OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

he's been given command of an attack run on the Death Star

He has? Wasn't he like Red Comet 6 or something? The guys in charge where either 1s or leads or something.

I recall he was given command later, but at that point he was of course a decorated war hero, so it made sense.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

He has? Wasn't he like Red Comet 6 or something? The guys in charge where either 1s or leads or something.

I recall he was given command later, but at that point he was of course a decorated war hero, so it made sense.

Grey Wolf

"kid get set up to make your attack run." - Gold Leader, IIRC.

He wasn't given command of a squadron, but he was given command of a unit of two other fighters. He gives orders to Wedge and Biggs, which they obey.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"kid get set up to make your attack run." - Gold Leader, IIRC.

He wasn't given command of a squadron, but he was given command of a unit of two other fighters. He gives orders to Wedge and Biggs, which they obey.

So, of three green-behind-the-ears pilots who are all friends, they make the one the other two vouch for the centre in the formation of all three? That's not command. That's just positioning. I wouldn't consider that equivalent to even corporal, and a corporal is not in the command structure.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

So, of three green-behind-the-ears pilots who are all friends, they make the one the other two vouch for the centre in the formation of all three? That's not command. That's just positioning. I wouldn't consider that equivalent to even corporal, and a corporal is not in the command structure.

Grey Wolf

One unknown bumpkin pilot, his friend who went to the Imperial Academy and was formally trained, and the pilot the bumpkin said a couple words to in the briefing (Luke had no ties to Wedge other than that at this time).

Bumpkin gets command and the shot. That's not positioning, that's random at best. Command, in this case, being ordering around the formally trained pilot and unknown entity pilot, who we can assume has been with the Rebellion for more than 15 minutes like Luke has.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One unknown bumpkin pilot, his friend who went to the Imperial Academy and was formally trained, and the pilot the bumpkin said a couple words to in the briefing (Luke had no ties to Wedge other than that at this time).

Bumpkin gets command and the shot. That's not positioning, that's random at best.

Again, that is not a command position. Not in any military structure I've ever heard of. It's barely corporal-like rank, and that's being generous.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Again, that is not a command position. Not in any military structure I've ever heard of. It's barely corporal-like rank, and that's being generous.

Grey Wolf

The word is unimportant. Call it squad leader if you want, what matters is others who the Rebellion already know and trust and who have actual training and experience take a backseat to a guy whose CV is another guy saying "he's pretty good" on a "this is the only way to save the main hub of the Rebellion" importance-level mission.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The word is unimportant. Call it squad leader if you want, what matters is others who the Rebellion already know and trust and who have actual training and experience take a backseat to a guy whose CV is another guy saying "he's pretty good" on a "this is the only way to save the main hub of the Rebellion" importance-level mission.

The word is not unimportant. Squad leader is the guy giving him the orders. Anything ranked sergeant and below is not in command, they just pass the orders along. Guy the boss talks to out of three is not even a rank.

And the impression I got was that the Rebellion couldn't afford to be choosy. They seemed to have more ships than they had pilots. The guys Luke talked to seem no more familiar with the damned things than he was, so again: from the perspective of actual command, it was one of the three, and if one is already talking up another, you might as well talk to the one the other will listen to.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

The word is not unimportant. Squad leader is the guy giving him the orders. Anything ranked sergeant and below is not in command, they just pass the orders along. Guy the boss talks to out of three is not even a rank.

And the impression I got was that the Rebellion couldn't afford to be choosy. They seemed to have more ships than they had pilots. The guys Luke talked to seem no more familiar with the damned things than he was, so again: from the perspective of actual command, it was one of the three, and if one is already talking up another, you might as well talk to the one the other will listen to.

Grey Wolf

I was thinking "squad leader" in the US military sense where even a private can be that. Because the title is unimportant, he is shown to be able to give orders to Biggs and Wedge, so for whatever their command structure is, he is higher up than they are in this fight. And while Wedge's history is unknown, we do know Biggs went to the Academy, so he's the more logical choice than the kid who just came in off the street. Can't afford to be choose also means can't afford to misappropriate resources. Putting Luke in charge of Biggs makes no sense and giving him the shot makes no sense.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If I remember correctly, Virgil doesn't go with Dante to the Paradise, but rather has to return to Limbo.

Correct. As a pagan, Virgil is not allowed in Paradise (the poem doesn't make it clear where he does spend his time, IMS). Dante's guide in Paradise is Beatrice.

Or like I said before Sherlock Holmes, a clear Mary Sue, how'd he get to be such a detective huh? Why would the best detective ever live with some random doctor? Its unrealistic I tell you!

