What proportion of people are happy?

[Donnadogsoth]

I have a friend and one day our conversation turned to the prospect of happiness in this life. He said that he didn't think anyone was truly happy, and he cited Hollywood celebrities as people exemplifying fake happiness. I think this might be a bit misleading, for movie stars are artificially selected to be good liars and thus it should be no surprise if their poses of opulent bliss are extremely inflated.

I think otherwise to my friend. I think happiness is possible in life, and by happiness I don't mean grim duty or the mere absence of pain and anguish. I mean something like:

Birth of your child
Tender moments with your child
Tender moments with your spouse
Tender moments with your friend
Joy in accomplishment
Infatuation
Wedding day
Marital warmth
Joy of discovery
Joy of helping a stranger
Joy of apprehending beauty
Losing oneself in a good book
Losing oneself in a musical performance

How many of these experiences does one need to have, or need to have within a given interval, to be said to be happy? There's no standard, because everyone “tunes in” to these experiences differently. Someone might win a war and feel nothing. Another might learn a ditty on the piano and be thrilled. So, part of happiness is being tuned into the happy things one meets in life. If a person tunes in sufficiently to these things, so that they never experience moments of despair, because their happiness is riding roughshod over the unhappy things in their life, then that person must be happy, if anyone is.

Given that standard: one's joys riding roughshod over one's pains and sadnesses, no matter one's fortune, over an indefinitely long period of time, such that the person can maintain this joy indefinitely and will never succumb to any defining unhappiness, and never despairs, even of they aren't always as happy as humanly possible—what proportion of the population is happy like this?

[S@tanicoaldo]

Happiness is a way of travel, not a destination, we are never truly happy we just have happy moments in our life.

[Razade]

I have a friend

Well brag why don't you.

and one day our conversation turned to the prospect of happiness in this life.

Ah yes. As humans do.

He said that he didn't think anyone was truly happy, and he cited Hollywood celebrities as people exemplifying fake happiness. I think this might be a bit misleading, for movie stars are artificially selected to be good liars and thus it should be no surprise if their poses of opulent bliss are extremely inflated.

Certainly misleading but not for your conspiracy theory grade idea. It's misleading because "happiness" isn't a thing that happens all the time and saying someone is being "fake happy" to cover up never being happy is...absurd.

I think otherwise to my friend. I think happiness is possible in life, and by happiness I don't mean grim duty or the mere absence of pain and anguish. I mean something like:

I certainly think it's possible but again, Happiness isn't something you have and never get rid of. It's fleeting by the nature of emotions. I'd certainly think that the absence of pain and anguish would make me a happier person though.

But this is, startlingly, a time you give examples so let's look at them.

Birth of your child

Would certainly make someone happy if they wanted said kid but I doubt this is a universal thing that would make people happy. I wouldn't be happy if I was having a kid as I don't want children.

Tender moments with your child

See above.

Tender moments with your spouse
Tender moments with your friend

Tender moments with yourself?

Joy in accomplishment

Getting close to that Grim Duty thing above. But people generally feel better when they've achieved something sure.

Infatuation

I suppose if it's reciprocated. If it's not, I doubt it would make you very happy. I'd think the very opposite. Unrequited love is...brutal.

Wedding day
Marital warmth

Are you getting married soon? Because a lot of your examples center around it.

Joy of discovery
Joy of helping a stranger
Joy of apprehending beauty
Losing oneself in a good book
Losing oneself in a musical performance

If people enjoy these sorts of things sure.

How many of these experiences does one need to have, or need to have within a given interval, to be said to be happy?

Happiness isn't like gaining a level in a video game. It's weird because you literally answer yourself.

There's no standard, because everyone “tunes in” to these experiences differently. Someone might win a war and feel nothing. Another might learn a ditty on the piano and be thrilled. So, part of happiness is being tuned into the happy things one meets in life. If a person tunes in sufficiently to these things, so that they never experience moments of despair, because their happiness is riding roughshod over the unhappy things in their life, then that person must be happy, if anyone is.

MUST they? Despair isn't the opposite of happiness. Indifference is. You can do all of these things and not be happy. Boredom is a thing. Depression is a thing. Diminishing returns is a thing.

Given that standard: one's joys riding roughshod over one's pains and sadnesses, no matter one's fortune, over an indefinitely long period of time, such that the person can maintain this joy indefinitely and will never succumb to any defining unhappiness, and never despairs, even of they aren't always as happy as humanly possible—what proportion of the population is happy like this?

Unquantifiable because your measurement of happiness isn't the same as everyone else's. Not to mention you'd have to poll a significant amount of people, assume they're not lying or overselling themselves and their experiences and...yeah.

The answer to your question is that your metric is shoddy and biased.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Can I just say that from what I observe after they are past the little cute phase kids are more a source of annoyance and unhappiness then joy. :/

We sure can minimize suffering by getting detached with material things or strong emotions. That's what the stoics used to say or something.

[2D8HP]

Well brag why don't you.....

Reading that made me happy (momentarily).



Thanks Razade!

