General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord

[omegalith]

Here's the thing though: Lunars are only a faction in that they're vaguely similar. They're individualists designed for a support role, and their impact reflects that just fine. Even a Celestial Exalt can barely ever get an opportunity to change the entire world acting as one man, and Lunars only barely grasp teamwork with one another.

Their role? They're the Anathema. They're the boogeyman the Realm had as a scapegoat. They're allies, enemies and complications. They're the voice of nature and the wardens of the borders of reality.

They've never ran the world or tried to destroy it like everyone else, but they endure, because that's what they're good at.

Having a not-really-a-faction at the periphery is fine by me. Claiming a bunch of tricksy survivalist loners were critical more for their prescence and individual moments of heroism than for clear moments of unified action doesn't strike me as odd.

They're the easiest faction to shuffle out, plugging the hole with other characters... But the setting would be less rich for it, losing some of it's variety and an entire deck of wildcards.

[Hiro Protagonest]

They're the easiest faction to shuffle out, plugging the hole with other characters... But the setting would be less rich for it, losing some of it's variety and an entire deck of wildcards.

No, not really. I would prefer if mortals had formed the Haslanti League on their own. Raksi isn't very interesting, she's just some insane person. Ma-Ha-Suchi is just kind of... there. Some vague and unknown threat of a beastman army.

[omegalith]

Raksi: "I'm eating babies!"

Lunar Sorcery Student: "I get the impression you aren't taking this conversation seriously."

Raksi: "What's that you say? Eat more babies?"

[Hiro Protagonest]

Raksi: "I'm eating babies!"

Lunar Sorcery Student: "I get the impression you aren't taking this conversation seriously."

Raksi: "What's that you say? Eat more babies?"

Yes, her purpose seems to consist of being a divine figure for monkey men to worship and follow, and making other people's lives miserable. Things that a lot of supernatural beings can do.

[Urpriest]

omegalith has a point, though: for most of the Realm's existence, Lunars were the only Anathema around. And with no Anathema, I have trouble imagining the Realm keeping together. Oppression needs its bogeymen.

[Dragnar]

What oppression? The Realm is distinct from the Immaculate Faith, even if they are intricately linked, and even without any Anathema, the Realm is a mighty force to be reckoned with, and really is one of the safest places in Creation to live. Just because it also preaches that the Celestial exalted are demons doesn't really change that it is they that saved Creation from utter dissolution in the Balorian Crusade.

Also, you've all forgotten to mention one other problem Lunars have in 2e: Their fluff is horribly disjointed. They're called the Stewards of creation on one hand, but on the other their (supposedly unbreakable and devoted to fighting the Wyld) exaltations broke when exposed to the Wyld for too long. They are the chosen of Luna (A being who takes many forms... ALL OF THEM HUMAN) on one hand, but an attempt to make Werewolves on the other. They're the bonded mates of the Solar exalted on one hand, and treated little better than pets by the mechanics (I'm looking at you, Lunar Taming Leash...) on the other. And so on. They're a mess of contradictions, because no two people seem to be able to agree on what being a Lunar MEANS.

[Turalisj]

omegalith has a point, though: for most of the Realm's existence, Lunars were the only Anathema around. And with no Anathema, I have trouble imagining the Realm keeping together. Oppression needs its bogeymen.

You have trouble imagining a nation the size of Asia keeping together because it is ruled by a single empress who can bend to the will anyone related by blood to her with a snap of her fingers? And said empress has more power in her hands than a dozen nations?

Oh yes, I can totally see how it'd fall apart. But not from a lack of lunars.

[Bahumat]

Also, you've all forgotten to mention one other problem Lunars have in 2e: Their fluff is horribly disjointed. They're called the Stewards of creation on one hand, but on the other their (supposedly unbreakable and devoted to fighting the Wyld) exaltations broke when exposed to the Wyld for too long. They are the chosen of Luna (A being who takes many forms... ALL OF THEM HUMAN) on one hand, but an attempt to make Werewolves on the other. They're the bonded mates of the Solar exalted on one hand, and treated little better than pets by the mechanics (I'm looking at you, Lunar Taming Leash...) on the other. And so on. They're a mess of contradictions, because no two people seem to be able to agree on what being a Lunar MEANS.

