How do you talk to women.... I mean DMs

[Immabozo]

So I was playing my psion in a campaign a short time ago. First psion, and it was a straight psion, no PrC. My power list was good, but my flavor was great (I even took ranks is "craft (depressing poem", the character was emo)

Then, the DM tells us to make backup characters in case we died. I did, but I told him (we were level 13) that I did not think he could kill me, barring straight DM fiat and just "Everything ever straight up ignores everyone else and attacks you" kind of shinanigans.

He said "alright, if you want to challenge me, I will give you a bonus if you can survive the weekend." (we played for a whole weekend at a time, once a month)

So, we begin the weekend. I survive it no problem. He actually barely rolls an attack roll against me. I had just gotten contingency and had a contingencied 50% miss chance for when I was attacked and I think it was used... twice?

So at the end of the weekend, instead of a reward for surviving, I get this "your character is so over powered" speech.

I tell the group "of course I lived through that, you almost never attacked me!"

I was also a BFC psion, and as a player, I have always been good with tactics, so with a light use of both, I always was able to stay away from the fight.

But the DM never tried to challenge me. He would usually sent either one target and I would stun lock it as the rest of the group killeed it, of a small group which I would handle so that we could kill them 1 or 2 at a time and then he always attacked the fighter-types.

But still, I was overpowered for not dying from the maybe 3 attack rolls made against me, of which 1 or 2 did not hit and my psicrystal + share pain made me a whole lot less squishy.

[Rebel7284]

What's the rest of the party like? Perhaps your DM noticed the effectiveness of the battlefield control was preventing all the wonderful attack rolls she planned to make against you?

[Telonius]

First of all, you're in a conflict that's entirely of your own making. This quote right here?

I did, but I told him (we were level 13) that I did not think he could kill me, barring straight DM fiat and just "Everything ever straight up ignores everyone else and attacks you" kind of shinanigans.

This is not just poking the bear. This doing the macarena in honey-and-fish-flavored underwear as you tug on the bear's ears. Really, don't tell the DM that he can't kill you. It does not end well.

That aside, it sounds to me like the DM is really not used to dealing with battlefield control characters. That can make it very difficult to plan encounters, especially if he's stuck in the "dealing loads of hitpoint damage is the way to win" mindset. The fact that he's sending single big enemies suggests that he's not completely clear on action economy, either. So yes, to that point of view, stun-locking a big enemy is overpowered, because it turned an encounter he expected to be very dangerous (=dealing many hitpoints of damage) into something pretty trivial. Adding miss chance to negate what he thinks is the most dangerous part of the enemy (again, to this mindset, hp damage = power) would frustrate him further.

[XmonkTad]

In terms of safety, BFCs tend to be pretty high on the list. In terms of utility to the team in combat, BFCs also shine. Your problem isn't that your character is overpowered, it's that when you're doing your job well you're very safe and a force multiplier for the team. You (presumably) are not one-shotting anything, and should point that out to the DM. You are also (presumably) a team player, who isn't capable of soloing the encounters the DM has tossed your way.

The DM has put you in the position of having to argue that if your character stays alive, they're too strong. Don't take that argument.

[Immabozo]

What's the rest of the party like? Perhaps your DM noticed the effectiveness of the battlefield control was preventing all the wonderful attack rolls she planned to make against you?

A cleric that fancies himself a fighter and casts superbuffs on himself and them wades into melee, a scythe wielding melee DPS, not sure what his build is really about, and a tank Blackguard.

he mostly concentrates on the melee. It only took a mild level of tactics to stay away from him monsters. Granted something big did hit me once, but I stunned him for two rounds, ran away and then summoned my astral construct to tank him, but that was towards the end of a fight.

[Immabozo]

In terms of safety, BFCs tend to be pretty high on the list. In terms of utility to the team in combat, BFCs also shine. Your problem isn't that your character is overpowered, it's that when you're doing your job well you're very safe and a force multiplier for the team. You (presumably) are not one-shotting anything, and should point that out to the DM. You are also (presumably) a team player, who isn't capable of soloing the encounters the DM has tossed your way.

The DM has put you in the position of having to argue that if your character stays alive, they're too strong. Don't take that argument.

I did, but the point that "I was never in danger of dying" point came up several times

First of all, you're in a conflict that's entirely of your own making. This quote right here?

This is not just poking the bear. This doing the macarena in honey-and-fish-flavored underwear as you tug on the bear's ears. Really, don't tell the DM that he can't kill you. It does not end well.