[Razade]

Reading that made me happy (momentarily).



Thanks Razade!

Sarcasm and depricating humor is as valid a form of happiness as any other. And it makes other people unhappy. Wonder how that would sync up with Donna's typical philosophy?

[Flickerdart]

The World Happiness Report assigns each country a happiness score from 1 to 10. We can assume that citizens in each country are thus, on average, that happy. We can place those numbers against the population of each country to get the amount of happy people in each country. The happiness report people didn't go to every country, but they went to most (about 500 million people are unaccounted for).

Of the countries they did visit, the total population is 7.375 billion of which 3.864 billion are happy, about 52.4%. That number is probably lower if you account for the missing half-billion, since they are largely from poor, dangerous nations.

So let's call it even and say roughly half of the people in the world are happy. Math!

[Aliquid]

Nobody is always happy... So, what would qualify for someone to be "truly happy".

Is your friend suggesting that people aren't even momentarily happy... at any point in their life? That's a depressing world view.

To be honest, being "happy" isn't something I really strive for in life. My goal is to be "content"

[Donnadogsoth]

Nobody is always happy... So, what would qualify for someone to be "truly happy".

Is your friend suggesting that people aren't even momentarily happy... at any point in their life? That's a depressing world view.

To be honest, being "happy" isn't something I really strive for in life. My goal is to be "content"

He would say that no one is happy enough to warrant the term; in this life there are just momentary thrills, but everything ultimately is a cheat.

You don't find aiming for mediocre brain states to be depressing in its own way?

[Aliquid]

He would say that no one is happy enough to warrant the term; in this life there are just momentary thrills, but everything ultimately is a cheat.

You don't find aiming for mediocre brain states to be depressing in its own way?

"Content" isn't mediocre. In my opinion it is better than happy. Happy is fleeting and too energetic for my liking (at least if it is sustained, brief events are good)... Content on the other hand is calm peaceful and longer lasting.

[Donnadogsoth]

"Content" isn't mediocre. In my opinion it is better than happy. Happy is fleeting and too energetic for my liking (at least if it is sustained, brief events are good)... Content on the other hand is calm peaceful and longer lasting.

What proportion of people do you think are content?

[Aliquid]

What proportion of people do you think are content?

Depends entirely where you are. If you live somewhere with warfare or violence as a constant backdrop... it is hard to be content when you are afraid for you life (or the lives of your loved ones). If you live surrounded by poverty and/or unemployment, it can be hard to be content when you are busy worrying about food and shelter.

I think Flickerdart's link is a pretty good representation of that.

[veti]

He would say that no one is happy enough to warrant the term; in this life there are just momentary thrills, but everything ultimately is a cheat.

That's as dumb a point as I've ever seen, if you're representing it at all fairly. If we're going to talk about "ultimately", then "ultimately" we're all dead, and anything we felt in life is irrelevant anyway. As Pratchett points out once or twice, the whole of life is basically just postponing the inevitable.

At any given time, probability says, a significant proportion of everyone is happy, even if "only" transiently.

I've been pretty happy since I got married, and more so since we had kids. Sure, in that time I've also been unhappy. Frustrated, angry, bored, terrified, disgusted, sad, you name it. All emotions are fleeting, like life itself. But - just by comparing the last ten years of my life to the previous 20, I would say I've been, on balance, happy for that time.

[Florian]

Being "happy" or feeling "joy" are always just fleeting feelings of the moment. It´s more important to be content with life or even lead something that could be counted as a fulfilling life. This in turn makes it easier the feel happiness or joyfulness when it comes up, because frankly, stressed-out or depressed people tend to not find those things in the "small things" when they happen.

[danzibr]

I would call myself overall happy, but I certainly have my unhappy moments.

[Suttle]

1-Pick one
2-Follow it.
3- ???
4- Be happy.

I belive you would be fine in a mix of Platonism, stoicism, theism and confucianism, but only you can find your own philosophy.

[Glorthindel]

"Content" isn't mediocre. In my opinion it is better than happy. Happy is fleeting and too energetic for my liking (at least if it is sustained, brief events are good)... Content on the other hand is calm peaceful and longer lasting.

I was going to write a long spiel about the difference between happiness and being content, but this hits it much more succintly than I can.

[2D8HP]

The World Happiness Report.....

1) Norway
2) Denmark
3) Iceland
4) Switzerland
5) Finland
6) Thr Netherlands
7) Canada
8) New Zealand
9) Australia
10) Sweden

Aha!

I know of exactly one Dane on this Forum (Denmark is #2 on the list), and he's always putting "smilies" in his posts!

Any Norwegians (Norway is #1) at the Playground?

The only non-cold nations in the top ten are

The Netherlands (#6),

New Zealand (#8),

and

Australia (#9),

but mostly it's small nations that are closer to the North Pole, so obviously those are where Santa Claus is going first!

Conclusion: Christmas presents are the major source of happiness.

Also yodelling (Switzerland is #4).

Bicycling? (Copenhagen in Denmark, and Amsterdam in the Netherlands are famous for lots of bikes).

