Half-orc Rogue

[GreatWyrmGold]

I have a character concept that is simmering, so to speak, for 3.5 D&D. A half-orc rouge, raised on the city streets, running after taking revenge.

The question I have is: How do I play/build such a character well?

[PopcornMage]

A Half-Orc and make-up is a bad combination.

[mootoall]

I dunno, the right amount of eye shadow could really bring out those mud brown eyes ...

But in all seriousness, the half-orc gets -2 cha, -2 int. Besides hurting your skill points, there's nothing especially difficult about making a rogue. 19 levels of rogue isn't a bad class.

[The Rose Dragon]

With great difficulty. I mean, half-orcs don't really have cheekbones to emphasize. Their facial structure is quite different from humans', so a rouge won't be of much help.

I suggest lipstick instead.

[Road_Runner]

With great difficulty. I mean, half-orcs don't really have cheekbones to emphasize. Their facial structure is quite different from humans', so a rouge won't be of much help.

I suggest lipstick instead.

Yes, but his red complexion would go nicely with his revenge backstory.

[Mystic Muse]

So, is this half orc, half make-up or is it just a half- Orc with makeup on him/her?

[AslanCross]

Hey, rouge doesn't look so bad on female orcs.

[Starbuck_II]

I have a character concept that is simmering, so to speak, for D&D. A half-orc rouge, raised on the city streets, running after taking revenge.

The question I have is: How do I play/build such a character well?

Races of Destiny or

Prc in book:
Menacing Brute
outcast Champion

Cityscape:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a

Assassination is a good weapon ability.

[Swooper]

Damn rouges, so overpowdered
I love how this thread instantly became a discussion about make-up.

[John Campbell]

Hey, rouge doesn't look so bad on female orcs.

<ic char="Toghrul">
Bah. That not orc. That elf painted green. Scrawny arms, weak jaw, no tooths. Real orc woman break her with one hand.
</ic>

[Sploosh]

Works great in 4e. Brutal scoundrel, ho!

[kabof]

Desert Half-Orc
Half-Orc Paragon 3/Uncanny Trickster 3/Fighter 14 (Sneak Attack and Thug variants).

01. Fighter: Craven
02. Half-Orc Paragon
03. Half-Orc Paragon: Intimidating Rage
04. Half-Orc Paragon
05. Fighter
06. Fighter: Imperious Command, Zhentarim Soldier, Never Outnumbered Skill Trick
07. Fighter
08. Uncanny Trickster
09. Fighter: Instantaneous Rage, Zhentarim Soldier
10. Fighter
11. Fighter
12. Fighter: Extra Rage
13. Fighter: Zhentarim Soldier
14. Uncanny Trickster
15. Uncanny Trickster: Staggering Strike?

I guess I need a suggestion fot the last feat.

[Coidzor]

Desert Half-Orc
Half-Orc Paragon 3/Fighter 17 (Sneak Attack and Thug variants).

01. Fighter: Craven
02. Half-Orc Paragon
03. Half-Orc Paragon: Intimidating Rage
04. Half-Orc Paragon
05. Fighter
06. Fighter: Imperious Command, Zhentarim Soldier
07. Fighter
08. Fighter: Zhentarim Soldier
09. Fighter: Instantaneous Rage
10. Fighter
11. Fighter
12. Fighter: Extra Rage, Zhentarim Soldier

Add on the Never Outnumbered skill trick from Complete Scoundrel (2 skill points, same pre-requisites as Imperious Command). If possible, follow up with a level of Battle Trickster or two (also from Complete Scoundrel) in order to be able to use Never Outnumbered more than once in a fight, though I'm less sure of this suggestion.

[kabof]

Yes, I forgot to wirte about the Skill Trick, even thought I used it in the original build. Good thinking about the PrC, anyway.

EDIT: Oh, my bad. There is a Battle Trickster. oO

EDIT EDITED: Looks like the PrC that allows you to use a Trick twice in combat is the Uncanny Trickster. A small problem is that you need 4 skill tricks to enter on it (but since it has 8 skill points/level, it's going to pay itself eventually). It also has UMD as a class skill, which is good. The small downside is that you lose 1d6 sneak attack and 1 BAB, but I guess that's a small price to pay for giving your party 2 extra rounds at the start of every combat. The big downside is that if you start progressing the UT beferoe level 13, you're going to delay the Zentharim Soldier capstone ability. All in all, I would try to fit only the first level of UT by mid-levels and the later 2 by the end of the build.