First, he trained himself. He even says so repeatedly. Second, a mutual acquaintance hooked him up with Watson because he needed a new roommate to split costs with while Watson needed a place to crash while he recovered from his war wounds.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I was thinking "squad leader" in the US military sense where even a private can be that. Because the title is unimportant, he is shown to be able to give orders to Biggs and Wedge, so for whatever their command structure is, he is higher up than they are in this fight. And while Wedge's history is unknown, we do know Biggs went to the Academy, so he's the more logical choice than the kid who just came in off the street. Can't afford to be choose also means can't afford to misappropriate resources. Putting Luke in charge of Biggs makes no sense and giving him the shot makes no sense.

You're confusing branches. Red Leader is a squadron leader in the Air Force sense, as he commands a squadron of fighters. Luke is basically chopped an ad hoc flight, probably because he's been shown to be a competent enough pilot to score kills and make repeated successful strafing runs. Biggs is shown doing nothing besides yell at someone and be a target.

In a watsonian sense, I'd guess Luke showed a great deal of aptitude in the simulator when they checked him out in the T-65, likely aided by Incom giving each craft the exact same control layout to encourage familiarity and thus repeat business.

[Peelee]

You're confusing branches. Red Leader is a squadron leader in the Air Force sense, as he commands a squadron of fighters. Luke is basically chopped an ad hoc flight, probably because he's been shown to be a competent enough pilot to score kills and make repeated successful strafing runs. Biggs is shown doing nothing besides yell at someone and be a target.

If be amazed if they hadn't planned out ahead of time who would get the runs on the exhaust port, but even if it was on the fly, Wedge out-performs Luke and should have gotten it instead. No matter how it shakes out, Luke getting priority over the other two doesnt make much sense.

In a watsonian sense, I'd guess Luke showed a great deal of aptitude in the simulator when they checked him out in the T-65, likely aided by Incom giving each craft the exact same control layout to encourage familiarity and thus repeat business.

Gold leader asks if he can even handle an X-Wing seconds before Luke hops into his to take off. Doesn't sound like there was any sim time.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Luke never talks to a Y-Wing jockey. And in any case, a different squadron leader gets no say in the running of Red Squadron.

[Peelee]

Luke never talks to a Y-Wing jockey. And in any case, a different squadron leader gets no say in the running of Red Squadron.

The narrative establishes that Luke is unproven in the eyes of the Rebellion. That's all I need for my argument to work.

That said, you're right, Luke doesn't talk to Gold Leader. He talks to Garven Dreis, Red Leader. Who, I dare say, does get a say in the running of Red Squadron.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yes, he does. For about 20 minutes.

[Peelee]

Yes, he does. For about 20 minutes.

Aye. Long enough to assign a last-minute addition who has less experience and training than Biggs and performs worse than and has his life saved by Wedge as the one to make the last shot they'll have before the whole Rebellion goes up in flames.

[Fyraltari]

Correct. As a pagan, Virgil is not allowed in Paradise

And just as importantly, Dante did not use the Aeneid as a source for Purgatory and Heaven and as such Virgil does not guide him there.

[Cazero]

If be amazed if they hadn't planned out ahead of time who would get the runs on the exhaust port, but even if it was on the fly, Wedge out-performs Luke and should have gotten it instead. No matter how it shakes out, Luke getting priority over the other two doesnt make much sense.

Wedge did get the shot. And command. Luke doesn't get those until after Wedge missed his shot and is forced to pull out by damage on his craft and someone else got taken down trying to make the shot. Luke is taking charge of the three remaining privates of Red Squadron because he's the first to talk or something.
You now have an excuse to watch that movie again. You're welcome.

edit : on second thought, I have the uncomfortable feeling of being completely wrong about everything. Maybe I need to watch that movie again.

[hamishspence]

Wedge did get the shot. And command. Luke doesn't get those until after Wedge missed his shot and is forced to pull out by damage on his craft and someone else got taken down trying to make the shot. Luke is taking charge of the three remaining privates of Red Squadron because he's the first to talk or something.
You now have an excuse to watch that movie again. You're welcome.

In the Duty Roster short story in the newcanon anthology From A Certain Point of View, Red Squadron is divided into 4 Flights of 3 fighters before the battle. Luke is given command of Fourth Flight, the very last one, which consists of him, Biggs, and Wedge.

This is fairly consistent with what we see - Luke is issuing orders to Wedge and Biggs during their run, before Wedge is forced to pull out.

[Cazero]

Hehheh... I might have been mixing up Wedge and Red Leader in my head.

