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2011-08-07, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Ah, but they don't dare. Much like they'll never publish an official map of Equestria so they can add, say, a Russia equivalent for an episode when the fancy strikes them, they don't dare establish real rules for Unicorn magic because then in a later episode, when they need Twilight to do something they said Unicorn magic can't do, they're sunk.
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2011-08-07, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
How about this instead:
Wonderful stuff Esper! I haven't said much on this before, but these are really interesting.
Just one minor question though: If Luna is (one of) Midnight's mothers, why is Celestia her "gammy"? Shouldn't she be her aunt (because she's Luna's sister)? Or is that just another part of Midnight's odd family tree?
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2011-08-07, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
I don't know. Ignoring facts and forcing everything into certain thought patterns to uphold some naming schemes and paradigms they once learned and subscribed to sounds like something a real scientist would do.
Uh, forgot about those. Now Owl That Ends Well just gained a few points.
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2011-08-07, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Wow. Splendiferous work with this. I look forward to the conclusion.
I think that the reason that Twilight is so insistent on the terminology because this is a case where the magic is sufficiently analyzed to be indistinguishable from science. Despite the fact that there is no practical difference between a curse, and a personalized prank, Twilight is probably insistent on the distinction because only the latter description is useful to her. It's kinda like how there is no practical difference between using pounds (weight) and grams (mass), but there is an important distinction for scientists.
That being said, I could imagine Twilight trying to study the poison joke in order to find out just how it performs those pranks. Is it some kind of spore? Oils secreted by the leaves? Is it intended to scare away animals that would eat poison joke, and simply has this unintended effect on Ponies, or does it affect all animals like this?Last edited by Vent Reynolt; 2011-08-07 at 12:39 PM.
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2011-08-07, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
It does seem a little poorly thought out, I'll admit. But perhaps it's simply Twilight knowing that Zecora is not a unicorn and thus can't do magic. And because she doesn't know about the Poison Joke, she has no reason to believe that anything Zecora might do could result in anything curse-like. Obviously magic could do those things to the six ponies, but Zecora supposedly can't do magic. Maybe that's her reason for dismissing the "curse" idea.
She does it again in Feeling Pinkie Keen, dismissing the idea that Pinkie's sense could be magic, or similar to magic anyway. Her given reason there is pretty lame, but it would be reasonable if she assumed non-unicorns can't possibly do magic (which might be wrong too)
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2011-08-07, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-08-07, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
All we needed to know was how Twilight thought unicorn magic works (and therefor how books say it works), not how it actually works, to understand her problem with curses and non-unicorn premonitions. They could also make maps and later say that the cartographers who made them didn't know that the Russia equivalent existed, or the lord that commissioned them hates Pony Stalin, or dozens of other explanations that seven year old girls would be fine with.
Certainly is.Last edited by Kindablue; 2011-08-07 at 12:49 PM.
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2011-08-07, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Yet another wonderful excerpt.
I think I already used that vector for my Blogger account.
To be honest, in most of what is shown in the show indicates that only (visible) magic are unicorn magic. Since Twilight spends most of her life cooped up in Canterlot and possibly the library, there is really no reason for her to challenge that belief, especially since Canterlot has no oddities like Zecora or Pinkie Sense.
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2011-08-07, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Indeed, which is why I think that would be a perfectly acceptable reason for her to use when dismissing Pinkie's sense or Zecora's "curse". Instead she uses the claim that "magic has predictable effects" which is blatantly wrong, just look at Rarity's cutie mark story and how she had no apparent control of her magic or its effect.
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2011-08-07, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Again, she never heard of the story before, so she wouldn't know that. It's a reasonable assumption if we assume magic IS mostly predictable. Indeed I think ponies treat magic almost like a science. Which means predictable cause and effect.
I would say this is a case of wilful ignorance combined with lack of exposure to the wider world of Equestria. You'll be surprised how people cling to their beliefs even in the face of contrary evidence.
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2011-08-07, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
She is her aunt, and both of them realize it. But when Midnight was *a lot* younger, she referred to Celestia as her 'Gammy', and it delighted the Princess so much she kept encouraging it.
In an OOC reason, it's sort of a reference as how Celestia acts as Twilight's 'mother' figure, ergo, any child Twilight would have, she would act as her 'Grandmother' figure.
(Blame Inkwell for that. He came up with it.)
And thanks, everypony, for the compliments. I never really expected to extend this, this far when I did the first one, it started as just a small thought in my brain.
I'm trying to figure out the conclusion, but the problem is, I have three options and I'm not sure which one I actually want to select.
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2011-08-07, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
If economists were capable of emotions I might be offended.