For one, Luna's forms in Heaven are his human ones...and there's only a few. Remember, she's what was made when Oramus, the Dragon that Defines what Exists, got his nightmares together, and had them knifefight until one of them was left. Luna is an Eldritch Abomination, and her chosen are supposed to reflect this to some degree.

For two, exaltations have been proven to have been changeable in two other splats (Abyssals, by saturating it in Necrotic Essence, and Infernal, by using it as a power source to run Yozi charms through). The only one of these three that canonically cannot be fixed, to the best of my knowledge, is an Infernal exaltation, unless you kill the exalt in question and hand it over to Lytek. The fact that the Wyld can modify a shard doesn't seem weird fluffwise.

Your last point, it pretty much true. They were designed as companions and protectors for the Solars. Canonically, Solars are more important and more powerful by design. And a lot of Solars, due to the Great Curse, abused the Bond, since it was by design ONLY ONE WAY. Seriously, in my opinion, Solars should be just as bound by the bond as a Lunar, but hey. Might come up in 3e....

Good points about Lunars overall at the moment though.

[omegalith]

.

Yes, her purpose seems to consist of being a divine figure for monkey men to worship and follow, and making other people's lives miserable. Things that a lot of supernatural beings can do.

I was mocking her as a concept, that she happens to be a Lunar is fairly irrelevant given that any other form of elder sitting around guarding a book and obsessively eating babies would be equally silly.

Purposeless somewhat fetishized gory lady is one of the more annoying repeating patterns in the books.

As for the Exaltations adapting to the Wyld but not shifting back yet... What's the problem? Technically a high essence Chimera is perfectly adapted for that environment.

Speaking of high essence Chimerae, the Axe Cop published comics have Everyman, who's blood has been mixed with the blood of "Every good guy, every bad guy, every animal and every weapon".

He turns into a loosely humanoid city-sized mass comprised of all his components randomly mashed together.

"ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO FIGHT EVERYTHING?"

Looks like some random guy in a business suit when dormant.

[omegalith]

Is "Whilst on Fire" an appropriate three dot melee speciality?

[Draken]

If they preach that celestial exalted are demons, they don't really need celestial exalted for the immaculates to hunt. Actual demons would work just as well.

And since actual demons can be controlled, they could simply be summoned in some unruly locations to give the Wyld Hunt an excuse to exterminate some troublemaking group.

[Lix Lorn]

Is "Whilst on Fire" an appropriate three dot melee speciality?

Optimisationwise? No.
Otherwise? Hell yes.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Thus by large Lunars could dissapear from Creation and nobody will notice.

[Exthalion]

If they preach that celestial exalted are demons, they don't really need celestial exalted for the immaculates to hunt. Actual demons would work just as well.

And since actual demons can be controlled, they could simply be summoned in some unruly locations to give the Wyld Hunt an excuse to exterminate some troublemaking group.

Such a game would be dangerous as it could eventually come out that they were responsible. If that happened they would lose popular support, in the Threshold at last.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Exthalion, pray tell why they would need popularity support in the Treshold ? Peasant opinions are largely unimportant. Those in power are ... often antagonistic to them, at least passively. Those of the Client States do not have their own opinion that matters, too.

And why summon Demons when Fair Folk can be blamed for everything and are much easier to combat than Unclean Spirits ? Everyone knows they eat souls !

Wyld Hunt is named such for a reason. Existence of Lunars is ... overlooked. There are legendary Anathema and Fair Folk. Enough to justify existence of Wyld Hunt.

Optimisationwise? No.
Otherwise? Hell yes.

Fire Aspects anyone ?

[Kyeudo]

The Solars weren't entirely sealed in the Jade Prison. A small number of Exaltations, mostly Night Caste, were still running loose. The Wyld Hunt was there to hunt Solars. Hunting Lunars, behemoths, and demons was what the Wyld Hunts did when there were no Solars nearby. The threat of Anathema remains, even if the Lunars disappeared.

[Draken]

Such a game would be dangerous as it could eventually come out that they were responsible. If that happened they would lose popular support, in the Threshold at last.

There is a simple and obvious answer to this minuscule problem.

Sidereals.

[Exthalion]

Exthalion, pray tell why they would need popularity support in the Treshold ? Peasant opinions are largely unimportant. Those in power are ... often antagonistic to them, at least passively. Those of the Client States do not have their own opinion that matters, too.