Sheep (New Zealand).

And Mad Max movies (Australia).

So to be truly happy, have a ticket to see "Fury Road", bicycle to the theatre, sit with a lamb, and yodel during the screening on Christmas day.

-Your welcome.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Maybe coldness is also a factor?

Or lack of religion?

[2D8HP]

Norway!



Being all happy, just grinds my gears it does!

[S@tanicoaldo]

Isn't Bhutan the happiest place on earth?

I'm sure I heard this time after time.

[2D8HP]

Isn't Bhutan the happiest place on earth?

I'm sure I heard this time after time.

Bhutan invented the Gross National Happiness concept as a goal, but they don't rate the happiest, that would be the most contented kingdom the world has ever known, called 'Happy Valley' ruled over by a wise old king called Otto. And all his subjects flourished and are happy, and there are no discontents or grumblers, because wise King Otto had had them all put to death along with the trade union leaders many years before. And all the good happy folk of Happy Valley sing and dance all day long. And anyone who is for any reason miserable or unhappy or who has any difficult personal problems is prosecuted under the 'Happiness Act'.

[Donnadogsoth]

That's as dumb a point as I've ever seen, if you're representing it at all fairly. If we're going to talk about "ultimately", then "ultimately" we're all dead, and anything we felt in life is irrelevant anyway. As Pratchett points out once or twice, the whole of life is basically just postponing the inevitable.

At any given time, probability says, a significant proportion of everyone is happy, even if "only" transiently.

I've been pretty happy since I got married, and more so since we had kids. Sure, in that time I've also been unhappy. Frustrated, angry, bored, terrified, disgusted, sad, you name it. All emotions are fleeting, like life itself. But - just by comparing the last ten years of my life to the previous 20, I would say I've been, on balance, happy for that time.

It might make it clearer to consider whether a given life is worth doing over again, not to correct or improve it, nor to simply live the exact life over again (which would be logically impossible--how do I know I'm not reliving it right now?), but rather to live a life of equal happiness over again. Would it be worth doing so? Or would it be better to pass on to whatever one thinks one will pass on to?

[Vinyadan]

Enter the Misery Filter. http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/12/24...ad-are-things/

[S@tanicoaldo]

It might make it clearer to consider whether a given life is worth doing over again, not to correct or improve it, nor to simply live the exact life over again (which would be logically impossible--how do I know I'm not reliving it right now?), but rather to live a life of equal happiness over again. Would it be worth doing so? Or would it be better to pass on to whatever one thinks one will pass on to?

Since existence is the only way we know to exist I'm sure it's impossible to compare since we have no other reference on how to live and exist.

[2D8HP]

It might make it clearer to consider whether a given life is worth...

Your trying to figure out if a life is "worth" living?

Get a motorcycle.

Ride to where others riders congregate, such as "Alice's Restaurant" in San Mateo county, and "The Wall" in the hills above Berkeley.

Learn the other riders names.

When you don't see them anymore ask what happened to them.

You could also try:

Hearing gunfire and seeing the muzzle flash on city streets.

Have loaded firearms pointed at you.

I think those will give you some idea of how much you value a life.

[Donnadogsoth]

Your trying to figure out if a life is "worth" living?

Get a motorcycle.

Ride to where others riders congregate, such as "Alice's Restaurant" in San Mateo county, and "The Wall" in the hills above Berkeley.

Learn the other riders names.

When you don't see them anymore ask what happened to them.

You could also try:

Hearing gunfire and seeing the muzzle flash on city streets.

Have loaded firearms pointed at you.

I think those will give you some idea of how much you value a life.

I'm presuming you speak from experience. If so, what are your conclusions?

[Donnadogsoth]

Since existence is the only way we know to exist I'm sure it's impossible to compare since we have no other reference on how to live and exist.

You have an imagination don't you? Your life isn't a single undifferentiated line of sameness, is it? So, it should be possible to consider a bad period of one's life and expand it to fill one's entire life, and then ask whether that would make life not worth living or not.

[S@tanicoaldo]

You have an imagination don't you? Your life isn't a single undifferentiated line of sameness, is it? So, it should be possible to consider a bad period of one's life and expand it to fill one's entire life, and then ask whether that would make life not worth living or not.

Sometimes it sure feels like :/

Anyway, I was referring to afterlife stuff.

But what makes a life worth or not worth living is hardly the events but the internal structures, that's why we have people with terrible existences, with drugs, sadness, war and hunger that are positive and looking forward to a better life and people who are rich and have everything and are suicidal.

That's why I have great problems with the idea of heaven, a perfect existence sounds so dull and boring, we need to conflict to feel alive.

[2D8HP]

I'm presuming you speak from experience. If so, what are your conclusions?

That deaths are to be feared and mourned not welcomed.

....it should be possible to consider a bad period of one's life and expand it to fill one's entire life, and then ask whether that would make life not worth living or not.

I encourage you to share your feelings at the

Personal Woes and Advice
thread,

and to read the

What Do You Do For Fun?

and the

What do you enjoy?
threads.