Results 451 to 480 of 764
-
2013-04-09, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
well i cant say about early on, but the last page or so has been people replying to Rich himself explaining how they feel and why they look at the subject. I haven't seen any indication of people saying that he should do anything. The closest is giving examples of how he could have. In a hypothetical example.
------------
And i think most people are basically saying something similar to what i said. Its not about being represented and doing the slightest bit of anything like what you said.
Its just that alot of us want to see stories where its not some strange world where we dont exist.
There isnt a direct equivalent, but you might say it would be like if you had a story where everyone was white. Sure maybe it takes place in a part of the world where everyone IS white. But it would make sense to occasionally see a non-white tourist or someone from a tv show that originates in another country. Other wise its this strange world that is like earth but where black people and latin people dont exist (for example).
The inverse is also true. I liked Boy Meets Boy, but sometimes i got the feeling that it was taking place in some strange alternate universe where everyone is either gay, bi, or bi curious and straight people where these enigmas that are either homophobic psychos or super squishy Kawaii girls (or bi or bi curious) .
Again, I dont think anyone is telling Rich to do or change anything. I think they are just explaining how one could do things differently.Part of the "Raise Nale and Let Him Serve Life in Prison" fan-club
"The only reason why people didn't like Durkon before was because he is the only member of the group that doesn't commit evil, like hurting others, or breaking the rules for giggles. I.E.' He's not cool'"
-
2013-04-09, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I was not actually sure if the intention was merely playing with the whole running gag of V being so ambiguous, but my personal take on it is that they are indeed a same gender marriage. Of course, I am projecting here, and I respect you wanting V's gender to be a mistery. Clearly in this case if I am able to get to that conclussion, is because you wanted to leave that possibility open, for what I am thankful.
My point here was, even if you are a straight male, you do not need to worry about your ability to portray an acceptable gay character or relationship, because for me, you already did. That is, of course, my view, and I am not implying that V or Inkyrius are one gender or the other.Last edited by Leirus; 2013-04-09 at 09:59 AM.
-
2013-04-09, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- In the Mountains
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Far from what I say. I say you do not have to force every possible diversity into an fictitious work, this isn't denying diversity in D&D or saying everyone in any story must be "male, white, and straight".
I also know it wasn't stated explicitly by anyone, but I pondered "Where does this massive interest come from?" Especially as it started to go beyond "Where are the strong female leaders?" or "Females are underrepresented!"
And I think has something to do with what I wrote. Sure, people are always interested in all topics related to sexuality, but when I read this thread I had the impression it went a bit beyond it (no, I am not judging in any way). To that I replied as someone asked about "if it was that important".
Yes, I know this wasn't about people telling Rich stuff, but I think it was about the metalayer, about what stands behind this discussion. You cannot complain I missed what you said above as I was not talking about it, but if you want you can tell me it all isn't about what I just said (it's only complete in connection with the post you quoted).I feel naked. You all know my stats!
-
2013-04-09, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- Around
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say. :/
Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
-
2013-04-09, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Gender
-
2013-04-09, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Location
- France
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
There are flat-chested women, actually, if it's the graphic representation that bothers you.
Or Inkyrius could be a transexual man or woman, or intersex, which all could justify a small chest.
Therefore, your theory that V and Inkyrius are both gay (non-trans) men is not wrong, but it's not the only acceptable one, either.
So... back to square one?Originally Posted by on Dwarf Fortress succession gamesOriginally Posted by Dwarf Fortress 0.40.01 bugs
-
2013-04-09, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- Location
- Forest Grove, Oregon
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
What?
Are you saying Vaarsuvius must have been planned as male to begin with, because the group already had a token female? And also that Inkyruius has to be male -- based on character design -- so they must be a gay couple?
Because that isn't what I took out of that. It's not clear what gender V is, or what gender V's spouse is, and the idea that they MAY be gay is raised by them having adopted children, although by no means is it certain. And I have no idea what gender the Giant may have had in mind for V originally.
-
2013-04-09, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Prince Fraternal of Pudding, Snuzzlepal, Feezy Squeez Lover, MP, Member of The Most Noble And Ancient Order Of St. George, King of Gae Parabolae.
Lego Ergo Sum
"Everyone's cute if you just look at them the right way"~Rebekah Patton Durham, Princess of Pudding.
"If they have stats, we can kill them... I'd like to point out that we also have stats..." ~ PhoenixGuard09.
Warhammer 40K: Where the faction that is a cross between the Inquisition and Space Nazis are the good guys.
-
2013-04-09, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- Around
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
-
2013-04-09, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Now I'm disappointed.
I really thought you had thought of the possibility that V could be a heterosexual woman who has more important things to do than breed, and that Inky is a heterosexual man who really wants to have children.