[Schroeswald]

First, he trained himself. He even says so repeatedly. Second, a mutual acquaintance hooked him up with Watson because he needed a new roommate to split costs with while Watson needed a place to crash while he recovered from his war wounds.

I mean I would like to say this a few times in this thread, I do not think a single character mentioned so far is a Mary Sue, not a single one, and especially not Sherlock Holmes. But your disproving didn't actually do a great job. "Training yourself" is honestly the most Mary Sue way to get skills (but Holmes is not a Mary Sue), and yep, I know why you become roommates with strangers, but my point was why some great detective would need to because obviously he's super rich, I probably should use blue text a bit more than I do.

[Fyraltari]

For the record, Holmes is a drug-addict and his brother is better at his job than he is.

[Goblin_Priest]

A key point about Mary Sues is their relation to the setting.

{scrubbed}

Superheroes are ridiculously powerful characters, but they stem in worlds of ridiculously powerful other characters. These settings usually have some sort of premise that explains such powers. Radioactive chemicals, aliens, demons, whatever. Something's different about those worlds than our own, and that difference serves to explain the power of the heroes, and the villains they are pitted against.

Luke's power is baseline for a jedi in the setting. Setting aside very critical aspects of his power curve (like the fact that he's mentored, related to a powerful jedi, has to train a lot, picks up powers scarcely over the movies, and overall fails a lot, unlike Rey), A New Hope is the the setting framer. It sets the framework of the story, lays out the foundations of the world. Every successive installation builds upon it.

The prequels greatly expanded on the lore of the force and the jedi, and showcasted new fighting styles, explanations for the force, but overall did not really go much against established lore (other than for tidbits like Padmé dying in childbirth, raising the question of who the heck Leia saw as a child). Lucas, for all his flaws, loved world building. I happen to do too. And despite the cringy dialogues and CGI that ran rampant in the prequels, I still overall have a positive opinion of them. I actually liked the politics. /shrug

The sequels, on the other hand, are a schizophrenic mess, torn between imitating the original trilogy in order to milk the franchise as safely as possible, and "subverting expectations", but ****ting on all the lore and offering no explanations why. If you've got 6 whole movies of characters doing things one way, and then you start doing something completely different, an explanation is to be expected. And that goes as much for why Rey is so powerful and able to do everything without anyone showing her as for other bits like "why weren't hyperdrives weaponized before?".

The last example is really the worst offender of the sequels, in my opinion. The movies are aptly called Star Wars. Every movie in the franchise features a war in space. Wars which reached epic proportions, with countless systems pitted against each other. And despite all these wars, over all these generations, nobody thought to try the most basic tactic of naval warfare (ramming) before Miss Giraffe came along?

[Worldsong]

I'll second the thought that if nobody had ever suggested using the ability to go really fast to ram things into other things that seems a bit odd. I mean, that's about as basic a method of weaponizing anything as you can think of.

[Dion]

Weren't we trying to give examples of Rey-comparable characters who clearly weren't Mary Sues?

I thought we were still trying to agree on a shared definition of what a Mary Sue is.

[Schroeswald]

I thought we were still trying to agree on a shared definition of what a Mary Sue is.

My definition is “a mostly useless term that is being moved from its narrow original use to apply to any character, usually female, that the user doesn’t like”, does that work?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I thought we were still trying to agree on a shared definition of what a Mary Sue is.

That's like asking for an agreement on a shared definition for the word bank, where some people insist on using to strictly refer only to the side of a river, when it is clear it also means a business involving storage and management of currency.

Mary Sue used to mean a very specific type of character. This days it is a generic insult for female characters. That's just the way it is, with insults. And as with most other insults, it says more about the person that uses it than it does about what they are using it on.

Grey Wolf

[Dion]

My definition is “a mostly useless term that is being moved from its narrow original use to apply to any character, usually female, that the user doesn’t like”, does that work?

That’s my definition too!

[Worldsong]

My definition of Mary Sue is a character who sues Mary.

Poor Mary.

[Fyraltari]

That's like asking for an agreement on a shared definition for the word bank, where some people insist on using to strictly refer only to the side of a river, when it is clear it also means a business involving storage and management of currency.

Mary Sue used to mean a very specific type of character. This days it is a generic insult. That's just the way it is, with insults. And as with most other insults, it says more about the person that uses it than it does about what they are using it on.

Grey Wolf

I disagree. Bank and bank are two different nouns derived from Italian and Danish respectively that just happen to sound and be spelled the same. Mary Sue is just experiencing a shift in meaning.

[Peelee]

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