afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI

[Tzardok]

Crystal Spheres most of the time only include one world and surrounding things like moons or suns. How exactly the inside of a crystal sphere looks or works depends on the sphere. In one sphere, the stars are glowing crystals on the inside of the sphere; in another one, the stars are overgrown fireflies that crawl slowly over the inside of the sphere; in a third one, elemental lights as big as a fist float between the sphere and the world; etc.

[afroakuma]

Is the Phlogiston (that is, the Prime) canonically infinite? Or is it merely "no edges known to have been found"? (Or if neither, what?)

All natural planes are infinite. Whether the phlogiston covers the totality... well, who knows?

Are Crystal Spheres generally so vast that they contain star formations?

Yes and no. Stars as you conceive of them are nonentities in Spelljammer; the "stars" of the various spheres may take one of a number of forms, but vast spheres of plasma they are not. Some are fungus, some are fire elementals, some are luminous crystals... a few are enormous, bizarre living beings. Constellations exist, however, in most spheres. Of particular note is Krynnspace, where the constellations represent the gods.

[Mr Adventurer]

All natural planes are infinite. Whether the phlogiston covers the totality... well, who knows?



Yes and no. Stars as you conceive of them are nonentities in Spelljammer; the "stars" of the various spheres may take one of a number of forms, but vast spheres of plasma they are not. Some are fungus, some are fire elementals, some are luminous crystals... a few are enormous, bizarre living beings. Constellations exist, however, in most spheres. Of particular note is Krynnspace, where the constellations represent the gods.

Thank you! Both really interesting answers!

There's a line in the DMG along the lines of "unless the books say otherwise, the natural physical world operates as you're used to," more or less. I think it's come up in these threads before. Good to know for sure that astrophysics isn't one of those things!

There's also something which has come to prominence in more recent editions though, and that's the idea that the stars contain occasional entities which are alien and hungry and from which arcane power can be drawn.

It'll be a bit of mental gymnastics to reconcile both but it should be possible to have something coherent.

So far as I know, this is really from 4e onward, so outside scope for this thread.

[Jowgen]

Two questions.

First is about the relative numbers of high-level outsiders. We know Demons are infinite, Devils are at least constant, and... well, that's as much as I know there, but seeing how you probably answered this before I won't pester... but considering death (& demotion), the number of high-level exemplars should be somewhat limited, right? As in, low-to-mid level mooks might be endless, but seeing how there are casualties during ladder-climbing and even top-brass honchos get knocked back down here and again, their numbers should be non-arbitrary.

So yeah, are there any concrete numbers/ranges,on how many top-grade outsiders of each iconic variety there are at any given time? Like, how many Devils manage to concurrently occupy the rank of Pit Fiends at any given time? If there aren't any numbers (which I strongly suspect), would you be willing to give a rough estimate?

Second, I'd like to know how common the practice of brainwashing enemies into allies is on the planes.

Lets say the forces of plane or planar organization X manage to capture a high level operative of enemy plane/organization Y. Maybe they specifically went out to do so because it's their thing or they have a particular reason this time around. Maybe the opportunity happened to present itself. Now, depending on X's nature, they'd obviously torture the captive for information and/or use magic to learn what it knows, before imprisoning it; but why stop there?

There are a lot of magical effects -from the lowly hypnotism to bigger effects like modify memory and mindgrape- that can permanently change at least a target's attitudes, if not their alignment. Using those, the captive could become a spy, a sleeper agent or just a new addition to the organization. Obviously, this is a rather time, effort and possibly resource-consuming endeavor, so it wouldn't be done all the time; but I could see a lot of cases where it might well be worth it.

In an extreme example: yes, magically working a captured Pit Fiend until he truly believes that his compliance will be rewarded would take forever (considering their will-save, SR and how their minds work, not to mention their inherently evil nature); but its a bloody pit fiend. Not only is he powerful as all get out, he is probably close to some significant players back home and naturally excels at intrigue and deception. We've seen how much a single betrayal can accomplish in that society, so there is a lot of strategic value to be had in making it your minion.