That aside, it sounds to me like the DM is really not used to dealing with battlefield control characters. That can make it very difficult to plan encounters, especially if he's stuck in the "dealing loads of hitpoint damage is the way to win" mindset. The fact that he's sending single big enemies suggests that he's not completely clear on action economy, either. So yes, to that point of view, stun-locking a big enemy is overpowered, because it turned an encounter he expected to be very dangerous (=dealing many hitpoints of damage) into something pretty trivial. Adding miss chance to negate what he thinks is the most dangerous part of the enemy (again, to this mindset, hp damage = power) would frustrate him further.

You are right. But I knew I was poking the bear and prepared for it (we were all SUPPOSED to die anyway and all had backup characters). But this was not my expected outcome.

And it is true, much of my group is in the "hp damage is overpowered" mindset, thinking tier 3 breaks the game over its knee.

[John Longarrow]

Sounds like your DM needs to learn about mobility and ranged combat.

I've seen character builds that seem OP until they have to fight outside of their comfort zone. It sounds like your DM doesn't know how to challenge your build.

As to talking to your DM, try talking the way you would want them to talk to you. Telling the DM they can't kill your character is rather egotistical sounding. As a DM, I can think of a few dozen ways to kill a BFC character without going very high on the challenge rating. Easiest is to keep them involved in a fight until they can't keep up the control or put them in an area they are not good at controlling. Tomb of Horrors tends to work...

[Immabozo]

Sounds like your DM needs to learn about mobility and ranged combat.

I've seen character builds that seem OP until they have to fight outside of their comfort zone. It sounds like your DM doesn't know how to challenge your build.

As to talking to your DM, try talking the way you would want them to talk to you. Telling the DM they can't kill your character is rather egotistical sounding. As a DM, I can think of a few dozen ways to kill a BFC character without going very high on the challenge rating. Easiest is to keep them involved in a fight until they can't keep up the control or put them in an area they are not good at controlling. Tomb of Horrors tends to work...

you are right, that is challenging him, but that was expected and he was trying to kill us already.

Yes, I am by no means the god of optimization, my character is not invincible, my character totally can die. But at least he dies in a blaze of glory. It will be fun.

Hell, there was one tough fight I only had something like 14 PP to use. That one was fun, trying to figure out the most effective use of my PP and we barely beat the encounter JUST as I ran out of PP. That one was fun.

While yes, I challenged him, I wanted the challenge, thought it would be fun.

also, I did and do not think he has the DM know how to do it properly

[Socratov]

Oh wow. Another point for 'Communication is so ****ing hard'.

I mean, sure you shouldn't have poked the bear as much as you did. then again, the bear shouldn't have painted a target on it's side where it's ticklish with a sign pointing at the target saying "poke here for treasure bonus".

I mean, who the flying fornication thinks it's a good idea to tell the players that you are going to kill their characters? And what player does the verbal equivalent of a pelvic thrust with a biceps flexing saying "come at me bro!"

I mean, his position here is totally stupid. You initiated a boast and now you start crying wolf? That's just sad kiddo.

Then again, every player knows a DM's ego is fragile and you shouldn't just bring a sledgehammer to a fine carpentry session. Try to make it look hard.

One thing though, seeing how this weekend he tried to challenge you but failed, how is he balancing his games normally? Is he challenging your character? Because at the moment it seems like your character is of a higher tier build then the rest of the characters (most melee builds are between tiers 3-5, BFC 'casters' go round tiers 1-2). so yeah, his statement might just be justified because your character does trivialise the challenges he sets before you...

[Callin]

Yea its really tough to challenge a player when they are a tier above the GM/DM. If the DM is used to only teir 3 characters as OP and the Damage is King mentality then yea a BFC or Divination Spells or any other what is considered tier 1 and 2 builds are OP. That just means that the DM cant compete with the player. Specially when the Player uses superior tactics to out play the DM, and the DM just tries to kill the Melee and not go after the squishy controlling the combat.

I dont think you are OP. I just think you are a tier above them in playstyle. Kuddos to you.

[Immabozo]

I mean, sure you shouldn't have poked the bear as much as you did. then again, the bear shouldn't have painted a target on it's side where it's ticklish with a sign pointing at the target saying "poke here for treasure bonus".

I mean, who the flying fornication thinks it's a good idea to tell the players that you are going to kill their characters? And what player does the verbal equivalent of a pelvic thrust with a biceps flexing saying "come at me bro!"

I mean, his position here is totally stupid. You initiated a boast and now you start crying wolf? That's just sad kiddo.