Realm foreign policy for the most part consisted of the Empress informing people, "Don't make me come over there." Those who did make her (or her appointed representative) come over there were strongly encouraged to never, ever, think about doing it again.

For the most part this system worked. However, the Realm is dependent on the tribute from the Threshold now. The Terrestrials could not support their extravagant lifestyles without it, and the Realm could not keep up even what little artifact production it currently has without the influx of exotic material components.

If it were to come out that on top of the military oppression, crippling taxation, and religious domination the Realm was summoning demons to cause trouble for the people there would be riots. The tribute would slow to a trickle, and the Legions would have to be deployed. The high cost of maintaining forces in the field combined with the reduced revenue would start to put a major financial strain on the Great Houses and possibly the Realm itself. More to the point it wouldn't work because the Threshold is too large for even all of the Realm Legions to keep control of. They would constantly be moving from one revolt to the next only to watch their prior successes evaporate as soon as they were out of sight.

Not to mention it would provide so much political ammunition to Lookshy that you could be looking at a very large power block with Terrestrials of its own arrayed against the Realm. At that point everything that has been achieved in the past two thousand years comes undone and the Empress has to start using the Sword of Creation again.

Also, most of them actually buy into the Immaculate Faith. Meaning that it would be very difficult to convince them to get behind such a plan. There are very powerful Terrestrials who either have a vested interest in or strong devotion to the Faith. Even the Empress depends on it to keep the gods and elementals in line so that they aren't being disobedient every time they think they can get away with it.

[Lix Lorn]

Such a game would be dangerous as it could eventually come out that they were responsible. If that happened they would lose popular support, in the Threshold at last.

Same as it would eventually come out that Anathema are generally pretty cool guys?

Realm foreign policy for the most part consisted of the Empress informing people, "Don't make me come over there."

This though, can I sig this?

[Exthalion]

This though, can I sig this?

Feel free to.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Thank you for the elaborate reasoning behind your line of thought, Exthalion.

True, the lives current crop of Dynast live are super-extravagant and due to the lack of Empress they go wilder and wilder. She enforced some moderation on the exploitation of the vassal states. To keep them too weak to get silly ideas but not desperate enough to strike regardless of chances like people and rats pushed against the wall do.

Realm's main problem with Artifact production stems from the fact that artifice isn't respected there. Only "military prowess" was nurtured by Her Redness, and with her gone it all goes ... haywire to say it lightly. What stops the Dynasts from going safari to hunt the ingredients ? Or from buying these from the Guild ?

Low level Artifacts, especially modest ones, don't have very extravagant ingredient requirments like the mighty ones from the top tiers of the ladder.

Long story short. That would be setbacks for the Realm only for a time. Realm's troops would learn during these wars, and all devastation would happen on the Treshold. Loot would go to the Realm's coffers. That would bring ruination to the Treshold, and polarization of the forces between those strong enough to repel Realm like some big alliance centered around Lookshy and those too scared to act against Realm. Rest would be piles of bodies and smoking ruins. And Realm would thin it's military ranks of the useless political candidates, leaving only those who can find their way on the battlefield.

Pure profit in a way.

About the Immaculate Faith and it's adherents. Who said anything about Dragon-Blooded summoning demons ? And Immaculates to boot ?! After all it could be "unidentified Anathema worshipers", who can be simple Thaumaturgists, who cause all the Demon Alert commotion.

The case with 5-10 not imprisoned Exaltations. It's hard to tell how much impact such people could have on the setting. Perhaps big, perhaps not so big. Still without Lunars it wouldn't buckle into "och there are Holes in Creation's believability left ! Something is AMISS." thus it confirms the point of view that Lunars are treated not very kindly. And, being Exalted and all, are even less important than mortal masses.

[omegalith]

Same as it would eventually come out that Anathema are generally pretty cool guys?

Who often don't see any problem with the idea of casual brainwashing through the medium of supernatural charm.

Dragonbloods can as well of course.

[Exthalion]

Thank you for the elaborate reasoning behind your line of thought, Exthalion.

No problem. Thank you for your reasoning as well.