Or, of course, that V is in fact ambigiously-sexed, not only ambigiously-gendered, and elves of the ambigious sex are unable to father OR mother children. That would only make their relationship heterosexual if Inky is definitely male. (Or female, although he does look very male to me ...for a stick figure, that is)
@B. Dandelion: I would love to think that V was meant to be female, but I see no hint in the early comic strips that the Giant was more aware of the "male as default" problem than other authors, and therefore I fear that V was probably meant to be male. If I remember correctly, the scene in Haley's room took place after the Giant had already become aware of V's ambiguity.
I do prefer the idea that V is female, but I don't think it likely it was planned like that from the start.
If the Giant told us she's female, I wouldn't object, but it has been clearly stated that we'll never know.Last edited by Themrys; 2013-04-09 at 11:19 AM.
-
2013-04-09, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
...
Rich himself just spelled out another reason on the previous page of the thread...
And again, IMPHO, cultural inertia is not a totally invalid reason either. Cultural products (I don't disagree at all with the way Shadowknight defined "art" a few pages ago, so for the purpose of this discussion I'll be considering that an author who lives off his/her work is "a creator of cultural products", not "an artist") don't exist in a vacuum, and the unfortunately-largely-culturally-inert audience (you know, the ones paying your bills in the end) is something that you kinda sorta have to consider.
If you want an honest answer, it would be the exact same excellent story as it is now, except that instead of featuring a bunch of PCs that's instantly recognizable to the average reader as the purely archetypal D&D adventuring group, it would have been featuring a clearly significantly nonstandard PC mix as the protagonists.Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
-
2013-04-09, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Prince Fraternal of Pudding, Snuzzlepal, Feezy Squeez Lover, MP, Member of The Most Noble And Ancient Order Of St. George, King of Gae Parabolae.
Lego Ergo Sum
"Everyone's cute if you just look at them the right way"~Rebekah Patton Durham, Princess of Pudding.
"If they have stats, we can kill them... I'd like to point out that we also have stats..." ~ PhoenixGuard09.
Warhammer 40K: Where the faction that is a cross between the Inquisition and Space Nazis are the good guys.
-
2013-04-09, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
The reason I'm able to say the genetical difference is "huge" between a modern human an a housecat and and "small" between a modern human and his direct caveman ancestor is simply that 1) I have the actual rough numbers in my head + 2) I did not think a biochemist would actually attempt to challenge that statement. I'm currently a bit late and will have to go, but I'll get back to you eventually on that.
I have to say you're definitely impressing me with both your perseverance and mastery of the English language... (overall, not merely this one post.)Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
-
2013-04-09, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- Around
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
A reason which, in the end, only exists because people get it into their head that, say, gay characters need to be written 'differently', when no such difference exists.
Also, CAN WE PLEASE DROP THE IRRELEVANT HUMAN BIOLOGY DISCUSSION? It's not even tying into media in general, let alone this comic, so can't you please use PM's as is constantly offered?Last edited by Raineh Daze; 2013-04-09 at 11:43 AM.
Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
-
2013-04-09, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
*smacks forehead* That should be Sex and Sorcery, not Sorceror and Sword. I think I may have misquoted some of the rules, but I find the premise intriguing regardless.
So, anyways. My basic point here is that there are ways of playing an RPG, or enjoying fantasy/SF/horror etc., that explicitly rely on exploring the powers and responsibilities associated with biological sex. And automatically dismissing this as heteronormative propaganda is going to throw out a good deal of baby with the bathwater.
I'm not sure how relevant any of this is to the OOTS storyline, specifically- it's been touched on slightly with the belt-of-gender-changing and Kazumi's pregnancy, I guess. But both events made the explicit point that, in D&D, sex differences are purely cosmetic, so clearly it's not falling into the category I mentioned above. And yeah, I guess, on that basis, you could argue that women should be, statistically, represented a little more frequently in the strip.
One thing I have noticed is, while there are several significantly powerful women characters in the strip, they're all described as being of well-above-average physical attractiveness (with the possible exception of Therkla.) I wouldn't say they're particularly sexualised, but it does seem to be a trend.
-
2013-04-09, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
now thats what i'm talking about. There shouldn't be any notion that wanting to or thinking there should be non-norm demographics in a story is deliberately putting them in.
You dont force brown people into a story, because there are brown people everywhere(unless they are far away), you dont force women into leadership positions in your story because unless your story has some cultural reason for there not to be they should be in leadership positions anyways. And you dont force gay people into a story because they where always there. And what i was saying with the "white person" metaphor is the fact that when certain demographics that should be occasionally apparent are noticeably absent it seems very odd. Like (like my example), how a world where people who naturally have dark skin dont exist would be weird. Especially in a fantasy world where entire continents of people are forced to be in the sun constantly and thus develop dark skin as a basis.
