True mind Switching a Terrasque

[Dairuga]

Here is a bit of a trouble-inducing question for you all, o knowledgeable souls of the playground! I have run into a bit of a problem, and I am looking to you for assistance.

Okay, so, imagine an epic scenario. People are going to ascend, become gods, etc, etc. Epic levels, growing powerful beyond belief, etc.

So, why would anyone want to ascend and become some lowly quasi-god in an arbitrary, faraway plane, when you can become a near-god-on-earth like being? That's right. Said character wants to become a Terrasque. Imagine finding such an enormous beast, knock it out (Hence causing it to fail its will save against the True Mind switch), cast alter self (perhaps with some DM allowed Manifest Psionic Alter self) to remain looking like a human for as long as you like, with all the EX-skills of a terrasque. For alternative fun, you can possibly coat your old body in quintessence, and swallow it whole. (or again, with DM's permission, a Spell-to-power Erudite that could cast Hoard gullet with Permanency and store it there)

So, the problem. 48 HD.

True mind switch can only be used on creatures with the same or lower HD as you have manifester levels... But getting all the way up to level 48 would be a rather... ardeous task, even by epic standards.

So the question is, what ways can be used to circumvent this? Are there any helpful ways that could temporarily increase your manifester level to a large enough degree that you could feasibly True Mind Switch a Terrasque at around level 30ish? Given that the duration is instantaneous, it would not be a problem if the ML drops down after the switch is complete, as long as it is as high as required during casting.

Assume that all books are available.

[Godskook]

What do we have to work with? Cause, for instance, Wilder 28 can wildsurge for +8 ML, closing the gap significantly.

[Elric VIII]

You can get this with the use of Mind Mage (Dr313), Cerebremancer, a Soul Manifester.


Alright, here goes:

Spoiler

Show

Human
1 Sorcerer 1: Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell
2Psion 1: Overchannel
3Psion 2: [Psi-Spell feat 1]
4Psion 3: -
5Cerebremancer 1: -
6Cerebremancer 2: [Psi-Spell feat 2]
7Cerebremancer 3: -
8Mind Mage 1: -
9Mind Mage 2: Practiced Manifester
10Mind Mage 3: -
11Mind Mage 4: -
12Mind Mage 5: Shape Soulmeld
13Mind Mage 6: -
14Mind Mage 7: -
15Mind Mage 8: Open Least Chakra
16Mind Mage 9: -
17Mind Mage 10: -
18Incarnate 1: Azure Talent
19Soul Manifester 1: -
20Soul Manifester 2: -
21Soul Manifester 3: [Free slot]
22Soul Manifester 4: -
23Soul Manifester 5: -
24Soul Manifester 6: [Free slot]
25Soul Manifester 7: -
26Soul Manifester 8: -
27Soul Manifester 9: [Free slot]
28Soul Manifester 10: -
29Cerebremancer 4: -
30Cerebremancer 5: [Free slot]

So, Mind Mage is 8/10 manifesting/spellcasting, Cerebremancer is 10/10 manifesting/spellcasting, and Soul Manifester is 10/10 manifesting/meldshaping. With the 1 level in Sorcerer and Incarnate, that brings you up to 26/30 manifesting (11/30 meldshaping and 14/30 spellcasting); Practiced Manifester brings that up to 30/30 ML.

Mind Mage has the special ability that it adds its entire level to manifesting 1/day (that is in addition to the ML boost from the +1 level of psionic class). That adds 10 to your ML, bringing you up to 40.

Soul Manifester lets you invest 2 essentia into a power to increase the ML and DC by 2.

Overchannel adds +3 ML.

So that's 45 there without items.


EDIT:
Now, having typed all that up... There is an epic feat in Complete Psionic called Improved Overchannel. It lets you add up to double your ML to a given power, but you take 2d8 damage for each increase. Just Reality Revision for a Delay Death and go nuts. It'll only be 36d8 on a Psion 30.


Alternatively, a STP Erudite using the Consumptive Field trick can get it up there.


Also, I think there might be a Taint-based psionic class in the Mind's Eye, and we all know how balanced that system is.