Realm's main problem with Artifact production stems from the fact that artifice isn't respected there. Only "military prowess" was nurtured by Her Redness, and with her gone it all goes ... haywire to say it lightly. What stops the Dynasts from going safari to hunt the ingredients ? Or from buying these from the Guild ?

While they could theoretically do this, it would be yet another hole for the Realm to pour money down. The Realm and the Guild generally hate each other as they compete in the same markets. With the Realm subsidizing the Guild and obligated to not do things like sink their ships the balance of economic power will shift away from them. Safari on the other hand pulls Terrestrials away from the Realm and its relatively close problems. Such expeditions would either be insanely expensive with all the swag that Terrestrials would drag along with them or would leave the DBs vulnerable without a support structure. While some may come back with ships loaded with treasure, others will never return thus depriving the Realm of Terrestrials, components, and the resources behind those expeditions.

Low level Artifacts, especially modest ones, don't have very extravagant ingredient requirments like the mighty ones from the top tiers of the ladder.

It isn't just difficulty, it is quantity. The Realm has operating factory cathedrals that require some nasty exotic material components every year to stay functional. Also, the Realm has stockpiles of daiklaves and other such simple things. It is the harder to make stuff that they are in constant need of.

Long story short. That would be setbacks for the Realm only for a time. Realm's troops would learn during these wars, and all devastation would happen on the Treshold. Loot would go to the Realm's coffers. That would bring ruination to the Treshold, and polarization of the forces between those strong enough to repel Realm like some big alliance centered around Lookshy and those too scared to act against Realm. Rest would be piles of bodies and smoking ruins. And Realm would thin it's military ranks of the useless political candidates, leaving only those who can find their way on the battlefield.

Pure profit in a way.

There would very quickly come a point of diminishing returns. Eventually they will have taken everything of value and destroyed the ability of the people to produce more things of value. The Realm's troops are already trained to high standards so constant warefare will only dilute their effectiveness as they are forced to replace casualties with relatively untrained peasant levies. Also, there are forces at play in the Threshold who would love this sort of thing. The Bull would be more or less unchallenged, the Lunars would have a near perfect opportunity to run rampant, The Mask of Winters would be laughing all the way to the bank, etc. Right now there is a sort of equilibrium because no one wants to make the first move. However, once the Realm is over extended across the Threshold the other power players will not have to fear an overwhelming response.

Oh, and the number of battlefield exaltations would become obscene. The thought of a fairly united Solar and Lunar host would wake up the Sidereals and the heads of the Great Houses screaming at night.

About the Immaculate Faith and it's adherents. Who said anything about Dragon-Blooded summoning demons ? And Immaculates to boot ?! After all it could be "unidentified Anathema worshipers", who can be simple Thaumaturgists, who cause all the Demon Alert commotion.

While the Empress was fond of not informing the left hand of what the right was doing, such a deception would end up with a lot of hard to replace people dead. Thaumaturges don't just grow on trees, they require years of training to become skilled enough to summon demons. There would be Immaculate Terrestrials who would try to solve this problem out of religious obligation and would almost certainly track down who ever it was in the Realm that started it.

[Dragnar]

For one, Luna's forms in Heaven are his human ones...and there's only a few. Remember, she's what was made when Oramus, the Dragon that Defines what Exists, got his nightmares together, and had them knifefight until one of them was left. Luna is an Eldritch Abomination, and her chosen are supposed to reflect this to some degree.

Admittedly true. Luna can take many forms! She's a nightmare, straight from the dreams of the impossible! And that's why TAW lunars are still amazing shapeshifters. The problem is that canon ones are, for no adequately explained reason, linked more to animals than anything else. It is, in fact, much harder for them to take human forms than animal ones.

Turning into animals makes perfect sense for the Chosen of Luna. Turning into animals as a primary theme only makes sense for some theoretical Chosen of Gaia. (Admittedly, I could see an argument that the spirit shape was placed there as a symbol of Luna's love for Gaia. But that's only a partial explanation!)

For two, exaltations have been proven to have been changeable in two other splats (Abyssals, by saturating it in Necrotic Essence, and Infernal, by using it as a power source to run Yozi charms through). The only one of these three that canonically cannot be fixed, to the best of my knowledge, is an Infernal exaltation, unless you kill the exalt in question and hand it over to Lytek. The fact that the Wyld can modify a shard doesn't seem weird fluffwise.

