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2017-07-17, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
The False Balance Fallacy
The tendency to interpret the rules, not based on any validity with RAW or logic, but that which makes the game (in their eyes) more balanced.
This tendency is often fueled by the incorrect belief that the game is balanced or the desire for it to be.
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2017-07-17, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
As others have already noted: In a head to head encounter, even using fear effects isn't going to be all that useful of a tactic for a samurai, since Autohypnosis is a class skill for the SK, and one of its abilities allows for a fairly nice defense against fear effects. Iirc, Intimidate is a bit easier to boost, but I don't think it's enough to do more than break slightly in the samurai's favor, even before we get into other options for negating it. Using a same-encounter test, it will quickly find its usefulness degrading due to the wide spread fear immunity you see later in the game. Even mediocre baked-in bonus damage and native access to psionic feats gives the soulknife a significantly larger toolkit that the samurai can bring to bear.
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2017-07-17, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- S.E. USA
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Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
Thoughts:
i) At least one multi-opponent encounter should be included at each breakpoint.
ii) Should the same dungeon test be solo combat or as filling a party role? I could see running a full low-power party consisting of Aristocrat, Expert, Adept + You, the Samurai/Soulknife.
iii) Limited spell casting opponents are probably OK if half-casters or multi-classed.
iii) A 1v1 gladiatorial fight at each break point in addition to the same-game test would likely be entertaining.Last edited by Psionic Dog; 2017-07-17 at 04:56 PM.
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2017-07-17, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2016
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- Virgo Supercluster
Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
I would do a solo run.
Speaking of.
Spoiler: Sample Dungeon.The Halls of Mery the Eldritch
Level 1
General Information:
Dungeon Walls. Natural Stone (Climb DC 15)
Dungeon Floor. Flagstone
Temperature. Cool
Illumination. Dark (individual creatures may carry lights)
Corridors:
a. Patches of mushrooms grow here
c. Pit Trap: CR 2; mechanical; location trigger; manual reset; DC 20 Reflex save avoids; 40 ft. deep (4d6, fall); Search DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
Wandering Monsters:
1. 5 x 1st Level Warrior Goblin, scouting from another part of the dungeon
2. 1 x Homunculus, scouting from another part of the dungeon
3. 1 x Homunculus, bloodied and fleeing a more powerful enemy
4. 1 x Troglodyte Zombie, searching for an object stolen from their lair
5. 13 x Tiny Monstrous Centipede (vermin), bloodied and fleeing a more powerful enemy
6. 1 x Darkmantle, wandering senselessly
Room #1
West Entry #1. Stuck Simple Wooden Door (break DC 13; hard 5, 10 hp)
→ Leads to room #3
West Entry #2. Stuck Good Wooden Door (break DC 18; hard 5, 15 hp)
West Entry #3. Locked Iron Door (Open Lock DC 40, break DC 28; hard 10, 60 hp)
Room Features. Someone has scrawled "It's a trap" in dwarvish runes on the west wall, The floor is covered with shards of bone
Monster. 1 x 1st Level Warrior Duergar (dwarf)
1st level warrior duergar: CR 1; Medium humanoid (dwarf); HD 1d8+5; hp 9; Init +0; Spd 20 ft. in chainmail (4 squares); base speed 20 ft.; AC 17 (+5 chainmail, +2 heavy shield), touch 10, flat-footed 17; Base Atk +1; Grp +2; Atk +2 melee (1d8+1/x3, warhammer) or +1 ranged (1d8/19-20, light crossbow); Full Atk +2 melee (1d8+1/x3, warhammer) or +1 ranged (1d8/19-20, light crossbow); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Duergar traits, spell-like abilities; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., duergar traits; AL LE; SV Fort +4*, Ref +0*, Will -1*; Str 13, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 4
Skills and Feats: Appraise +2, Craft (blacksmithing) +2, Craft (stonemasonry) +2, Listen +3, Move Silently -4, Spot +2; Toughness
Treasure: 20 gp; hoard total 20 gp
Room #2
North Entry. Secret (Search DC 20) Stuck Simple Wooden Door (break DC 13; hard 5, 10 hp) (slides up, +2 to break DC)
Ⓢ The door is concealed within the mouth of a gargantuan skull carved from stone
Room #3
West Entry. Wooden Portcullis (lift DC 25, break DC 28; hard 5, 30 hp)
East Entry. Stuck Simple Wooden Door (break DC 13; hard 5, 10 hp)
→ Leads to room #1, inhabited by 1 x 1st Level Warrior Duergar
Room Features. Several alcoves are cut into the south wall, A set of demonic war masks hangs on the west wall
Room #4
East Entry. Secret (Search DC 25) Unlocked Strong Wooden Door (hard 5, 20 hp)
Ⓢ The door is concealed behind a statue of an ancient lich, and opened by pressing runes on his staff
South Entry #1. Archway
South Entry #2. Stuck Strong Wooden Door (break DC 23; hard 5, 20 hp)
Room Features. Part of the north wall has collapsed into the room, A pile of spoiled meat lies in the north side of the roomLast edited by Tainted_Scholar; 2017-07-17 at 05:34 PM.