So yes, assuming you are saying that certain demographics shouldn't be forced into a story....I agree. Because baring some logical reason such as the world being different enough to not include a demographic (which is perfectly acceptable) then some things being non existent is weird.
This whole thing is really no different than people wanting people to write more realistically, with heroes with real flaws that act like normal people and go to the bathroom. And people notice when there are no toilets, when there are no children, when there is no rain except when a character is sad, when there is no dark skinned people in an ancient culture, no gay people when 1 in 5 people can be, when everyone only changes shirts every 2 years.Part of the "Raise Nale and Let Him Serve Life in Prison" fan-club
"The only reason why people didn't like Durkon before was because he is the only member of the group that doesn't commit evil, like hurting others, or breaking the rules for giggles. I.E.' He's not cool'"
-
2013-04-09, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2003
- Location
- Philadelphia, PA
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Two events that have likely shaped my history on this issue:
1.) At one point in the past, I did a very short-lived comic for Wizards of the Coast called "Five Foot Steps." Unlike OOTS, it took place in the real world, among a group of D&D players. The cast consisted of two white men, two white females, a black man, and a brown-skinned man with non-specified ethnicity (who happened to also be in a wheelchair). Almost the exact same breakdown as the Order, if you happen to read V as female. Only one character, one of the white men, had any portion of their sexuality discussed during the comic's five-page run (and he was straight).
The reaction, universally, was that the cast was ham-handedly diverse; that obviously, Wizards had forced me to include people of color and the differently-abled because they were a huge corporation and had to be politically correct. This was not true—they gave me no input whatsoever on the content of the strip. But the very existence of a group of D&D players with three races in it was enough to confuse people.
That made me angry and annoyed, and I resolved to bring even greater racial balance to OOTS from that point on, just to prove the point. Unfortunately, I didn't have such a learning experience with LGBT inclusion. In fact, I had almost the opposite...
2.) Back when Roy put on the belt of gender-swapping, I went to a convention. At that convention, I met a man who told me that he had enjoyed the comic up until recently. I asked him what had changed. He told me that he, himself, was transgendered, and he found the inclusion of the "cursed" magic item offensive, that the idea of gender-swapping should not be used for comedy, and that it had permanently reduced his opinion of the comic.
I was shocked, because it had never occurred to me that anyone would see it as any sort of allegory for real-world transsexuals. It was an overtly magical situation, based on a magic item that already existed in the source material, that was forced on a character with no inclination toward it. In the same way that I would not have expected that one of the characters being paralyzed by a ghoul would be offensive to people who are quadriplegic. But maybe it is. At any rate, the situation surprised me and has, most likely, contributed to my gunshy nature about LGBT issues in the comic.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
-
2013-04-09, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Then the artist would be opening themselves up to criticism (including, quite possibly, self-criticism), the way any artist who compromises their principles for monetary gain opens themselves up to criticism. I don't see why "I did it for the money" should grant an artist immunity.
There's a tumblr called Clients from Hell, where designers who are doing work for hire complain anonymously about their clients' unreasonable demands. A frequent demand is "Those stock photos are too..um...ethnic. Do you have anything that wouldn't upset people in Iowa?" Sometimes the designers still do the job, because they need the money, but to their credit they complain bitterly about it. If, as you say, a writer feels pressured to leave "ethnic" people out of their work...okay, maybe they need the money, but I would expect them to complain about it, and work in small ways to change it. Otherwise they're legitimate targets for criticism.Last edited by jere7my; 2013-04-09 at 11:59 AM.
-
2013-04-09, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Gender
-
2013-04-09, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Gender
-
2013-04-09, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- Around
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
-
2013-04-09, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2003
- Location
- Philadelphia, PA
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
This is not universally held to be true among various under-represented groups, though. I have literally had conversations where friends belonging to such a group have said to me, "I wish they didn't write [under-represented group member] to act just like a [over-represented group member]." It wasn't about OOTS, but the sentiment still exists. Nobody is shy about telling the straight white guy that he will never, ever understand their point of view, no matter how hard he tries.
In other words, whether or not such a difference actually exists, it is faulty to assume that everyone agrees on whether or not a difference exists—and that all the people who think that there is a fundamental difference are on the same side of the larger argument.
EDIT:
Unfortunately, this sentiment is a straight line back to non-inclusion. It's too easy for an author to say, "Someone is always going to get offended, so no need to include black/gay/disabled people!" I think trying to not offend people is a worthwhile goal. Unless they get offended by less-than-optimum D&D tactics, in which case to hell with them.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
-
2013-04-09, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Denver
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
That makes sense. The one thing I wonder about is female characters. Not meaning to put you on the spot or anything, but is it easier to get into the head of a female character as opposed to a LGBT one? Or do you already find it more taxing to write Haley as opposed to, say Roy, and the extra weight of a gay character would just compound that? Or some other explanation I didn't think of? No pressure to respond, of course.