Are Abyssals or Infernals called broken? It would have been perfectly reasonable to claim that Chimerism is how Lunars express the Great Curse, their protean nature going out of control... But instead, they claim that they are broken by the wyld. That's roughly as nonsensical as claiming that Abyssal exaltations would 'break' if they spent too much time in the Underworld.

Exaltations can be changed! But both other examples are from the titans that made the world intentionally focusing their might onto them... not the result of a dream that the Lunars were made to fight driving them insane. I might be able to see some kind of 'he who fights monsters' thing for a Lunar who kills too many fae, but that's different from making the exaltation itself permanently lesser.

Your last point, it pretty much true. They were designed as companions and protectors for the Solars. Canonically, Solars are more important and more powerful by design. And a lot of Solars, due to the Great Curse, abused the Bond, since it was by design ONLY ONE WAY. Seriously, in my opinion, Solars should be just as bound by the bond as a Lunar, but hey. Might come up in 3e....

Yeah, the bond is actually consistent at least... but it's consistent in a really really stupid way. Not to mention the mechanical issues of making characters pay for a background that, in the majority of cases, is actually going to nerf them.


...Oh, and as for the Realm's artifact problems: Man, that's only an issue at all because they're jerks to the Jadeborn! If they befriended the people living right underneath them, instead of demanding free stuff by divine right, maybe their fully functional first age tech wouldn't be a closely kept secret!

[omegalith]

Strictly speaking, it's the Castes that are broken. Initially, Lunars shifted across five castes according to the time of month, but later that shifted to the spark slowly becoming fixed in the form that most suits it's weilder.

By spending centuries in the Wyld, the Lunars unintentionally forced their Exaltations to adapt to the more chaotic environment, shifting to a model that adapts to the time of month in a more loose manner whilst also forcing it's wielder to physically adapt over time.

Obviously, humans aren't particularly thrilled by that setup. Worse, the Great Curse aggravates the condition. Each limit break in the bounds of the Wyld has a cumulative permanent effect on the Lunar's sanity.

And so, the Moonsilver Tattoos enforce artificial stability. Alas, they don't actually return the Exaltation from Wyld mode to Creation mode and thus the effect is a touch rough around the edges.

In other words, there's no actual breaking, merely what is percieved as one in-setting.

[Dragnar]

I've heard that argument before, and it almost works! But, well... There's no upside. None. The idea that the exaltations adapted to the Wyld? Awesome. But the way they changed is flat out worse than they were before. Not so awesome anymore.

[omegalith]

I've heard that argument before, and it almost works! But, well... There's no upside. None. The idea that the exaltations adapted to the Wyld? Awesome. But the way they changed is flat out worse than they were before. Not so awesome anymore.

Put it this way: Would you deny a Chimera is well adapted to survive and thrive in the Wyld?

Exaltations are not smart. An adaptation that doesn't remotely serve the desires of the human user isn't nessecarily bad from the automated perspective of the shard itself.

[Rikandur Azebol]

I also enjoy this argument fencing.

While they could theoretically do this, it would be yet another hole for the Realm to pour money down. The Realm and the Guild generally hate each other as they compete in the same markets. With the Realm subsidizing the Guild and obligated to not do things like sink their ships the balance of economic power will shift away from them. Safari on the other hand pulls Terrestrials away from the Realm and its relatively close problems. Such expeditions would either be insanely expensive with all the swag that Terrestrials would drag along with them or would leave the DBs vulnerable without a support structure. While some may come back with ships loaded with treasure, others will never return thus depriving the Realm of Terrestrials, components, and the resources behind those expeditions.

They could cut on the expensive princeling lifestyle. Virtuous Dynasts adhering to the Immaculate Doctrine would prevail. All in all, when shocked out of the spoiled by too much good things positioning Realms currently enjoys they would have to cut costs and develop more sophiscated strategies than "we shot at them with our most expensive weaponry, yay" that seem so prevalent in the Exaltedverse.

Ask yourself a question, do Realm really need the Factory Cathedrals ? If yes, they will find a way. Maybe even peaceful one.

If not ... nothing stops them from cutting down on the frivolities of excessive expenses and settle down with cheaper and more cost efficient stuff.

Daiklaves and Jade armors work ? Great. Let's breed more Dragon Blooded to fill the ranks of our strike teams.

