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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    When you encounter a gnome, you know some tricks are about to be pulled, or already have been. Gnomes are illusionists in the worst case scenario and sneaky pickpockets in the best. They might even be your friends, but that only means their shenanigans are not intended to kill you; they'll still be annoying.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    "The reason people hate us gnomes is because most of us keep telling stupid stories about their families, turnips and exploding inventions. Like my Uncle Vlab who burned off his eye brows when his turnip cannon exploded. He's always telling people stories about our family members"
    —Morten Shadowrock a gnome complaining about his own race.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    In my experience, gnomes are the least versatile. I mean that in a specific way.

    I've only ever seen a handful of gnomes in game, and they were all light-hearted, curious, and overly-cheerful.

    Though to be honest, standard D'n'D gnomes aren't that great to begin with. In terms of fluff, there is very little difference from dwarves...in terms of mechanics they're not too special either (not saying Overpowered or Underpowerd....just not special, most of their traits are replicated by drawves and the rest is some illusion bonuses). Ebberron kinda sorted this one out a little by giving them the "back-stabbing politician" and "gadget tinker" niche firmly, but thats still not alot. PF and 4th give them some fey-related fluff, but that doesn't change much either.

    As much as I don't particularly like gnomes (not hating them either, I'm neutral), it annoys me though that it's likely alot of people don't like them because they aren't Tolken. Elves, Dwarves and Halflings are going to be in every edition of D'n'D because they're in lord of the rings.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    One big reason for the hate is that, as late as 3.5e, there wasn't that much of an obvious identity for the gnomes. They were dwarf-like elves, elf-like halflings, and halfling-like dwarves. You could sum up the orcs, dwarves, elves and halflings as "strong people, tough people, agile magical naturey people, and small people." Gnomes ended up being small, tough, magically naturey people, which always seemed a bit too close to the others.

    Also, the gnome being described as "chaotic" and "trickster" attracted all the worst Chaotic Stupid spellcasters. Also, there tends to be a lot of small-race hate in general; not all of it is gnome specific.

    I personally like the gnome race. I enjoy their curiousity, their innovation, and their relaxed nature. It fits me well when playing a scholar, a tinkerer, or a rogue. I even liked them back in 2nd edition, when they suffered from a wisdom penality from being far too curious for their own good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salbazier View Post
    BTW, anybody knows why they made gnome race anyway? All other race are classics.
    I hope by "classic" you mean "Tolkien".

    As for why they were made? Probably because D&D did not have an inately magical race before that. Elves were supposed to be "magic" but beyond keen eyesight, didn't really have anything magic about them. Gnomes were based a lot more on the mythical fey, and so get magically illusionary abilities and the tricky attitudes.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Gnome Hate? I love gnomes and was unaware of this tendency. i enjoy the natural curiosity of gnomes, their dedication towards both arcane magic and science.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post


    I hope by "classic" you mean "Tolkien".
    Tolkien-era will be more correct. Please Pardon that. I'm not quite aware of classic fantasy literature with Gnomes. Beyond DnD, it seems most of the fantasy stuff out there is just dwarf, elves, orcs or something smiliar. Otherwise it is some new exotic race altogehter. That may be just my lack of reading.
    Last edited by Salbazier; 2010-06-30 at 05:24 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    The only one off the top of my head is Fang the Gnome, which is an Arthurian tale of a Merlin-esque sorceress who employs the help of the gnomes to set right an otherwise cataclysmic series of events. (I haven't sat down to read it yet, so don't press me for too many details.)

    There isn't much literature about gnomes, and the ones that aren't influenced by Tolkien/D&D tend to treat them as european folklore - fairies or spirits which hid in the earth, talked to animals and generally used their magic to keep out of sight. Most children's literature images them like garden gnomes, with pointy hats, large noses, and jolly attitudes. Then again, most fantasy creatures in children's literature tend to have comical appearances and positive personalities.

    Conan didn't have dwarves or elves. The Odyessy did not, either. I can't think of many before Tolkien that did, honestly, and the few elves that I remember we more like Santa's elves than Legolas. Lord of the Rings was very, very big at the time, and D&D is basically LotR the RPG. Almost the entire genre of fantasy afterward has been influenced heavily by either Lord of the Rings or Dungeons and Dragons, and it really shows. Even computer RPGs tend to place elves as humans with magic and pointy ears, and dwarves as humans with high stamina and little magical ability.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    I think gnomes are great!


    You can boil 'em, mash 'em, or put 'em in a stew...

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    I think gnomes are great!


    You can boil 'em, mash 'em, or put 'em in a stew...
    Don't forget punting!

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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    I think gnomes are great!


    You can boil 'em, mash 'em, or put 'em in a stew...
    Now, I'm hungry..
    Quote Originally Posted by Gharkash View Post
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

    Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?