But to quote Max planck: “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”. You should note that he was a physicist.
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2011-08-07, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
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2011-08-07, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Last edited by Grif; 2011-08-07 at 01:25 PM.
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2011-08-07, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Last edited by Deadly; 2011-08-07 at 01:27 PM.
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2011-08-07, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
I think if we tried to explain quantum mechanics to Blaise Pascal, with some examples, he would ultimately accept it. But I doubt he would be very good at furthering the scientific frontier. The new generation's familiarity not only implies acceptance, but also having the new theory studied from youth, knowing it well enough to actually be able to improve it.
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2011-08-07, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
As you well know, unicorn magic is tied strongly to its user's mental state. Obviously, young Rarity's desire to make those costumes shine, combined with her desire to find just the right inspiration to do so, created in her mind, the perfect conditions to unknowingly cast that gem finding spell. We can extrapolate then, that this is a spell that is powered by desire; a desire, peppered with a certain degree of charity. Young Rarity couldn't control the spell yet because she, and in fact nearly all fillies her age, would have had difficulty in exerting the degree of control over their emotions required to use magic.
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2011-08-07, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Last edited by Kindablue; 2011-08-07 at 01:38 PM.
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2011-08-07, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Ah, but let me quote:
"Magic is something you study and practice, it only happens when you decide to do it, and it's meant to make something specific that you choose to happen, happen. With you it... makes no sense at all!" - Twilight Sparkle, Episode 15
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2011-08-07, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-08-07, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Alright, sure, I certainly don't mind having a few extra ears on my ideas! Here's my three options that I'm thinking for the conclusion, I could use the advice on which one seems the best to conclude the story. I'll put it under spoilers, so people who don't want to see, don't click on it:
A Midnight Nightmare Ending Options:
SpoilerSpecifically, it concerns the status of Nightmare's existence. I've come up with three different options:
a) For Midnight to be able to survive, the two must become one, and Nightmare volunteers to essentially be 'absorbed' into Midnight's soul. It's basically a sacrifice by Nightmare, for Midnight to insure her survival, and Nightmare pays it gladly out of her motherly love for Midnight. It could probably be the most poignant ending, but also the saddest. it also has a sense of reattaining the 'status-quo', which could be both good and bad. It also would go to show just how much Nightmare truly loves Midnight. This could be considered the "Nightmare as Midnight's Mother" ending.
b) The two are separated into individual beings, Midnight and Nightmare, with Nightmare essentially becoming Midnight's new sister. If this were a month ago, this actually would likely be the option that I personally would select. It would allow for a new 'toy' to play with, essentially, with the easiest, least strange method of doing so. If you've been paying attention to the fandom at all, however, you know the problem with this ending, especially if I release it past this forum. Derivative. This could be considered the 'Nightmare as Midnight's Sister' ending.
c) The two are not able to be separated, and one does not have to sacrifice themselves for the other to exist. Which means that, essentially, Midnight and Nightmare would co-exist in the same body. This is easily the strangest ending, but on the other hand, the mental interplay between the two have been the strongest aspect of these 'Excerpts', and it could be fun to play with that further down the line. It also emphasizes the point that Nightmare and Midnight really *are* a lot alike, and the fact that they shared all the same experiences. The problem, of course, is that it certainly could be considered weird. Right now, I actually kind of rather like this ending, because I'm weird. This could be considered the 'Nightmare and Midnight Together' ending. (AKA: They become truly 'Midnight Mare')
Of course, if anypony has any different ides on how it should go, please, feel free to suggest it, I'm all ears.Last edited by EsperDerek; 2011-08-07 at 01:48 PM.
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2011-08-07, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Here I go.
SpoilerOf the three, I'll say (a) is probably the most conventional and safest way to go about concluding this story. It'll probably be received well, though the poignant ending made me sad.
(b) will obviously bring screams of NYX! clones and whatnot from Past Sins rabid fans. I think you won't be able to live down the outrage.
Now, (c) intrigues me, primarily because of the sheer hilarity the interplay the two could potentially have. I personally favour this, because of the novel concept and the fact that split personalities are always interesting to write about. (My RP character has actually the same condition. Ironic. )
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2011-08-07, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
I'm going to go with
SpoilerOption A honestly.
Like Grif said, B does seem like what little I know of Nyx (who gave you conniptions as I recall ) and as for C... Well, I think we've already got at least 3 pony thread RP characters that communicate with artificial beings.Thanks to Dirty Tabs for the Travis pony.
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Breakdown Twilight from Pony Halloween celebration, thanks to Thanqol.
Thanks to Akrim.Elf for the awesome Laharl pony.