So yeah, are there any documented instances of any group or organization regularly employing or at least at one point having successfully resorted to this sort of strategy? If not, why do you think that is?

[afroakuma]

First is about the relative numbers of high-level outsiders.

No.

Second, I'd like to know how common the practice of brainwashing enemies into allies is on the planes.

Not very. It's of course not a good method when you're fighting a battle of souls rather than ideology, and when you couple that with the fact that the various lords of the planes are all powerful and strong-willed beings, many of whom have justifiable reasons to wall themselves off with precautions, the best you can expect to get is a powerful, violent font of alignment toxicity in your ranks, one which will be on the receiving end of not-unjustified suspicion and paranoia. If you grab anyone or anything worth having on record, someone will know and will be ready to deal with it, one way or another.

First is about the relative numbers of high-level outsiders.

To elaborate on this point, still no.

Spoiler

Show

Older editions did try to set a few arbitrary numbers on some of them, but it was rather abortive - for example, there were only six balors (Type VI demons) in existence. They even had names: Balor, Errtu, Ndulu, Ter-Soth, Alzoll, and Wendonai. For trivia's sake, the names of the Type IV demons were Bliwhr, Johud and Nalfeshnee; the names of the Type V demons were Aishapra, Kevokulli, Marilith and Rehnaremme.

It was also indicated that there were strict numbers of modron hierarchs at any given time, though of course killing one would cause the numbers to restabilize immediately. The demodands came in for a share as well - 3333 of each type, exactly, and no more. While the chief archons, the tomes, were said to number exactly seven, they became conflated with the Celestial Hebdomad, who are all unique outsiders.

So, no. Fixed numbers rapidly went the way of the dodo. And given that I can personally name no fewer than 17 pit fiends and there are at least 26 companies of them in the Nine Hells who are not on Blood War duty, to say nothing of those around Asmodeus and the Serpent's Coil, I'ma call that a secure, flat, absolute no.

[WalkingTheShade]

Using those, the captive could become a spy, a sleeper agent or just a new addition to the organization. Obviously, this is a rather time, effort and possibly resource-consuming endeavor, so it wouldn't be done all the time; but I could see a lot of cases where it might well be worth it.

So yeah, are there any documented instances of any group or organization regularly employing or at least at one point having successfully resorted to this sort of strategy? If not, why do you think that is?

The Eternal Boundary Planescape module features a plot by the Green Marvent, from Plague-mort, and the Illuminated sect he leads, to plant brainwashed sleeper agents in Sigil's Factions.

[afroakuma]

Quite true; I misread his question. I thought he was asking about doing it to/it being done by exemplars.

[JoeyTheNeko]

are there any creatures formed of gestalt souls? like, multiple souls of the same alignment all merge together to form one creature that is stronger then the souls would be individually? is there anything like that in D&D?

[Bronk]

are there any creatures formed of gestalt souls? like, multiple souls of the same alignment all merge together to form one creature that is stronger then the souls would be individually? is there anything like that in D&D?

There's the Sharn, and also the Spirit Trees from Ghostwalk...

[Forrestfire]

There's a couple of undead. The Caller in Darkness and that one ghost rat swam from the Monster Manual 3, if I recall correctly.

[Dalmosh]

If one entered Urgulshek via a different means than its Demonweb orifice, than what would one encounter/experience inside?

[Tzardok]

I would think more or less the same. I mean does it matter wether you enter a room per door or per teleportation? Inside is inside in most cases and Ulgurshek is no different.

[Dalmosh]

Depends on the room. Entering a timber factory via the logging chute is quite different from walking into the main reception, and similarly the more complex an organism is, the more specialised its orifices and internal cavities are.

It would depend upon how differentiated a Draeden's anatomy is.
To clarify my question...

Is the Urgulshek Orifice a differentiated gullet type structure designed for digestion, or is it (as you imply) simply a generic hole into a continuous, amorphous biological mass?