    Eberron gnomes and whisper gnomes are ok though.
    Reading RotD now. In my campaigns, Gnomes are Usually Neutral Evil, so this should provide plenty of ideas.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

    Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?
    This pretty much sums my views up. And remember kids, Garl never had to pay for his crimes.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    The only one off the top of my head is Fang the Gnome, which is an Arthurian tale of a Merlin-esque sorceress who employs the help of the gnomes to set right an otherwise cataclysmic series of events. (I haven't sat down to read it yet, so don't press me for too many details.)

    There isn't much literature about gnomes, and the ones that aren't influenced by Tolkien/D&D tend to treat them as european folklore - fairies or spirits which hid in the earth, talked to animals and generally used their magic to keep out of sight. Most children's literature images them like garden gnomes, with pointy hats, large noses, and jolly attitudes. Then again, most fantasy creatures in children's literature tend to have comical appearances and positive personalities.

    Conan didn't have dwarves or elves. The Odyessy did not, either. I can't think of many before Tolkien that did, honestly, and the few elves that I remember we more like Santa's elves than Legolas. Lord of the Rings was very, very big at the time, and D&D is basically LotR the RPG. Almost the entire genre of fantasy afterward has been influenced heavily by either Lord of the Rings or Dungeons and Dragons, and it really shows. Even computer RPGs tend to place elves as humans with magic and pointy ears, and dwarves as humans with high stamina and little magical ability.
    Another problem being that the lines are very blurred, especially where naming is concerned. A lot of folklore didn't really differentiate between gnome and kobold, or dwarf and gnome.
    Example? The little guys with the pointy red hats standing around as small statues in gardens are called "garden dwarves" in german.
    So at least in swiss legends, dwarves are tiny people living in the mountains and forests in caves under trees, helping people out in exchange for payment, as well as skilled miners.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2010-06-30 at 06:20 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Very true. I could point out The Elves and the Shoemaker as another example. The "elves" in the tale are short, little people who sneak into the house at night unseen, cobble together shoes (or whatever the tale says), and then sneak away to the forest in the morning. They are said to be incredibly destructive when mistreated, or industrious and even singing when treated properly.

    This kind of tale looks to be what the designers had in mind for the gnomes when they were introduced to D&D - a small, unseen people with a flair for magic, craft, and trickery in vengence. They certainly don't sound anything like the elves in D&D, which are largely a Tolkien construct. (Tolkien elves have more in common with the Irish Sidhe, complete with their unearthly beauty and their dark cousins.)

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    I think gnomes are great!


    You can boil 'em, mash 'em, or put 'em in a stew...
    What's taters?
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Re: Kurtulmak: He's evil because he let his desire for revenge rule him. Rather than take up the Gods' offer of setting right what Glittergold did, fixing the great hall he had made and bringing back all of the kobolds to life out of the weyrgild owed him, he instead elected to take the suffering of his dead kobolds and his rage and hate in order to gain godhood in order to pursue revenge against Garl Glittergold and the gnomes (who were not connected to the collapse anyway) for all eternity.

    So, yeah...
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

    Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    Agreed.

    Kobolds are totally justified in pursuit of that particular genocide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeppio View Post
    This pretty much sums my views up. And remember kids, Garl never had to pay for his crimes.
    Uhh... You guys do realize Kurtulmak himself wrote that story, right?

    Do you believe Grummsh and Zarus too?

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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Re: Kurtulmak: He's evil because he let his desire for revenge rule him. Rather than take up the Gods' offer of setting right what Glittergold did, fixing the great hall he had made and bringing back all of the kobolds to life out of the weyrgild owed him, he instead elected to take the suffering of his dead kobolds and his rage and hate in order to gain godhood in order to pursue revenge against Garl Glittergold and the gnomes (who were not connected to the collapse anyway) for all eternity.

    So, yeah...
    Become a god and leave your collapsed mine, or have the mine rebuilt and let your brethren go abandoned by the gods forever more. Gee, what a selfish sod Kurtulmak is. How dare he take Io's offer to become the only divine beacon his kind will ever have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragosai View Post
    (...) I think "most" gamers dislike gnomes because they are always played the same way.
    Like... Every elf is an egomaniac arse, and every dwarf is a drunken heavy hitter?

    I don't see them getting this much hate xD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Whisper Gnomes are one of the best non LA races for 3.5, and a Gnome is used for the Infinite Shadow Dragons build. Svinfeblin (Deep Gnomes) are a decent LA race which get SR and some other nice abilities.

    I think I like them. The only one I don't like is Jan Jansen and his turnip jokes
    There actually is a gnome named Jan Jansen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Uhh... You guys do realize Kurtulmak himself wrote that story, right?