[KicktheCAN]

Taking a Bloodline from Unearthed Arcana will increase your Manifester Level by 3 for a minimal experience cost.

[Demonic_Spoon]

There's also the Overchannel feat orange ioun stone. Or cast mental pinnacle and use a power stone of true mind switch or whatever.

[ahenobarbi]

Be a cleric 25, boost your CL (Divine spell power +6, Ioun stone +1, prayer beads +4, consumptive field +12 = +23CL), cast miracle, pay 5000XP.

[the_david]

Seriously, do you have any idea what it costs to feed a Tarrasque? It eats a country per day!

[lord_khaine]

Be a cleric 25, boost your CL (Divine spell power +6, Ioun stone +1, prayer beads +4, consumptive field +12 = +23CL), cast miracle, pay 5000XP.

Unfortunately, a Miracle cant create a True Mind Swich.

[hushblade]

Seriously, do you have any idea what it costs to feed a Tarrasque? It eats a country per day!

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroesFeast.htm
Enough for 12 creatures 1 creature per level, the tarrasque is a creature. Pay a cleric to cast that daily.

[ahenobarbi]

Seriously, do you have any idea what it costs to feed a Tarrasque? It eats a country per day!

Ring of sustenance? Semi-elemental plane of tasty burgers

Unfortunately, a Miracle cant create a True Mind Swich.

Why?

A miracle can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.

(...)
If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.
Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved.

[KillianHawkeye]

Imagine finding such an enormous beast, knock it out (Hence causing it to fail its will save against the True Mind switch)

Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.

[Elric VIII]

Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.

But in D&D unconscious = willing. I live my life by that rule.

[ahenobarbi]

Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.

SR is not a problem... you need ML 48 for this to work, so you can not fail check. On this levels your primary casting stat will be easily
15 (start) + 5 (leveling) + 5 (inherent) + 6 (enchantment from item) = 31
so DC is at least 10 + 10 + 9 = 29. Not too good (you are targeting +20 will save) but you can lower that by debuffing it first.

[KillianHawkeye]

But in D&D unconscious = willing. I live my life by that rule.

That doesn't mean what you think it means.

Some spells specify that they only work on willing targets (e.g. teleport). That doesn't mean that an unconscious target automatically fails all saving throws.

[Wavelab]

I fear your plan is flawed in multiple ways. Allow me to point out a few:

1. The tarrasque has the tendency to sleep for a very long time, wake up, eat then go to bed again. So only do it if the player doesn't mind waiting a thousand years to play. And before you question this see point 2.

2. The primordials have complete control over the tarrasque and if you take over its body, you will either be controlled or you will piss off four really big guys.

3. I'm sure you are aware how many people want to kill the tarrasque and as soon as some powerful wizard founds out about you some fighting is gonna go down.

4. Technically most(if not all) of its abilities should cease to function if you use alter self since things like the deflective carapace and the ability to swallow whole is tied directly to it's physical properties.

5. Being a lowly quasi god is much cooler.

Send my greetings to the tarrasque.

[deuxhero]

Perhaps you could give it some negative levels (and find how to make them permanent) to get rid of some of its HD (but not its EX abilities)?

[Shadowleaf]

I fear your plan is flawed in multiple ways. Allow me to point out a few:

1. The tarrasque has the tendency to sleep for a very long time, wake up, eat then go to bed again. So only do it if the player doesn't mind waiting a thousand years to play. And before you question this see point 2.

2. The primordials have complete control over the tarrasque and if you take over its body, you will either be controlled or you will piss off four really big guys.

3. I'm sure you are aware how many people want to kill the tarrasque and as soon as some powerful wizard founds out about you some fighting is gonna go down.

4. Technically most(if not all) of its abilities should cease to function if you use alter self since things like the deflective carapace and the ability to swallow whole is tied directly to it's physical properties.

5. Being a lowly quasi god is much cooler.

Send my greetings to the tarrasque.

Nothing a Ring of Sustenance and a good Bluff check can't take care of. I'm fairly certain you don't lose your Ex abilities when you Alter Self.