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2011-08-07, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Spoilera) Not much to say here, only that this ending certainly can work, although you're right in saying that it rings heavily of "Status quo is god".
b) Yeah, the timing of Past Sins absolutely ruins this. I would not advise this ending.
c) Would this mean that either of them can control their body at any time, or that Nightmare is just chilling inside Midnight's head? It could also be a combination of both, with Nightmare taking a usually dormant, internal role, perhaps only interacting with her body to speak and interact with other ponies directly. This does bring up another problem; what happens when they disagree? Can one of them override the other? How does that affect their relationship?
You know what? As I'm typing this, I'm liking C more and more. Yes, it would be weird. But their relationship is really what I like best about these excerpts, and it's worth exploring more.I'm developing a game. Let's see what happens! Complex.
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2011-08-07, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Avatar by Mr Saturn.
Formerly Seft Sirag, now an an unusual desert.
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2011-08-07, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
SpoilerTo be fair Nightmare-as-seperate-from-Luna is not a new concept, even taking Nyx into account. (One other extremely good fic that did it a totally different way is Lingering Darkness, where Nightmare (or Noctis as it called itself) was a sort of malevolent parasite.)
So then, a suggestion: perhaps a Nyx-avoiding compromise would be to have Nightmare be released, but into a non-pony form of some type, if that is what you'd really rather happen in your heart of hearts. Just a thought.
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2011-08-07, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
It's important to remember that using magic is sort of like flexing a muscle. Although in this case, it's more of a mental muscle. Young fillies often don't even realize that they are using magic until they actually start using it, and even when they do know, they usually have no idea how to control it. Just like learning to take your first steps, you are physically capable, but that doesn't mean that you know how to put one hoof in front of the other.
So when I said that magic only happens when you decide it does, I was referring solely to fully-grown unicorns who should have no trouble controlling when they do magic.
That time... Well, I panicked alright. I really wanted to escape, and my mind wandered to the safest place that I could think of, so I accidentally used the teleportation spell to get there. You see, I knew that I was using some sort of spell, but my frantic thoughts of escape made me forget that those thoughts of being someplace else were exactly the requirements to cast that spell.
Like I said, I was talking only about fully grown unicorns having control over their magic. As for the spell I accidentally used; I have no idea. None of my books ever mentioned anything like it, and the Princess told me that it was because I was so nervous and scared, I started using all sorts of spells.
Does this work, because I'm not sure that I am writing Twilight very well.
Edit: @Esper: Darn it. I want to see the options, but I don't want to spoil the ending. I can't comment on options I haven't seen, so I'll instead say that whatever you choose, I'm sure that it'll turn out well.Last edited by Vent Reynolt; 2011-08-07 at 02:25 PM.
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2011-08-07, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
Ah but that's Twilight. I don't think of her as a scientist. She's a scholar of, among other things, the sciences. It's very different; she reads about what scientists do, she performs clumsy experiments with no thought to control groups or specific hypotheses. She just hooked up Pinkie and got data, with no specific ideas of what she was looking for. She reads it in books and accepts it as gospel; the scientist who studied curses is likely much more open to correction if there turns out to be a real curse.
This is not to disrespect Twilight. She's very good at what she does, which is the practical application of magic and general scholarship. She's very knowledgeable. If I want to know what the melting point of Boron is, Twilight's the one to talk to. However, generating ORIGINAL scholarship isn't her strong point (maybe that's why Celestia has given her the friendship mission; it's something that gets her some friends and social experience AND she can't just find all the answers in a book. She has to reach her own conclusions, not just parrot authorities.)
She just isn't a scientist, much like it's no insult to say that Einstein wasn't a Latin scholar or Bill Gates isn't a philosopher. Their skills and expertise just lie in different areas.Last edited by darthbobcat; 2011-08-07 at 02:38 PM.
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2011-08-07, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
I think she's trying too hard now, but maybe that IS in line with Twilight's character
I think the statement as it was made by Twilight in the episode is clearly wrong. Probably a mistake on the writers' part, but it makes the problems with the rest of the episode worse.
Anyway, all I'm saying is, Twilight would have had a much better argument if she simply said she didn't believe in Pinkie's sense because Pinkie is not a unicorn and thus can't have magic. And the same for curses, Zecora couldn't do anything curse-like because Zecora is not a unicorn. Any claims of curses done by non-unicorns must be nothing but pony tales. Makes sense.
She might end up being proven wrong and that would be great (non-unicorn magic, what a revolutionary discovery that would be, she'd become instantly famous!), but it would be perfectly reasonable given her knowledge (and ours) at the time.Last edited by Deadly; 2011-08-07 at 02:38 PM.
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2011-08-07, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony XIX: I Emptied Your Thread
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