Joker (2019)

[napoleon_in_rag]

So the new Joker movie debuted at the Venice Film Festival and all the reviewers use phrases like "Amazing" and "Oscar worthy" and "8 minute standing ovation".

But the fandom is quiet (Perhaps because very few Batman fans were invited to the Venice Film Festival). I see less buzz about this film on amateur youtube reviewers than I do on other comic book films. I was surprised to see no existing discussion thread on this site about the trailers.

Are people less interested in this film because it is not part of the DC Cinematic Universe? Or because it is a new origin story and not based on "The Killing Joke"? Are we finally reaching Comic Book Film Fatigue? I am curious what people think because the trailer does look pretty good.

[Evil DM Mark3]

My first reaction upon hearing about this film was "Why?"

The Joker needs no origin, the Joker is only diminished when given one.

To refer to The Killing Joke, the point of that comic was to explore, not his origin, but his philosophy. The Joker holds that everyone is one bad day away from being him and that Batman is just as crazy as he is. He is also definitively proven wrong by the end of the story. His origin is a tool to that end and even then Joker would refer to his past as "multiple-choice".

My opinion remains the same. I am not interested for the same reason I am not interested in a movie showing the Batmobile get assembled or the childhood of daffy duck. It is not relevant and thus does not interest me.

[Peelee]

My first reaction upon hearing about this film was "Why?"

The Joker needs no origin, the Joker is only diminished when given one.

To refer to The Killing Joke, the point of that comic was to explore, not his origin, but his philosophy. The Joker holds that everyone is one bad day away from being him and that Batman is just as crazy as he is. He is also definitively proven wrong by the end of the story. His origin is a tool to that end and even then Joker would refer to his past as "multiple-choice".

My opinion remains the same. I am not interested for the same reason I am not interested in a movie showing the Batmobile get assembled or the childhood of daffy duck. It is not relevant and thus does not interest me.

While I agree that he's better with no definitive origin, I choose to believe that this is just an in-depth look at one of the various stories that he tells. Because why not, it looks really good from the trailers.

[Eldan]

It only seems tangentially related to the DC universe anyway (I doubt any other known characters will feature), so just forget he's the DC joker and see it as just an interesting tragedy about a disturbed man gradually coming apart?

[Murk]

… an interesting tragedy about a disturbed man gradually coming apart?

I think this is why it might not be getting the attention on The Internets that other comic book movies do. It doesn't seem to be a superhero (or supervillain) movie. It doesn't have an exciting feel, or anything awesome or the feel of a special world, or heck, a special person - it feels like a regular guy with regular mental health issues.

There is nothing wrong with movies about regular guys with mental health issues, of course. Those can be great movies - but I think they generally have a different target audience than superhero movies.

[napoleon_in_rag]

It only seems tangentially related to the DC universe anyway (I doubt any other known characters will feature), so just forget he's the DC joker and see it as just an interesting tragedy about a disturbed man gradually coming apart?

Thomas Wayne is a character in it. I wonder if, in this version, the Joker is the one who kills Bruce's parents.

[Psyren]

Color me interested; Joaquin Phoenix is a great actor (he's the only person besides Cumberbatch that I would have been happy with as Stephen Strange) and I'm badly in need of something to wash the aftertaste of Jared Leto's greasy misbegotten "Juggaloker" out of my mouth. (Maybe I should rephrase that...)

With that said, I do have cause for concern - most notably the rumblings I've been hearing both about the film's portrayal of mental illness and the likelihood for its biggest fans to miss the point (much as happened with Fight Club) and fail to realize that they're not supposed to find the mass-murdering iconoclastic anarchist relatable. I'm willing to bet that the film does not actually play these elements up as strongly as a sensationalist article might have us believe, but the line there is vanishingly thin.

Bottom line: maybe not a theater watch, but I'll probably rent it - I'll wait to see what the reviewers I know and trust have to say about it.

[Magic_Hat]

Somebody made a spin-off, solo movie about Matthew Modine's character from Full Metal Jacket?

Back on subject: apparently the budget for this film is only like 55 million. Maybe people aren't talking about it because it didn't require at least 100 million in CGI to make. Trying to make a movie based off a comic without having half the film be CGI?! What were they thinking?!

[Callos_DeTerran]

Color me interested; Joaquin Phoenix is a great actor (he's the only person besides Cumberbatch that I would have been happy with as Stephen Strange) and I'm badly in need of something to wash the aftertaste of Jared Leto's greasy misbegotten "Juggaloker" out of my mouth. (Maybe I should rephrase that...)

With that said, I do have cause for concern - most notably the rumblings I've been hearing both about the film's portrayal of mental illness and the likelihood for its biggest fans to miss the point (much as happened with Fight Club) and fail to realize that they're not supposed to find the mass-murdering iconoclastic anarchist relatable. I'm willing to bet that the film does not actually play these elements up as strongly as a sensationalist article might have us believe, but the line there is vanishingly thin.

Bottom line: maybe not a theater watch, but I'll probably rent it - I'll wait to see what the reviewers I know and trust have to say about it.