[Coidzor]

Yes, I forgot to wirte about the Skill Trick, even thought I used it in the original build. Good thinking about the Battle Trickster, anyway.

Well, I was annoyed that the main power of it, the ability to burst-cower, was once per encounter and then I opened up Complete Scoundrel to look up Uncanny Trickster to see if it'd be worthwhile for a ranger I'm building.

Though I made a mistake, Battle Trickster doesn't actually grant an extra use of a skill trick, it grants bonus skill tricks, a bonus feat, and a bonus to attacking when using skill tricks. Whoops, sorry.

Hmm, browsing Complete Scoundrel... Avenging Executioner is also thematically appropriate, though it adds sudden strike dice instead of sneak attack.

4 levels of it would allow you to treat any fear-effected creatures as eligible for the sudden strike (and thus also the sneak attack dice) which opens up for the 1st level ability of forcing a will-save vs. fear which won't do anything to them for the first round if they're cowering from the swift-action demoralize, but on the subsequent round instead of reverting to shaken, they'll be at frightened and so attempt to flee and provoke Attacks of Opportunity (which unfortunately makes the build a bit mad with the requisite charisma, strength, dexterity, and constitution... and potentially intelligence... especially with desert Half-orcs taking penalties to int and cha).

A one level dip would still be useful, though you'd need a way to make your foes flat-footed (can't remember if cowering counts - ah, it does, just checked). So, yeah, a one level dip would be useful to keep the fear effect up to get AoOs (especially with a reach weapon) and taking it to 4 or completion at 5 would also be potentially good. The 2nd level ability would be nice if Zhentarim Fighter didn't give Swift Demoralize which is better than Move Demoralize.

If you can afford 4 skill tricks and 4 skills at 8 ranks (that is 8 * 5, 40 skillpoints), Uncanny Trickster gives a favorite trick that can then be used twice an encounter. So it wouldn't be bad for a 1 level dip. the last two levels also grant an additional level of class features from an existing class, so could be used in conjunction with another dip to get good skills and skillpoints in addition to class features (which does include advancing spellcasting for instance)

[kabof]

Swordsaged while editing.

Anyway, I would stay away from Avenging Executioner. I'm going to edit the build to fit the UT later.

[Yora]

Desert Half-Orc
Half-Orc Paragon 3/Fighter 17 (Sneak Attack and Thug variants).

01. Fighter: Craven
02. Half-Orc Paragon
03. Half-Orc Paragon: Intimidating Rage
04. Half-Orc Paragon
05. Fighter
06. Fighter: Imperious Command, Zhentarim Soldier, Never Outnumbered Skill Trick
07. Fighter
08. Fighter: Zhentarim Soldier
09. Fighter: Instantaneous Rage
10. Fighter
11. Fighter
12. Fighter: Extra Rage, Zhentarim Soldier

I like how that rogue bild does not have a single level of rogue.

[kabof]

Why make things the easy way?

[Renegade Paladin]

Okay, first: Half-orc is actually insanely good for rogue. Why? Because it has darkvision, and without that, rogues cannot sneak attack in the dark. (I personally houserule that rogues can sneak attack a target with concealment, though not full concealment, but you can't count on that.) So that means you can do the rogue thing without it being full daylight.

[Greenish]

I'm reminded that these very forums house an excellent rogue handbook. I'd start from there.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Stuff about rouge

Mih spellink iz naut alwaiz gud.

Races of Destiny or

Prc in book:
Menacing Brute
outcast Champion

Those never really struck me as rouge classes, but...maybe the brute...

Desert Half-Orc
Half-Orc Paragon 3/Uncanny Trickster 3/Fighter 14 (Sneak Attack and Thug variants).

01. Fighter: Craven
02. Half-Orc Paragon
03. Half-Orc Paragon: Intimidating Rage
04. Half-Orc Paragon
05. Fighter
06. Fighter: Imperious Command, Zhentarim Soldier, Never Outnumbered Skill Trick
07. Fighter
08. Uncanny Trickster
09. Fighter: Instantaneous Rage, Zhentarim Soldier
10. Fighter
11. Fighter
12. Fighter: Extra Rage
13. Fighter: Zhentarim Soldier
14. Uncanny Trickster
15. Uncanny Trickster: Staggering Strike?