    Do you believe Grummsh and Zarus too?
    Do we believe any gods who wrote auto-biographies?
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    NecromancerGuy

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    ^: There've been Scandinavians with the name, so... quite plausibly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeppio View Post
    Become a god and leave your collapsed mine, or have the mine rebuilt and let your brethren go abandoned by the gods forever more. Gee, what a selfish sod Kurtulmak is. How dare he take Io's offer to become the only divine beacon his kind will ever have.
    And the overwhelming majority worship Tiamat instead and are largely in thrall to dragons as opposed to living for themselves.

    He's such a good divine beacon for the kobolds, really looks out for his people.

    Frankly, from what we can glean from his life and what state kobolds of the current era are in, koboldkind would have been better off with some example surviving of a nation of kobold who were not slaves and had something impressive to go to their names rather than hovels to lay more eggs in.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2010-06-30 at 09:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Bark View Post
    Do we believe any gods who wrote auto-biographies?
    The ones we saw as mortals, yes (e.g. Kelemvor and Midnight.) All the rest... no.

    Especially not the evil ones, who use their sob stories as a crutch to justify leading their people down a path of racism and wickedness. Boohoo, Corellon poked my eye out. Let's rape/pillage!
    Last edited by Optimystik; 2010-06-30 at 09:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Uhh... You guys do realize Kurtulmak himself wrote that story, right?

    Do you believe Grummsh and Zarus too?
    But the gnomes tell the same damn story!

    I mean, yeah, Kurtulmak ain't a good guy at all, sure, but criminey Christmas, even assuming that the whole "Yeah, big K was setting the thing up to be a jerk" bit is the accurate story, with the most gnome positive slant, Garl still admired it and thought the whole jackass pit trap was the best idea ever. And yet he's labeled good.

    Stupid gnomes.
    Last edited by chiasaur11; 2010-06-30 at 09:36 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    But the gnomes tell the same damn story!

    I mean, yeah, Kurtulmak ain't a good guy at all, sure, but criminey Christmas, even assuming that the whole "Yeah, big K was setting the thing up to be a jerk" bit is the accurate story, with the most gnome positive slant, Garl still admired it and thought the whole jackass pit trap was the best idea ever. And yet he's labeled good.

    Stupid gnomes.
    Odd. I think you would be hard pressed to find a PC of any alignment that doesn't laugh when the BBEG walks into his own booby trap and kills himself.

    Good doesn't mean nice, and it especially doesn't mean sympathy for an enemy that was planning on assassinating you. And he mostly admired the mechanical aspects of the trap, not it's intended use. It was quite effective at trapping an evil deity (or demideity at the time), after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    But the gnomes tell the same damn story!
    Where? Races of the Dragon? I can't find anything on the Gnome's perspective there.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Where? Races of the Dragon? I can't find anything on the Gnome's perspective there.
    Oh, no, the older story.

    Sorry. Still looks bad for Garl. Just less actively being evil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    But the gnomes tell the same damn story!

    I mean, yeah, Kurtulmak ain't a good guy at all, sure, but criminey Christmas, even assuming that the whole "Yeah, big K was setting the thing up to be a jerk" bit is the accurate story, with the most gnome positive slant, Garl still admired it and thought the whole jackass pit trap was the best idea ever. And yet he's labeled good.

    Stupid gnomes.
    No they don't they tell a very different story, Kurtulmak was planning to collapse it the whole time. He just didn't intend to be a victim it self.
    Optimystik, the gnome side of the story is in other books, I posted the gnome version earlier in the thread if you'd like to read it. I think one of the versions was in dragon magazine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    But the gnomes tell the same damn story!

    I mean, yeah, Kurtulmak ain't a good guy at all, sure, but criminey Christmas, even assuming that the whole "Yeah, big K was setting the thing up to be a jerk" bit is the accurate story, with the most gnome positive slant, Garl still admired it and thought the whole jackass pit trap was the best idea ever. And yet he's labeled good.

    Stupid gnomes.
    Yeah, I just don't see them as being capable of anything other than CN even at the deity level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    No they don't they tell a very different story, Kurtulmak was planning to collapse it the whole time. He just didn't intend to be a victim it self.
    Optimystik, the gnome side of the story is in other books, I posted the gnome version earlier in the thread if you'd like to read it. I think one of the versions was in dragon magazine.
    I read that - catching the kobold in his own trap seems fine to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    Oh, no, the older story.

    Sorry. Still looks bad for Garl. Just less actively being evil.
    Hoisting Kurtulmak on his own petard isn't evil at all, active or not. Sorry, but with no way to independently verify whose story is true, I'll just respond with [citation needed].

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.
    !

    Summary, nao!

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