The False Balance Fallacy
The tendency to interpret the rules, not based on any validity with RAW or logic, but that which makes the game (in their eyes) more balanced.
This tendency is often fueled by the incorrect belief that the game is balanced or the desire for it to be.
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2017-07-17, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2015
Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
Autohypnosis is usable against fear saves, which is one reason that my DM banned it (the skill) in the 3.5 game where I was running a soulknife (there were a number of outright bans in that game, including full caster classes, all manifesters, and more, so it's not like this one skill was singled out with nothing else being banned).
So if you're going to use intimidate to try and force fear effects, the soulknife can use autohypnosis to resist. Not that they have terrible will saves (and, in fact, the one I built in the same game I mentioned had a magnificently high will save because of the two soul knife only prestige classes and wisdom focus of the build stacking on top of the soul knife's baseline good will save).
Anyway, for encounters you should not shy away from casters. It's rather unfair to the class to say 'oh, well, this is a full caster, it obviously wins instantly because x, y, z' without actually testing it. Saving throws happen, monsters tend not to be TO cheese, and both of these classes have beefy hit dice with which to weather their way into having a round 1 of actions, in which the dynamic of the fight can change significantly.
Don't forget that soulknife also has native access to stealth skills and light enough armor for that to be a viable option, and enough skill points to actually invest in said skills and still do anything else at all with skills. CW samurai also has 4+int skills, I'm just trying to point out that skills actually do matter other than just UMD to cheese things with wands of fireball or the like. Depending on the combat area, climb, swim, tumble, and so on can all find a use, even if it's something as suicidal as grappling a monster into the water to drown it while keeping your head up. If you go into this assuming that the class's only options are the ones that are immediately apparent from attack bonus and potential weapon damage output, you lose sight of one of the important aspects to DND: Problem Solving.
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2017-07-17, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
One question. Would you count manifesting a blade the same as a "drawing" action?
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2017-07-17, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
Dragon Magic has the Dragonscale Husk, Races of Eberron has Kalashtar racial sub levels for Soulknife (not applicable assuming we're sticking to core races), but more important are the articles.
Soulknife has this one with two ACFs I'd take in a heartbeat.
As the samurai there's this article, particularly Skilled City-Dweller.
I would really like to expand races out, but I understand if we want to keep things in base races
As an aside, Autohypnosis specifies that it is for fear effects with saves, which Intimidate does not have.
CW Samurai has 2+Int skills. It's OA Samurai that has 4+Int skills, and they have things to spend it on.Last edited by The Viscount; 2017-07-17 at 08:10 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2017-07-17, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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2017-07-17, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2017-07-19, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
I have the level 20 Soulknife ready for testing. I avoided all TO. https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1276961
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2017-07-19, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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2017-07-19, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
One thing, how will we do the fight? PbP, Skype or Roll20? Or do we decide that later?
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2017-07-19, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
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2017-07-19, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
- Location
- Virgo Supercluster
- Gender
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2017-07-19, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2016
- Location
- Virgo Supercluster
Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
The False Balance Fallacy
The tendency to interpret the rules, not based on any validity with RAW or logic, but that which makes the game (in their eyes) more balanced.
This tendency is often fueled by the incorrect belief that the game is balanced or the desire for it to be.
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2017-07-19, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
- Location
- DPT's Window
- Gender
Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
Last edited by flappeercraft; 2017-07-19 at 06:00 PM.
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2017-07-19, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Virgo Supercluster
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2017-07-19, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
CW Samurai
No multiclassing
No 3rd party
No custom magic items (other than weapons/armor as those are almost all custom)
No silly combos that would work as well on a commoner as on the Samurai (ie candle of solar chain gating BS)
Basically, the idea is to actually test the two classes against each other, not test your ability to cleverly abuse mechanics outside those classes. Just try to stay true to that idea and I'm sure you'll be fine. If you have any questions post them here and people can weigh in.
I feel like if we could all agree on a time, roll20 is best because it has a grid. However, PbP is a lot easier to pull off.