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
-
2013-04-09, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- Around
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
That's... odd.
Unfortunately, this sentiment is a straight line back to non-inclusion. It's too easy for an author to say, "Someone is always going to get offended, so no need to include black/gay/disabled people!" I think trying to not offend people is a worthwhile goal. Unless they get offended by less-than-optimum D&D tactics, in which case to hell with them.
Honestly, the best anyone can do is to write something that's as unoffensive as they can get without sacrificing the story, and hope for the best. Overthinking the significance of everything pleases nobody: people find something to take offence at, creators don't write anything... (somehow, this even manages to come up in forum roleplays )Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
-
2013-04-09, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Hmm, there is a bit of dispute whether or not stuff like drag and such is offensive to trans* people. I personally don't think so because gender expression and gender play, no matter how lighthearted it is is something personal.
However, there's a few reasons for those iffy feelings. Society tends to confuse crossdressing and similar things with transgender folk, which often leads to dismissal of trangender people's identities and such. And there's often a bit of a risk of misogyny and transphobia coming from drag queens themselves. (Not all of them of course.) (I'm not that familiar with drag kings, so I'm not sure if it's true there as well.)
So it's a bit of a mixed thing I guess. Iunno, you can see it from both sides. You could also argue that Roy's desire to undo the effects of the Belt is sympathetic to people who feel bodily dysphoria.
-
2013-04-09, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Probably this person was not familiar with the source material and had suffered bigoted jokes like the ones Belkar makes Roy, so he could not see those strips under any one other light than that. I think the blame of that is not on you, but on the persons who made him feel like that in the first place.
Then again the transsexual colective has had it pretty rough, and most of the society is unable to really understand them, gays and lesbians included. So maybe I am being unsensitive here?
Mhm. I see how could this be troublesome for an author.
-
2013-04-09, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2003
- Location
- Philadelphia, PA
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
The truth is, I thought I had included female characters. Not in the initial group of six—I totally cop to having Smurfetted that one, even if V reads as female to you—but in the time since. I never crunched the numbers. I was under the impression—literally until this thread—that I had done a good job including female characters.
Plus, what I knew was that the first significant major character that I introduced after the first 50 strips was Miko—a major, complex character who had a lot of energy devoted to her and was the first non-OOTS member to be featured on the cover of one of the books. And the reaction was that she was universally despised and people actively wished for her death.
Then, when I had an opportunity, I decided to give one of my existing minor female characters more spotlight time. When Roy was dead, Celia came in to provide another female voice and prove that Haley wasn't speaking for all women. And the reaction was that she became universally despised and people actively wished for her death.
So, yeah. It's not unreasonable for me to have concluded at that point that I was not cut out to write female characters beyond the most cursory surface treatment, other than Haley herself. And as we've seen on this thread, my portrayal of her has still gotten crap.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
-
2013-04-09, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
It's a bit of a fine line to thread, because you don't want to risk tokenizing, but you also don't want to completely negate your character's identity.
I think it's an argument for more diversity on a bigger scale though, because the more for example queer characters there are, the more canvas you have as it were to explore different angles, to explore characters for whom their struggles is a big part of their story contribution but also characters for whom it is a minor detail, and lack of diversity in media in general can lead to a bit of an overstretchedness by trying to represent all those different angles with only a few characters.
-----
Re; above. I think it's because minority characters tend to stick out more? Like, a character being straight for example tends to be seen as default so we don't attach as much mental space to that as a character being queer. Same with male vs. female characters.
(Also a small note; I'm using queer as a (reclaimed) catch all for LGBTQ+ most of the time, but I'm aware that it can be a hurtful word for some, so I don't mind dropping it if it's hurting someone in this thread.)Last edited by Astrella; 2013-04-09 at 12:36 PM.
-
2013-04-09, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- Around
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
It's not as if your male characters don't become universally despised and have people actively wishing for their deaths. It's really a hit-and-miss thing. Just kind of unfortunate that you made both the lawful-to-the-point-of-insanity paladin and pacifist-in-totally-the-wrong-setting female.
I don't think people have taken issue with your portrayal of Haley, per se, more whether she can be counted as leading the OotS (and... well, there's more to that then gender). Only reason it got so much attention is the lack of other female leaders to actually... well, talk about, beyond a hormonal teenaged sorcerer.
Note: In case anyone thinks I'm being hypocritical, I never took issue with Haley's leadership ability, just whether she was actually leading the group. And I have no desire to reignite that discussion.Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
-
2013-04-09, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Brazil
- Gender