Stolen Breath in Environments without Air(3.5)

[SirNibbles]

If you cast the Stolen Breath spell (Spell Compendium, page 207) on someone in a place where they can't breathe (depleted air, underwater, etc.) do they immediately begin suffocating/drowning? The rules for drowning/suffocating both allow you hold your breath to avoid them, but can you hold your breath if you have no breath?

[Venger]

If you cast the Stolen Breath spell (Spell Compendium, page 207) on someone in a place where they can't breathe (depleted air, underwater, etc.) do they immediately begin suffocating/drowning? The rules for drowning/suffocating both allow you hold your breath to avoid them, but can you hold your breath if you have no breath?

stolen breath just sickens, it doesn't actually invoke the suffocation/drowning rules. there's no provisions about being unable to cast it in such environments, so you can use it just fine.

[SirNibbles]

stolen breath just sickens, it doesn't actually invoke the suffocation/drowning rules. there's no provisions about being unable to cast it in such environments, so you can use it just fine.

"With this spell, you steal all the air from the subject’s lungs, causing it to suffer a momentary respiratory crisis." - Spell Compendium, page 207

That's the part to which I was referring.

[Keltest]

*puts on GM hat*

Based entirely on the spell description given here, I would say that yes, if they were in an environment where they could not immediately replenish their air, they would then start suffocating or drowning or whatever environmentally appropriate action would occur. The momentary respiratory crisis would become a longer term one because they are unable to correct it.

*gm hat off*

Having said that, if youre fighting somebody who can cast in an airless environment and you don't have magical breathing options available, you dun goofed anyway.

[Venger]

"With this spell, you steal all the air from the subject’s lungs, causing it to suffer a momentary respiratory crisis." - Spell Compendium, page 207

That's the part to which I was referring.

Right, I know. I'm familiar with the spell. That's flavor text, it doesn't have anything to do with the spell's mechanical effect, which is the sickened condition for one minute. It doesn't apply the suffocation rules like other spells, such as choking sands.

*puts on GM hat*

Based entirely on the spell description given here, I would say that yes, if they were in an environment where they could not immediately replenish their air, they would then start suffocating or drowning or whatever environmentally appropriate action would occur. The momentary respiratory crisis would become a longer term one because they are unable to correct it.

*gm hat off*

Having said that, if youre fighting somebody who can cast in an airless environment and you don't have magical breathing options available, you dun goofed anyway.

That's not what the spell does.

[Keltest]

Right, I know. I'm familiar with the spell. That's flavor text, it doesn't have anything to do with the spell's mechanical effect, which is the sickened condition for one minute. It doesn't apply the suffocation rules like other spells, such as choking sands.



That's not what the spell does.

Dismissing the flavor text as irrelevant is missing the point of both the question and the flavor text. The spell causes the sickened condition by removing the air from their lungs. It doesn't apply the suffocation rules because the spell, by itself, does not cause suffocation; it doesn't do anything on its own to stop you from just inhaling again, although youll be choking and whatnot while doing so. Its the airless environment that is causing the suffocation.

Normally there are rules for holding your breath that allow you to stave that off. The rules do not say whether or not having the air removed from your lungs prevents you from doing so. Logic does say that it would.

[Venger]

Dismissing the flavor text as irrelevant is missing the point of both the question and the flavor text. The spell causes the sickened condition by removing the air from their lungs. It doesn't apply the suffocation rules because the spell, by itself, does not cause suffocation; it doesn't do anything on its own to stop you from just inhaling again, although youll be choking and whatnot while doing so. Its the airless environment that is causing the suffocation.

Normally there are rules for holding your breath that allow you to stave that off. The rules do not say whether or not having the air removed from your lungs prevents you from doing so. Logic does say that it would.

No, it's not.

The cause of the sickened condition is immaterial. If I cast eyebite on you underwater and you get sickened, you don't have to start the drowning rules next round, because they have nothing to do with each other.

Even if I used spell thematics and had a tiny gremlin sit on the target's chest and suck the air from his lungs as my own personal version of eyebite, it would not invoke the drowning rules.

Fluff text is fun, but it does not change what the mechanical effect of the spell is.