EDIT: Not to mention were they to actually Pay the Jadeborn for the artifacts. Like it was mentioned ...

It isn't just difficulty, it is quantity. The Realm has operating factory cathedrals that require some nasty exotic material components every year to stay functional. Also, the Realm has stockpiles of daiklaves and other such simple things. It is the harder to make stuff that they are in constant need of.

And that harder to make stuff ... please ask yourself if it is actually necessary to have ? Necessity is the mother of invention and I bet that Exalted scholars can and will invent cheaper and more cost efficient ways than super-complicated Magitech of the Shogunate and Anathema Eras.

There would very quickly come a point of diminishing returns. Eventually they will have taken everything of value and destroyed the ability of the people to produce more things of value. The Realm's troops are already trained to high standards so constant warefare will only dilute their effectiveness as they are forced to replace casualties with relatively untrained peasant levies. Also, there are forces at play in the Threshold who would love this sort of thing. The Bull would be more or less unchallenged, the Lunars would have a near perfect opportunity to run rampant, The Mask of Winters would be laughing all the way to the bank, etc. Right now there is a sort of equilibrium because no one wants to make the first move. However, once the Realm is over extended across the Threshold the other power players will not have to fear an overwhelming response.

Well, Realm have all those strategists and brains behind it's enormous muscles to win cheaply the wars they have to wage, right ? So ... after few field executions of failures of the commanders, I think the overall performance will improve.

And soldiers have two sources of experience. Long and hard training and battlefields. Survivors gain XP. Almost like in D&D.

Besides, who loses more from that ? Realm can feed itself as from the Treshold it takes mostly exotica and other such things that they don't need to survive, merely want to live in opulence.

Treshold, on the other hand ... won't fare any good with ruined infrastructures and other such results of the protracted warfare. Only Lookshy have anything on par with Realm. Bull might be great general, thanks to Charms, but how he'll feed his warriors from salted fields ? Who, when Realm takes all peasants and livestocks will WORK so our great Bull can play warlord ? Realm have solid economy that, without invasion on the Blessed Isle, won't suffer much from their rampage on the Treshold.

Oh, and the number of battlefield exaltations would become obscene. The thought of a fairly united Solar and Lunar host would wake up the Sidereals and the heads of the Great Houses screaming at night.

I believe you over-estimate what the unexperienced Exalted Solars could do. With training, having time to grow in power ? Yes. Against DB veterans Solar noobs ? They die messily.

While the Empress was fond of not informing the left hand of what the right was doing, such a deception would end up with a lot of hard to replace people dead. Thaumaturges don't just grow on trees, they require years of training to become skilled enough to summon demons. There would be Immaculate Terrestrials who would try to solve this problem out of religious obligation and would almost certainly track down who ever it was in the Realm that started it.

They are cheaper than DB's and always can be hired from "Anathema Cults" or Sids can spread rumors with their brain-hacking charms. Guild can provide, too. They may hate Realm but dinar is dinar.

[Sanguine]

I've said this before many threads back but it bears repeating.

My main problem with the breaking of the Castes isn't that the Wyld was able to break them. I do have a problem with that, don't get me wrong. But it's a relatively minor one. My problem is that every single Exaltation was effected.

We have a group of three hundred highly individualistic people, even by Exalted standards. And you're telling me that every single one of them fled to the Wyld? Not even one of them thought to go to Malfeas or the Underworld? Or to hide in those little pocket dimensions Lunars can create? I call bull.

[omegalith]

I've said this before many threads back but it bears repeating.

My main problem with the breaking of the Castes isn't that the Wyld was able to break them. I do have a problem with that, don't get me wrong. But it's a relatively minor one. My problem is that every single Exaltation was effected.

We have a group of three hundred highly individualistic people, even by Exalted standards. And you're telling me that every single one of them fled to the Wyld? Not even one of them thought to go to Malfeas or the Underworld? Or to hide in those little pocket dimensions Lunars can create? I call bull.

A little odd, ya. Astrology apparently made it tricky until the Balorian crusade to hang out in solid reality, but Lunars with necrotic or fiendish castes would be welcome.

Even Yu-Shan is unlikely to be hostile other than the Bronzes. Angry political activist Beaurau of Nature member Lunars, anyone?