Wow...uh..irregardless of my feelings on the movie, those are generally intrigued, those articles...just..wow, talk about bad takes, especially the second one that displays a critical lack of understanding of the Joker and seemingly the movie from what they wrote.

The mental health one..that's trickier considering the majority of Batman's rogues are certifiably insane but not as often given to a clinical portrayal of mental illness because..well for the reasons the article points out. They are insane but also very obviously 'fiction-insane' not 'real-insane' and if someone can't distinguish between the two they need to be sat down and have the differences between the two explained.

[Deja Who?]

I think everyone needs to be sat down and have them explained, in a school. Because while you may think it’s a given that people can distinguish between reality and fantasy because we can the average human most certainly can not, or will not, or at least won’t give enough thought to it for the difference to matter.

[Dienekes]

Color me interested; Joaquin Phoenix is a great actor (he's the only person besides Cumberbatch that I would have been happy with as Stephen Strange) and I'm badly in need of something to wash the aftertaste of Jared Leto's greasy misbegotten "Juggaloker" out of my mouth. (Maybe I should rephrase that...)

With that said, I do have cause for concern - most notably the rumblings I've been hearing both about the film's portrayal of mental illness and the likelihood for its biggest fans to miss the point (much as happened with Fight Club) and fail to realize that they're not supposed to find the mass-murdering iconoclastic anarchist relatable. I'm willing to bet that the film does not actually play these elements up as strongly as a sensationalist article might have us believe, but the line there is vanishingly thin.

Bottom line: maybe not a theater watch, but I'll probably rent it - I'll wait to see what the reviewers I know and trust have to say about it.

Interesting articles, but the first one is slightly wrong. If all mental disorder is lumped together, then yes. However, individuals with bipolar and schizophrenic disorders are more likely to commit violent crimes than the general population (though the far more significant indicator of violent crime is substance abuse regardless of mental disorder).

As to the second. Eh. They're not wrong that people have taken the strappings of a work that condemns a people and actions and ignored the moral (Rick and Morty, American History X, Fight Club, Sopranos, Godfather, honestly anything with a antihero protagonist really). But I hardly think that's a reason for or against a piece of media. Possibly because that would remove a good chunk of my favorite pieces of media.

[Psyren]

Oh I'm definitely not saying I agree with those takes - I'm pointing out that they give me a reason to wait for a review I can trust. I'm particularly interested in what a comics-focused movie reviewer like MovieBob or Cosmonaut might have to say about it.

[Lemmy]

While I think a Joker origin movie is completely unnecessary, the trailers have piqued my curiosity. The acting in particular, seems amazing. Here's hoping it doesn't turn out to be a huge disappointment... XD

{scrubbed}

[Zevox]

I think this is why it might not be getting the attention on The Internets that other comic book movies do. It doesn't seem to be a superhero (or supervillain) movie. It doesn't have an exciting feel, or anything awesome or the feel of a special world, or heck, a special person - it feels like a regular guy with regular mental health issues.

There is nothing wrong with movies about regular guys with mental health issues, of course. Those can be great movies - but I think they generally have a different target audience than superhero movies.

Very much this, I think. I mean, I'm not exactly a perfect representative sample here since I already don't much like the Joker (or Batman) and wouldn't have much interest in any hypothetical Joker movie, but the way they're going about definitely sealed my decision not to bother. Which isn't to say that it looks like a bad film to me, but that it doesn't look like the kind of film I want to go see at all, personally, and certainly not like one that has much in common with other superhero films, from either major publisher. I don't know how much the typical superhero film audience will want to see it, but it won't surprise me at all if there's a substantial chunk of it that similarly just isn't interested.

[Deja Who?]

It looks okay and an odd turn for DC but they are constantly trying to make their superhero movies more real and gritty and dark so maybe the logical conclusion to that is to make it so grim and normal that it isn’t even a superheros type film anymore.

[Eldan]

I don't think they are really trying for dark and gritty so much anymore. Their most popular, successful movies were Aquaman and Wonder Woman.

[Majin]

Well this does seem to be darker than Shazam and Wonder Woman at least (haven't seen Aquaman), but I suppose it's fitting for Joker. But I agree the general trend seems to be toward more colorful, at least movies-wise. Glad they're finally recovering from the Dark Knight trilogy.

And while this technically seems to be a well-made movie, and Phoenix seems like could be a good Joker, I still can't feel that excited. I might go if this gets good reviews, but I guess I've never really wanted to see a Joker solo movie. I'll probably rent it at least at some point.

[Eldan]

Aquaman is almost pure fantasy pulp. Very colourful, action-packed, full of colour. Lots of people in gold armour riding sea monsters. Sword and planet, except the planet is the ocean.

[Wraith]

I'll wait to see what the reviewers I know and trust have to say about it.

I think that I have reached exactly the same conclusion that you have.