Then again, every player knows a DM's ego is fragile and you shouldn't just bring a sledgehammer to a fine carpentry session. Try to make it look hard.

One thing though, seeing how this weekend he tried to challenge you but failed, how is he balancing his games normally? Is he challenging your character? Because at the moment it seems like your character is of a higher tier build then the rest of the characters (most melee builds are between tiers 3-5, BFC 'casters' go round tiers 1-2). so yeah, his statement might just be justified because your character does trivialise the challenges he sets before you...

This is glorious. My friend, you have a talent for the written... errr, typed.... word.

You are right. but its hard to play casters in our games due to this very fact. "blasty" caster are about the best caster my group gets into. A caster needs a serious dumbing down to fit in with our group.

Yea its really tough to challenge a player when they are a tier above the GM/DM. If the DM is used to only teir 3 characters as OP and the Damage is King mentality then yea a BFC or Divination Spells or any other what is considered tier 1 and 2 builds are OP. That just means that the DM cant compete with the player. Specially when the Player uses superior tactics to out play the DM, and the DM just tries to kill the Melee and not go after the squishy controlling the combat.

I dont think you are OP. I just think you are a tier above them in playstyle. Kuddos to you.

You have a point. This is one reason I usually play melees. Actually always. This is my first 'caster'.

I do have a DM that fits beautifully with my play style, but he is not DMing due to a member of our group rage quitting D&D because of the imbalance, until 5th e comes out. So we play other games.

[Vaz]

if she is mean to you, it is because she fancies you.

[madtinker]

If the problem is that you are better at DnD than your DM...

Help him get better.

My brother DMs a solo PbP game for me. I played a cleric that did the super-buff and pretend to be a fighter thing. We had the conversation once of "How do I hurt you? Everything I do just gets nerfed because you're a cleric." And I explained about giving monsters class levels and not just using stuff right out of the MM. I think I even pointed out some weaknesses in my build that he hadn't seen. When my character finally died, it wasn't because the DM was trying to kill him; it was because he finally made a challenging encounter and I didn't play as smart as I should have.

Then I made a druid to replace the cleric. We might have to have another conversation, because I recently destroyed a character with a 3 level advantage (Druid 8 vs Barbarian 11) WITHOUT using spells. Or wildshape. Without getting hit once. Because tactics are important.

If your DM has trouble with tactics, help him up his game.

[Deaxsa]

Talk to women? ..you keep using "he" for the DM. Is there something I'm missing?

[Socratov]

This is glorious. My friend, you have a talent for the written... errr, typed.... word.

You are right. but its hard to play casters in our games due to this very fact. "blasty" caster are about the best caster my group gets into. A caster needs a serious dumbing down to fit in with our group.



snip

Haha, thanks. Do you mind if I include this praise in the collection in my extended signature?

I'd like to join the others here and advice you to conform to the group (plus or minus 1 tier level), or to adjust your tactics. Because now your DM has 2 options: make trivial encounters for you, but right for the others, or make them challenging for you, and near impossible for the others.

[Immabozo]

If the problem is that you are better at DnD than your DM...

Help him get better.

My brother DMs a solo PbP game for me. I played a cleric that did the super-buff and pretend to be a fighter thing. We had the conversation once of "How do I hurt you? Everything I do just gets nerfed because you're a cleric." And I explained about giving monsters class levels and not just using stuff right out of the MM. I think I even pointed out some weaknesses in my build that he hadn't seen. When my character finally died, it wasn't because the DM was trying to kill him; it was because he finally made a challenging encounter and I didn't play as smart as I should have.

Then I made a druid to replace the cleric. We might have to have another conversation, because I recently destroyed a character with a 3 level advantage (Druid 8 vs Barbarian 11) WITHOUT using spells. Or wildshape. Without getting hit once. Because tactics are important.

If your DM has trouble with tactics, help him up his game.

Yeah, that is a very unbalanced fight, haha.

You are right, I'll have a talk with him at some point. Thanks!

Talk to women? ..you keep using "he" for the DM. Is there something I'm missing?

It was meant as a joke. That's all.

[Immabozo]

Haha, thanks. Do you mind if I include this praise in the collection in my extended signature?

I'd like to join the others here and advice you to conform to the group (plus or minus 1 tier level), or to adjust your tactics. Because now your DM has 2 options: make trivial encounters for you, but right for the others, or make them challenging for you, and near impossible for the others.

I would be honored.