Also, should we do best of 3 with 3 different scenarios? I was thinking:
First fight - Standard large circular arena
Second fight - Series of floating 20' x 20' platforms. (this would really need roll20).
Tiebreaker - They fight in an elevator (5' x 10' room)
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2017-07-19, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- NYC
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Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-07-19, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
Basically it is
1. No multiclassing so level 20 Samurai
2. Normal WBL and no more than 50% for a single item so 760,000 total and no more than 380,000 per item
3. No custom magic items (No magic items that have not been printed anywhere)
4. Not decided on Elite array or PB but I went with 32 PB since its the usual
5. No Wish looping
6. No UMD/UPD builds
7. There has been no statement on sources so I just went with Dragon Mag and 1st party
8. Go RAI, RAW where needed to use
9. No DCFS
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2017-07-19, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Virgo Supercluster
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Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
OK, other than those restrictions, are all source books (including Dragon Magazine) allowed?
That's a pretty good point. It can be fun, I guess, but maybe we should run the Same Game Test?
Edit:
OK, I'll start building my Samurai.Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2017-07-19 at 06:11 PM.
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2017-07-19, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
Yeah, Roll20 might be the best, although if scheduling is too hard to pull off maybe we could make it Roll20/PbP, you make a post detailing what you do then move on roll20 which would help visualize the stuff that happens.
First Fight: No Feedback
Second Fight: How would we get from place to place if we have no access to flying as mundanes or should we just use part of the WBL to get mobility to move from one to the other?
Tiebreaker: Wouldn't the problem with that be that mobility based builds if any are screwed with that?
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2017-07-19, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
I agree that in a LOT of situations pvp is a bad test, but here, since these classes are both basically melee brawlers with some additional abilities, it's not a bad test.
Same game might be good to do as well, but that's not really an "Ultimate Showdown" now is it?
The platforms would be close enough that they should be jumpable by reasonable characters.
Mobility would be a big advantage in both of the first two scenarios, making the third different was on purpose.Last edited by Hackulator; 2017-07-19 at 06:29 PM.
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2017-07-19, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Virgo Supercluster
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Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
Are we using the Magic Item Compendium rules for combining two items into one?
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2017-07-19, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
Darn, should have built the samurai when I declared intent.
Good luck, ColorBlindNinja.Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2017-07-19, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
Thanks, I'll give it my best shot.
Edit:
Here's my build, I spend too much GP on misc. gear and realized too late my weapon/armor suck. Still very much a work in progress...
Spoiler: Sammy the Samurai
Level 20 Samurai
Dragonborn, Lesser Cansin
STR: 27 (+8)
DEX: 18 (+4)
CON: 22 (+6)
INT: 16 (+3)
WIS: 14 (+2)
CHA: 34 (+12)
Initiative: +12
BAB: 20/15/10/5
Melee: 28/23/18/13
AC: 20
FORT: +23
REF: +15
WILL: +9 (+29 with Moment of the Perfect Mind)
Skills:
Intimidate: +38 (23 Ranks)
Concentration: +29 (23 Ranks)
Flaws:
Fussy: -4 to poison on Fort Saves, can't drink potions or becomes naueseated
Love of Nature: DC 12 Will save VS attacking Animals, Vermin, and Plants
Racial Abilities:
Flight
Spoiler: Feats
Martial Stance: Moment of the Perfect Mind
Power Attack
Skill Focus: Intimidate
Improved Bull Rush
Imperious Command
Improved Initative (Bonus Feat)
Shock Trooper
Shape Soulmeld (Crystal Helm) [+2 to WILL VS Charm/Complusion, when bound, all attack gain FORCE descriptor]
Open Least Chakra (Crown, +1 to WILL)
Split Chakra
Spoiler: Class Features
Daisho Profciency
Two Swords as One (Improved, Greater)
Kiai Smite 4/day
Iajjutsu Master
Staredown (Improved)
Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
Mass Staredown
Frightful Presence
Spoiler: Gear
Cloak of Resistance (25,000 GP)
Manual of Gainful Exercise (137,500)
Tome of Leadership and Influence (137,500)
Cowl of Warding (200,800)
Belt of Magnificence +6 (200,000)
+2 Fearsome Death Ward Mithral Chainmail (7,250)
+1 Eager Initiative Greatsword (38,350, +4 init)
4,850 GP left
Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2017-07-19 at 07:39 PM.
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2017-07-19, 07:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
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2017-07-19, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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2017-07-19, 11:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2012
Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown
Ok my samurai is finished and ready for action. Let me know if there are any questions, or we can start the deathmatch.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2017-07-20, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown