Retired Mod in the Playground Retired Moderator
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...

    Well, why not Iron Heart Surge the sun?

    ...
    Can I sig that quote? Please?

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    To paraphrase an old joke: Do you accept the story premise that Nale was more prepared, more capable, and more driven to kill Malack than Malack himself was expecting?
    I do. I don't like it because I really don't like Nale as a character, but I can accept it. It's become a question of me despairing over how Malack's overconfidence got him killed more than thinking that the overconfidence was out of character. I had a harder time being sold with this character death, I guess, because of my experience with playing a cleric at high levels.

    While I seem to have you on the line, am I unfair when I characterized Malack as "paranoid?" Because it seems to be a point of contention with some other posters.
    Last edited by BenjCano; 2013-07-30 at 02:11 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by BenjCano View Post
    While I seem to have you on the line, am I unfair when I characterized Malack as "paranoid?" Because it seems to be a point of contention with some other posters.
    I think so, yes. "Paranoid" implies that the character is putting their safety and well-being ahead of all other considerations, including reason. Malack was reasonably prepared; he was not paranoid. He balanced self-preservation with utility. Putting a backdoor into Durkon's spell cost him nothing, so he did it. But preparing his highest-level spells as defensive spells does cost you the ability to actually advance your goals.

    It's sort of a self-fulflling prophecy. If you spend your best spell slots on escape spells, then you will certainly be forced to use them. If you spend your best spell slots on offense, you might actually win. You have to take some risk in order to get ahead, even when you're a 200-year-old vampire.

    If you want paranoid, look at Ian. He's so unwilling to take the risk of trusting Elan that he would rather sit in the jail cell.
    Rich Burlew


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  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Default Re: Word of Recall

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well, why not Iron Heart Surge the sun?
    From Vampire:
    Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape.
    From Tome of Battle:
    Iron Heart Surge
    Iron Heart
    Level: Warblade 3
    Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: See text

    By drawing on your mental strength and physical fortitude, you break free of a debilitating state that might otherwise defeat you.

    Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
    Since the disoriented condition lasts 1 round, you can iron heart surge to avoid it once. But it will return next round if you are still in the sunlight.

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