You are right. The ironic thing was, I was debating between several builds "Beary Ursine" (the Anthropomorphic bear, bear totem bearbearian, Bear Warrior, with vow of poverty, because he only needed the bear essentials, fighting with his bear hand, motivated to fight for your right to bear arms and worked bear puns into everything said, he could), or to build The Hulk, Iron Man, Darth Vader (psychic warrior), Darth Sideous (a telepath psion with blasty powers), or an emo kid that was so emo that he developed psionics and uses them to go "everyone get away from me".

The DM asked and encouraged me to go "hilariously emo kid". So I did.

My backup was a ninja character that did a touch attack for 8d6 + wisdom negative energy damage every other round, as a touch attack (standard action) and then healed a touched target in the following round as a free action.

That character was outshined by the others, but damn, he just would NOT go down. That one took a lot of hits and was rarely under full hp, ever.

EDIT: although, outside that negative energy attack, being that UA strike was so optimized, he would destroy things if he ever full attacked

[John Longarrow]

Immabozo,

I think you need to have a sit down talk with the other players and your DM. teach them some basic tactics and strategy.

Maybe even run a few adventures where you DM and take lower CR monsters and use tactics and terrain advantage against the players to show how some of it works.

If you DM can't challenge you, help him learn how to. If your other players don't use tactics, teach them how much easier things are when you use them.

[Immabozo]

Immabozo,

I think you need to have a sit down talk with the other players and your DM. teach them some basic tactics and strategy.

Maybe even run a few adventures where you DM and take lower CR monsters and use tactics and terrain advantage against the players to show how some of it works.

If you DM can't challenge you, help him learn how to. If your other players don't use tactics, teach them how much easier things are when you use them.

This is a fantastic idea. And it fits in with a campaign idea I've been thinking about, where I award experience for mostly how you kill something, not what you kill.

[John Longarrow]

Immabozo,

There are already enough penalties in game for having bad tactics. Loss of HPs, loss of resources, dead characters, etc.. I'd stick to normal XPs. If they do well, they just don't get hurt much. If they do poorly...

PC1: "Crap that was a touch fight. I had to go through all the charges on my healing belt, all of my emergency potions, and stil get healed up afterwards"
PC2: "Yea, I'm still amazed we survived that. If I hadn't made my balance to go over that nasty rubble barrier, I wouldn't have made it"

DM: "OK, 5th level party VS 12 goblins. Lets see, XP is...."

PC2: "What?? That's it?"

DM: "What do you expect from a fight that's supposed to be even? Its not ME that decided to charge UPHILL against archers... under cover... with rather obvious prepaired traps in the way"

[Immabozo]

Immabozo,

There are already enough penalties in game for having bad tactics. Loss of HPs, loss of resources, dead characters, etc.. I'd stick to normal XPs. If they do well, they just don't get hurt much. If they do poorly...

PC1: "Crap that was a touch fight. I had to go through all the charges on my healing belt, all of my emergency potions, and stil get healed up afterwards"
PC2: "Yea, I'm still amazed we survived that. If I hadn't made my balance to go over that nasty rubble barrier, I wouldn't have made it"

DM: "OK, 5th level party VS 12 goblins. Lets see, XP is...."

PC2: "What?? That's it?"

DM: "What do you expect from a fight that's supposed to be even? Its not ME that decided to charge UPHILL against archers... under cover... with rather obvious prepaired traps in the way"

fair enough. Although, if the idea is to force them into smart tactics (and at least 1 member of the group it has a supremely good tactical mind) AND it is known ahead of time, it would get the job done.

[madtinker]

fair enough. Although, if the idea is to force them into smart tactics (and at least 1 member of the group it has a supremely good tactical mind) AND it is known ahead of time, it would get the job done.

Forcing tactics is different from teaching tactics. Forcing anything amounts to thinking that your style of having fun is better than theirs. It NEVER is. However, teaching tactics so others can use them is much more likely to be accepted, and that way, everyone can have fun.

[Immabozo]

Forcing tactics is different from teaching tactics. Forcing anything amounts to thinking that your style of having fun is better than theirs. It NEVER is. However, teaching tactics so others can use them is much more likely to be accepted, and that way, everyone can have fun.

you have a point

[John Longarrow]

Immabozo,

I'd recommend calling your campaign "Shoot, Move, Communicate". Set it in the mystical lands of Benning and Bragg. King Leonardwood and King Knox are duking it out..

[Immabozo]

Immabozo,

I'd recommend calling your campaign "Shoot, Move, Communicate". Set it in the mystical lands of Benning and Bragg. King Leonardwood and King Knox are duking it out..

lol, interesting