As a work of art, Joker looks exquisite. The casting, the costume, the lighting, the sets, the music, the performance.... Oscar nominations are plausible, and possibly even deserved ones at that. *cough*suicide squad*cough*

Having read what I suspect are very similar articles to the ones that you cited, however, I too went straight to a comparison with Fight Club and how its themes have been misrepresented over the years. I thoroughly believe that might happen - the amount of people who apparently still view Harley Quinn/Joker as a romantic story won't convince me otherwise - and if it does then it will be a terrible stain on the film.

I want to remain optimistic. I want to go and see it for myself and to enjoy it, but I'm bracing myself for something that might be beautiful, but flawed.

[Kitten Champion]

Eh, Suicide Squad winning an Academy Award for best make-up and costuming is roughly the same thing as Voyager's Threshold winning an Emmy in a similar category. That the totality of the work is dreck doesn't mean the people working on any specific aspect of it are all equally maladroit.

I mean, the Jackass movie was nominated for make-up and costuming just for having a professional old-age make-up.

[Morgana]

I just really don't see the point of this movie, even Killing Joke wasn't really an origin story for the Joker. Point is he isn't really supposed to be relatable in any way, he has no really agenda, his grievence with society isn't really cause he supports any social cause or anything, but just cause he doesn't like order, I think it's funny cause all the times people feel sorry for the Joker is cause he's actively tricking them by spinning a sob story that's always not true. And I just feel like this story has just been told so many times already? Fight Club, Taxi Driver, King of Comedy, except in all those cases this concept is played less straight(despite people still thinking the characters in those movies are the "good guys" somehow).

[Traab]

If they had wanted to do a real joker origin movie, they should have really gone for it. As someone else said, the Joker himself says his background is multiple choice, I think one of the best ways they could have done this was to film alternate endings as we see the wrap up being the joker telling this story to his court appointed psychiatrist, letting us figure out that the movie is full of *&^% and its just the joker messing with his audience again with a story even he cant keep straight. Save the sad feel bad for this guy story as he is talking to dr quinzel to reference what he is already starting to do to her. That way when the movie ends we get an origin, but we also get that we cant really believe it.

[Peelee]

If they had wanted to do a real joker origin movie, they should have really gone for it. As someone else said, the Joker himself says his background is multiple choice, I think one of the best ways they could have done this was to film alternate endings as we see the wrap up being the joker telling this story to his court appointed psychiatrist, letting us figure out that the movie is full of *&^% and its just the joker messing with his audience again with a story even he cant keep straight. Save the sad feel bad for this guy story as he is talking to dr quinzel to reference what he is already starting to do to her. That way when the movie ends we get an origin, but we also get that we cant really believe it.

Maybe it's like Clue and different endings are shown at different theaters with no notice whatsoever.

....and also different whole rest of the movie, I guess?

[Traab]

Maybe it's like Clue and different endings are shown at different theaters with no notice whatsoever.

....and also different whole rest of the movie, I guess?

You could probably add in alternate scenes for specific important moments. Basically an extra 30 minutes of scenes swapped around to portray a different outcome. Same basic movie, but with different events taking place that change how the Joker comes across to the audience. I think it could work if written carefully. The hard part would be making it so nothing in the main body contradicts what happens in the various alternate scenes while still creating a different conclusion. You could wind up with anti hero joker, striking back at those who deserve it, sad deserving of sympathy joker, who had his one bad day and cant figure a way out of it (but maybe the kind lady doctor can give him a hand), and monster joker, who is an unrepentant killer doing what he does because he finds it funny.

[Aotrs Commander]

My first reaction upon hearing about this film was "Why?"

The Joker needs no origin, the Joker is only diminished when given one.

My opinion remains the same. I am not interested for the same reason I am not interested in a movie showing the Batmobile get assembled or the childhood of daffy duck. It is not relevant and thus does not interest me.

I entirely concur.

(Though my initial reaction was more like "no. No, they can't possibly be serious, no, they are. Ohhhhhh dear.")

[Peelee]

You could probably add in alternate scenes for specific important moments. Basically an extra 30 minutes of scenes swapped around to portray a different outcome. Same basic movie, but with different events taking place that change how the Joker comes across to the audience. I think it could work if written carefully. The hard part would be making it so nothing in the main body contradicts what happens in the various alternate scenes while still creating a different conclusion. You could wind up with anti hero joker, striking back at those who deserve it, sad deserving of sympathy joker, who had his one bad day and cant figure a way out of it (but maybe the kind lady doctor can give him a hand), and monster joker, who is an unrepentant killer doing what he does because he finds it funny.

Ya know, if they actually tried to make a Joker movie specifically with that in mind, I would absolutely want to see how it turned out.

[Bartmanhomer]

I can't wait to watch the Joker. It does look Oscar-worthy. But I'll see it and judge it for myself when it comes out.

[Peelee]

I can't wait to watch the Joker. It does look Oscar-worthy. But I'll see it and judge it for myself when it comes out.

Which Oscar?

[Magic_Hat]

Which Oscar?

Whatever category Black Panther won.

[Bartmanhomer]

Which Oscar?

All of them.