I guess I need a suggestion for the last feat.

Thatt is...a lot.
Wow. Thanks for being so specific. Less so because of...

I like how that rogue build does not have a single level of rogue.

That makes one of us.

Why make things the easy way?

Because the hard way doesn't really do what it's, in theory, supposed to.
Although I guess it makes sense...

[Zhalath]

Despite the Cha penalty, half-orcs have Disguise as a class skill, so you can get pretty good at it.

With half-orc, Weapon Finesse seems less useful, which is my usual rogue suggestion.

[Coidzor]

In that case... Here's a build, not necessarily what you want, but it might be of interest or food for thought at least.

Spoiler

Show

Rogue 1: Trapfinding traded for Poison Use
Rogue 2: Evasion
Cloistered Cleric 1: Travel Devotion, Domain of Choice (I'd recommend magic offhand to save on UMD ranks for wands), and Knowledge domain/devotion.
Scout 1: Trapfinding
Scout 2:
Scout 3: Qualify for Swift Ambusher, so take swift ambusher (2d6 skirmish, 3d6 sneak attack) or take another level of scout and get it as a bonus feat possibly and take imperious command here.
[Scout 4]
Avenging Executioner 1:
Avenging Executioner 2: Rapid Intimidation
Uncanny Trickster 1: Favorite Trick: Never Outnumbered
[Uncanny trickster 2-3: advance rogue/scout as desired or avenging executioner. (if scout would get a second evasion to trade for spell reflection)]

That's a rough skeleton of a level 9-12ish build.

Wand of Grease, marbles, or other way of denying dex to the enemy(flat-footed, even), move action intimidate all in a burst, travel devotion a second move action to trigger skirmish and whack on one to trigger a fear to make them try to flee, and hopefully either be unable to due to failing balance checks or actually fall prone and become unable to flee, allowing you to mop up all equal or lesser opponents. Against higher level foes imperious command for a move action is still locking them down if they fail and allowing you to deal your damage.

And of course, the Rogue Handbooks floating around have various role suggestions...

If you just want trapfinding, you can always dip factotum for 1st level with that Sneak Attack Thug Fighter build and combine it with able learner to make all skills class skills.

[Cadian 9th]

Strength based rogue isn't bad. But the Sneak attack fighter does well, I think. With that human heritage feat for extra skills.

EDIT: Thug, yeah.

[kabof]

Oh. I had the (wrong) impression that "half-orc rogue" was the concept and that you were open to suggestions about classes that have a rogue feel. Anyway, no harm done, I hope.

[Greenish]

Strength based rogue isn't bad. But the Sneak attack fighter does well, I think. With that human heritage feat for extra skills.

Sneak Attack Thug is sort of poor. 4+int skills from a very limited list, SA, and nothing else ever!

If one wants BAB and SA, Daring Outlaw is better.

[Cadian 9th]

Sneak Attack Thug is sort of poor. 4+int skills from a very limited list, SA, and nothing else ever!

If one wants BAB and SA, Daring Outlaw is better.

Versus rogues getting evasion, uncanny dodge and all kinds of awesome? I think full base attack and a d10 HD comes in handy. For 1st level its nice...

Combine it with Hit and Run fighter and you've got a decent choice for 3 levels, at the very least.

I don't actually think the list is that bad, seeing as you're not getting trapfinding. Depends what he wants from a roguish character.

EDIT: I was talking about a low level build. If you're going past 6th or whatever, yes, Rogue, swashbuckler and daring outlaw is good. Very good.

[Serpentine]

Talking from experience: don't skint on the Int. It's a pain in the rearendium

[GreatWyrmGold]

Oh. I had the (wrong) impression that "half-orc rogue" was the concept and that you were open to suggestions about classes that have a rogue feel. Anyway, no harm done, I hope.

Eh, no harm done. The problem is that, since I don't know anything about the campaign it will be in (because it hasn't even started or been announced or anything), it's best if it's mainly or all core. Not that other stuff isn't fine.
Oh yeah, and I think we were mostly joking about your lack of rouge in a rouge build and not being serious. It's harder to show that on the internet.

[grimbold]

according to the phb rogues can be any race but among the more savage races (e.g half-orcs) they are more like street thugs and muggers than sneaky assassins (like halflings)