Are there differentiated structures and cavities within Urgulshek that are less hostile to exploration and could be reached by other means?

[enderlord99]

Would a hypothetical "Ocean Elemental" be composed of 14 parts Negative Energy to 407 parts Elemental Water, or some other ratio?

[afroakuma]

Are there differentiated structures and cavities within Urgulshek that are less hostile to exploration and could be reached by other means?

Nothing about any part of a draeden would ever be described as "less hostile." Ulgurshek is uniformly deadly and of extremely high lethality throughout.

[Dalmosh]

FC1 states that Lolth occasionally "ventures into Ulgurshek"
does she do so Astrally, by sending a physical Avatar or by some other means?

What are the risks to a being of her stature of such a communion, and how does she ward herself against them?

[afroakuma]

FC1 states that Lolth occasionally "ventures into Ulgurshek"
does she do so Astrally, by sending a physical Avatar or by some other means?

Given that that's the sum total of canon on it? Who knows. I assume she goes in avatar form.

What are the risks to a being of her stature of such a communion

Nothing significant. She's a goddess.

[M Placeholder]

There's a couple of undead. The Caller in Darkness and that one ghost rat swam from the Monster Manual 3, if I recall correctly.

The Caller in Darkness was a result of the attempted destruction of Dregoth, one of the Champions of Rajaat, by his fellow Sorcerer Kings on the prime world of Athas. Dregoth was about to become a fully fledged Dragon, so they attacked Dregoth in his city of Giustenal, they opened up so many vortexes to the inner planes that they created the biggest storm the plane had ever seen.

The souls of those that died that day (with the exception of Dregoth, who rose as a Kaishaga) were trapped and then merged to form The Caller in Darkness. The storm is dying down very slowly as the souls are released to The Gray, but the Caller in Darkness thinks it is dying, so it lures in those that come near the ruins of Giustenal and then drives them to insanity, then to take their own lives.

As for allignment, the people of ancient Guistenal were all different ones, but that was thousands of souls, not dozens as described in the MM3 and the Expanded Psionics Handbook, so it is possible that a Caller in Darkness could be comprised of souls of one allignment.

Another question - how many sentient races call the Ethereal Plane home? I can name the Nathri, any others?

[WalkingTheShade]

Another question - how many sentient races call the Ethereal Plane home? I can name the Nathri, any others?

This page is complete, as far as I know. My favorites are High Clan xills.
EDIT: also, thanks for the information about the Caller in Darkness. I got into D&D with 3.5, and learning of the legacy from previous editions and settings is of great interest to me.

[Jowgen]

Question about Orcus, the Mortal turned Demon turned Deity turned Dead turned Undead turned Dead again turned Demon-Undead (is that right?).

In what way is Orcus tied to his Wand? Does he just really like it, is he somewhat dependent on it, does it have anything to do with his adamant refusal to stay properly dead? Also, do we know where it came from?

[Lord_Gareth]

Question about Orcus, the Mortal turned Demon turned Deity turned Dead turned Undead turned Dead again turned Demon-Undead (is that right?).

In what way is Orcus tied to his Wand? Does he just really like it, is he somewhat dependent on it, does it have anything to do with his adamant refusal to stay properly dead? Also, do we know where it came from?

You can't just ask about a man's Wand like that.

[afroakuma]

In what way is Orcus tied to his Wand? Does he just really like it, is he somewhat dependent on it, does it have anything to do with his adamant refusal to stay properly dead? Also, do we know where it came from?

I've done these already. The Wand of Orcus is basically D&D's spin on the One Ring. He infused some of his own essence into making it, which is why it has value to him when he needs to, say, bounce back from being an undead god slowly rotting to redeath. Orcus made the wand himself.

[Tryxx]

Are demigods and lesser deities still limited in the maximum level spell-slots they can grant their clerics in 3rd edition (5th and 6th level, respectively)?

Also, can a deity move an already established divine realm to a new location (on the same plane, to a new layer, etc)?