The spell's a 2 with no save. Balance wise, even in a restrictive scenario like being underwater, you shouldn't be able to execute enemies with it at level 3.

[Keltest]

No, it's not.

The cause of the sickened condition is immaterial. If I cast eyebite on you underwater and you get sickened, you don't have to start the drowning rules next round, because they have nothing to do with each other.

Even if I used spell thematics and had a tiny gremlin sit on the target's chest and suck the air from his lungs as my own personal version of eyebite, it would not invoke the drowning rules.

Fluff text is fun, but it does not change what the mechanical effect of the spell is.

The spell's a 2 with no save. Balance wise, even in a restrictive scenario like being underwater, you shouldn't be able to execute enemies with it at level 3.

Sure, and punpun may be rules legal, but that doesn't mean that's actually a legitimate thing to do in a game.

The spell description says you don't have air in your lungs. Ergo you don't have air in your lungs. That it is not a status effect does not mean it isn't part of the spell.

In other words, youre in "the DM throws a book at you" levels of rules lawyering.

[Venger]

Sure, and punpun may be rules legal, but that doesn't mean that's actually a legitimate thing to do in a game.

The spell description says you don't have air in your lungs. Ergo you don't have air in your lungs. That it is not a status effect does not mean it isn't part of the spell.

In other words, youre in "the DM throws a book at you" levels of rules lawyering.

That's a false equivalency. Even if it were accurate, you'd be the one advocating illegal RAW, since you say fluff text has mechanical consequences (which it doesn't)

The spell description doesn't say that, the fluff text does. It doesn't make you start to drown like, say, the drown spell, because that's not part of the spell.

augment familiar says it makes your familiar "quicker and stronger," but that doesn't mean you can add a bonus onto its movement speed because the word "quicker" appears in the fluff text. the mechanics of what the spell actually does are very clear, as they are with stolen breath. it sickens you for 1 minute. it does not drown or suffocate you.

[Keltest]

That's a false equivalency. Even if it were accurate, you'd be the one advocating illegal RAW, since you say fluff text has mechanical consequences (which it doesn't)

The spell description doesn't say that, the fluff text does. It doesn't make you start to drown like, say, the drown spell, because that's not part of the spell.

augment familiar says it makes your familiar "quicker and stronger," but that doesn't mean you can add a bonus onto its movement speed because the word "quicker" appears in the fluff text. the mechanics of what the spell actually does are very clear, as they are with stolen breath. it sickens you for 1 minute. it does not drown or suffocate you.

Youre absolutely correct. The airless environment is drowning/suffocating you. This spell is just skipping the "hold your breath for conx2 rounds + save" part because it causes you to not be able to hold your breath.

[Fouredged Sword]

As a DM I would not spring this on players without fair warning.

If a player pulled this on me I would probably allow it.

THEN it would be fair game to pull on the players after using greater dispel magic to remove their waterbreathing spell.

[The Viscount]

Youre absolutely correct. The airless environment is drowning/suffocating you. This spell is just skipping the "hold your breath for conx2 rounds + save" part because it causes you to not be able to hold your breath.

If this spell would prompt a character to begin suffocating when holding their breath, then wouldn't it mean that the target could just breathe in to end the effect if it were cast in an environment where they were breathing?

If the answer to that question is yes, why would they not write something to that effect, like with blinding spittle?

Stepping outside the specifics of the words, we have one interpretation that makes a level 2 spell a debuff against the target and another that makes it a save or die in the right circumstance. From pure game balance, which makes more sense?

[Keltest]

If this spell would prompt a character to begin suffocating when holding their breath, then wouldn't it mean that the target could just breathe in to end the effect if it were cast in an environment where they were breathing?

If the answer to that question is yes, why would they not write something to that effect, like with blinding spittle?

Stepping outside the specifics of the words, we have one interpretation that makes a level 2 spell a debuff against the target and another that makes it a save or die in the right circumstance. From pure game balance, which makes more sense?

Given that this is 3.5? The latter, frankly. But bear in mind that that circumstance is "in an airless environment without an alternate means of breathing", and how many people are going to be doing that... at all, really, let alone when 2nd level spells are the best thing they have?