[Wavelab]

Nothing a Ring of Sustenance and a good Bluff check can't take care of. I'm fairly certain you don't lose your Ex abilities when you Alter Self.

Hmm that is true. And no you don't lose them but logically you are supposed to and a DM might rule that way.

[Shadowleaf]

Hmm that is true. And no you don't lose them but logically you are supposed to and a DM might rule that way.

You could take an RP-ish approach and argue that you have "assimilated" the Tarrasque and therefore have figured out how to improve your Human form (with natural plating, boosted blood coagulation and an extra stomach sack for swallowing whole).

[Alleran]

1. The tarrasque has the tendency to sleep for a very long time, wake up, eat then go to bed again. So only do it if the player doesn't mind waiting a thousand years to play. And before you question this see point 2.

2. The primordials have complete control over the tarrasque and if you take over its body, you will either be controlled or you will piss off four really big guys.

I think primordials controlling the tarrasque might be 4E-FR specific. With regards to your first point, if you're in a tarrasque body, I don't see why you couldn't just avoid going into hibernation with a Ring of Sustenance (if you even need that).

[Thiramon]

*snip*

EDIT:
Now, having typed all that up... There is an epic feat in Complete Psionic called Improved Overchannel. It lets you add up to double your ML to a given power, but you take 2d8 damage for each increase. Just Reality Revision for a Delay Death and go nuts. It'll only be 36d8 on a Psion 30.

Why do you cause yourself so much trouble? ;)

Use Timeless body in the first round, then Improved Overchannel with your True Mind Switch. Damage? What Damage? ^^

Regards,

Thiramon

[Eldan]

Isn't there anything better than a Tarrasque to take over if you can reach ML 48? Some epic creature or something?

[Psyren]

Why?

Miracle can do just about anything in theory - with deific (read:DM) approval. But if your DM is going to allow that he may as well let you research your own version of TMS with no HD restriction.

[Steward]

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

It shouldn't be a problem though as long as you don't use alter self while you are the tarrasque.

[ahenobarbi]

Miracle can do just about anything in theory - with deific (read:DM) approval. But if your DM is going to allow that he may as well let you research your own version of TMS with no HD restriction.

So you can use miracle to do this,but DM may ban it.That's not "you can't do it".

[Psyren]

So you can use miracle to do this,but DM may ban it.That's not "you can't do it".

You can't. Your deity does all the work, and the DM controls him, not you. All Miracle lets you do is ask.

You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

If your deity does not grant your request, Miracle does nothing, by RAW. It is not Wish.

[Godskook]

Why?

Miracle has guidelines that govern its usage. It doesn't do "whatever". Guideline A can be accurately summarized as "no more powerful than an 8th level cleric spell". And True Mind Switch, being a 9th level psionic power, does not qualify. Guideline B is *INCREDIBLY* hard to adjudicate, but one thing's *definitely* for sure: there's no guarantee that the spell will actually do it(same with wish). I know some DMs simply ban Guideline B for simplicity's sake(tournaments especially).

[ahenobarbi]

(I see this as TO, so I don't worry about DM. Besides if DM doesn't want you to get big T's body [s]he has many more legit ways than "miracle doesn't work")

Well gods grants you every single cleric power, so you could argue "no, cleric can't do anything at all, diety (controlled by DM) does it".

Besides you can choose diety that will allow this. You can worship concept that is very much in line with that action.

And is about as powerful as examples given in Miracle description for XP-paying version.

[Wavelab]

Isn't there anything better than a Tarrasque to take over if you can reach ML 48? Some epic creature or something?

Agreed. I mean just look at this

If I recall correctly that is the highest CR creature in the ELH and the one that is capable of dealing the most damage. The only problem is you'll look like a freak but hey you wanted to look like a tarrasque.

[tyckspoon]

Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.

Really simple solution:

Dominate it first, order it to not resist the next power you manifest on it, Mind Switch.

(If your DM rules this is 'against the Tarrasque's nature' or an obviously self-destructive order and thus won't be obeyed, well, you've still got a Dominated Tarrasque, so you can keep it docile and in one place while you rig the save in your favor.. hire a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard to stand on it or something, get a Bard to Doomspeak it, whatever.)