[afroakuma]

Are demigods and lesser deities still limited in the maximum level spell-slots they can grant their clerics in 3rd edition (5th and 6th level, respectively)?

No.

Also, can a deity move an already established divine realm to a new location (on the same plane, to a new layer, etc)?

Sure. It takes a while and a good deal of effort, but it's certainly doable.

[Jowgen]

I've done these already.

In the Q&A thread? I did check before hand and found the discussions of Orcus' Bogus Adventure, but nothing on the Wand (other than its function in his adventure and that the skull at the top belongs to some guy whose name starts with an A). Sorry if I missed it.

The Wand of Orcus is basically D&D's spin on the One Ring. He infused some of his own essence into making it, which is why it has value to him when he needs to, say, bounce back from being an undead god slowly rotting to redeath.

Interesting. Is there anything to suggest whether the essence within the wand has sentience (i.e. tiny sealed aspect backup)? What I'm wondering in that regard is, if Orcus were to be sealed (e.g. join the prisoner of Elysium), could his wand serve as a back-up Orcus in some manner (e.g. Diablo-style soulstone)?

Lastly, I doubt there is any info on this, but what about the Wand's destruction? What I mean is, some artifacts' lore alludes to means by which they could be destroyed, sometimes even the ramifications of doing so, and I'm wondering if there is anything like that for the wand. I mean, I do seriously doubt it considering how it got thrown into Pandemonium rather than destroyed; but it can't hurt to ask.

[enderlord99]

What's Big A's alignment on the Law-Chaos axis? No, I meant the other Big A. The one who isn't the alignment you just answered.

[afroakuma]

Interesting. Is there anything to suggest whether the essence within the wand has sentience

Yes, but

(i.e. tiny sealed aspect backup)?

No.

What I'm wondering in that regard is, if Orcus were to be sealed (e.g. join the prisoner of Elysium), could his wand serve as a back-up Orcus in some manner (e.g. Diablo-style soulstone)?

That would be no.

Lastly, I doubt there is any info on this, but what about the Wand's destruction?

Of course there is. Pretty sure I said this, too. You have to touch the skull of the Wand to the circlet that was once removed from it. Both will go boom.

[Khedrac]

Lastly, I doubt there is any info on this, but what about the Wand's destruction? What I mean is, some artifacts' lore alludes to means by which they could be destroyed, sometimes even the ramifications of doing so, and I'm wondering if there is anything like that for the wand. I mean, I do seriously doubt it considering how it got thrown into Pandemonium rather than destroyed; but it can't hurt to ask.

Of course there is. Pretty sure I said this, too. You have to touch the skull of the Wand to the circlet that was once removed from it. Both will go boom.

Afrokuma is, of course, more correct than me, but interestingly there is another answer to the last (not that I know what Afro's answer is talking about).

In the 2nd Ed Forgotten Realms module H4 Throne of Bloodstone...

Spoiler: Module Plot

Show

The party has to destroy Orcus's wand - by plunging it into Tiamat's heart, - something she objects to for some reason.
What's more, if the party forget that is why they were just sent to her lair and just 'killed' her, they get sent back without resting to find her and her guards back to full health - which suggests she has ways of getting round being beaten in melee...
Yes - that's the minor bit at the end of the adventure after they get the Wand from Orcus (which tends to mean 'killing' him).

[Jowgen]

Yes, but
No.
That would be no.

Okay, so I take it it really is just the one ring, bar the "corrupt the hearts of men" function. Thank you greatly.

You have to touch the skull of the Wand to the circlet that was once removed from it. Both will go boom.

Interesting, did not expect there to be a thing. With the mention of the circlet, google was able to point me to the Dead Gods module for info, so i shall try to track that down. Thank you again, oh wise one.

The party has to destroy Orcus's wand - by plunging it into Tiamat's heart

That is the most nonsensical artifact destruction method I have ever heard.

[Mr Adventurer]

Isn't there a picture in a book - I want to say the ELH - of the iconic characters casting the Wand into the Tarrasque's open mouth? Or do I misremember?