The Culture v's 40kverse

[The Glyphstone]

Oh they're around and have their own RPG and all.

In many ways live better then most in 40k... but... they're job description also includes routinely spending time in hell just a few devices and an arrogant mutant away from disaster. Also like any boss job it surely proves less glorious on a daily basis then it might seem. (Paperwork....)

Me if I absolutely had to live in the 40k verse I'd probably go with those human populations that have defected to the Tau. Technological advancement, an inclusive if not permissive social policy and so forth means their something like hope there. If the 'Nids and Chaos don't eat everything quick enough the Tau have a better outlook then anyone. Only crap FTL really holding them back.

Unless the Tau decide to quietly sterilize your entire population through your drinking water or something.

Yeah, I thought that was stupid too - a needless throw-in to make Tau as grimdark as everything else.

[Leliel]

Because choice here isn't a question of "How many flavors of ice cream do I get?" so much as a "Why is my existence better than my nonexistance?"

In Brave New World, people (with only a very small number of exceptions) absolutely love living in The World State. The have, to paraphrase previous posters, pretty much eliminated almost every one of the problems which humanity has dealt with for our entire existence and built a Fordist "utopia" of happy-fun-times. The Alphas are smarter and better and more moral than the rest of the population, but don't mistreat them; they rule like benevolent parents, and who doesn't like that idea? Heck, if you don't like it you can go live somewhere else; plenty of people leave The World State and go live unmolested their whole lives.

(Hmmm, this all sounds vaguely familiar...)

Yet the book leads us to see how ultimately empty and meaningless that kind of society is. The permissive "freedom" it offers, surely greater than any human society, does nothing more than to keep people emotionally and chemically dependent on their society and its nihilistic "values". And it is so stable, so entrenched, that even opposing it can have no result other than your own exile, without having really changed anything. It is a portrait of the death of Humanity; a society of last men where heroism is impossible.

Congrats, the very point of the Culture
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Your head.

Firstly: Bull. Huxley obviously didn't study sociology, because a society dependent on such a caste system is dead in the water. All it needs is a single malfunction in the soma plants that take long enough to fix that the stores of the stuff run out for a significant population-a storm may be the cause-or a glitch in the cloning process, and the whole system gains a fault that it cannot acclimate to, and volia-farewell BNW, glad to see you go.

Secondly: The Culture is a society that views ubermenschen and loners as a perfectly normal and praised part of their society, so the parallels are already shaky. Also, they prize individuality and drive-they simply think of everything as a hobby, so both raw decadence and SCIENCE! are both pleasures to be pursued. This is quite unlike BNW, which actively strikes against noncomformity-that's why the exiles are actively denied the pleasures of the government, whereas the Culture gives them thirty acres and a ship, as it were. The Culture has no restrictions, the nation in BNW is built on them. The Culture is a socially-mobile republic, the BNW is a caste-mandated dictatorship.

Ultimately, the Culture would find such a world both utterly abhorrent and unsettling similar what would happen if they went wrong at some point in their past.

[Forum Explorer]

Oh, he does:

He also thinks I'm a fascist money-loving power junkie for disagreeing but that's another matter entirely

Playing Devil's Advocate here:


That's not what he said. He said that in universe the Culture is a utopia and unless you are a fascist money-loving power junkie, or to put it another way, the only way you can be happy is if others are miserable, then you'll be happy. Why wouldn't you be? And that he would be happy to live in the Culture.

Unless the Tau decide to quietly sterilize your entire population through your drinking water or something.

Yeah, I thought that was stupid too - a needless throw-in to make Tau as grimdark as everything else.

Bah! That's nothing but Imperial Propaganda

More seriously I don't think that actually has been added in. Unless it's in the fluff of the new rulebook. Otherwise it remains mostly rumors and a fan-theory.

[Luzahn]

Oh they're around and have their own RPG and all.

In many ways live better then most in 40k... but... they're job description also includes routinely spending time in hell just a few devices and an arrogant mutant away from disaster. Also like any boss job it surely proves less glorious on a daily basis then it might seem. (Paperwork....)

Me if I absolutely had to live in the 40k verse I'd probably go with those human populations that have defected to the Tau. Technological advancement, an inclusive if not permissive social policy and so forth means their something like hope there. If the 'Nids and Chaos don't eat everything quick enough the Tau have a better outlook then anyone. Only crap FTL really holding them back.

Yeah, the Tau humans do have a nice setup. With newer fluff though, aren't the Tau a little indoctrination-happy? Not that the Imperium isn't, of course.

And yeah, the Culture has it better than the 40k universe. However, it seems much less exciting, and is certainly not without it's flaws.

[Oracle_Hunter]

That's not what he said. He said that in universe the Culture is a utopia and unless you are a fascist money-loving power junkie, or to put it another way, the only way you can be happy is if others are miserable, then you'll be happy. Why wouldn't you be?

Like I said, being "happy" isn't all I care about. Sure, I'd be physically content but I bet I'd be spiritually unsatisfied.

Of course, that means I must only be happy when others are miserable, no?

[Murska]

I've yet to hear what the alternative highest purpose of humanity is, if not doing whatever we want and choosing whatever purpose we wish?

[Oracle_Hunter]

I've yet to hear what the alternative highest purpose of humanity is, if not doing whatever we want and choosing whatever purpose we wish?

Ah, from an earlier post

@Aotrs Commander -- As I alluded to earlier, "great pursuits" are activities and objectives that require brains uniquely different (I would say higher) than animals. Art, Philosophy and Science are three broad categories but you can include other bits if you will.

In The Culture meatpuppets can do these sorts of things but there is no cause for them to do so -- the Minds can do it ever so much better. Seeing a meatpuppet as a "planner" or scientist in this society is much like seeing a dog fetch a beer from a cooler: it is impressive to see, but everyone knows that a different, more capable, species would be better suited to the task.

[Forum Explorer]

Like I said, being "happy" isn't all I care about. Sure, I'd be physically content but I bet I'd be spiritually unsatisfied.

Of course, that means I must only be happy when others are miserable, no?

You say you wouldn't be happy because the Minds are basically better then you in every way correct? But from what Tyndmyr has said you can augment yourself til you are a Mind. Therefore you would be happy!

Really the two of us should read at least one of these books. Off to the library!

[Soras Teva Gee]

Unless the Tau decide to quietly sterilize your entire population through your drinking water or something.

Yeah, I thought that was stupid too - a needless throw-in to make Tau as grimdark as everything else.

Nope, even accounting for that. Which says a lot about 40k and something about me.

Bah! That's nothing but Imperial Propaganda

More seriously I don't think that actually has been added in. Unless it's in the fluff of the new rulebook. Otherwise it remains mostly rumors and a fan-theory.

I *believe* it happened in one of the video games. But excepting where they originate the franchise I tend to treat video games as very low in canonical considerations.

And yeah, the Culture has it better than the 40k universe. However, it seems much less exciting, and is certainly not without it's flaws.

As long as you realize that "excitement" is overrated. Or rather what is exciting isn't reflected where it sometimes is thought it is. War is not "exciting" when its you being actually shot at or at least not enough to compensate for the negative traits of it.... and that in between 95/100 times its utterly boring while you do basic maintenance/drills endlessly and wait for something to happen.

I think most people at the end of the day find their desire for excitement is completely fulfill-able via more ostensibly frivolous activities. Sports anyone? Video games? Hunting, fishing, camping or anything you'd shop at Bass Pro Shops for? I find internet arguments perversely entertaining personally.

[Murska]

So, as you yourself mentioned, people can do all of that in the Culture. Again as you yourself mentioned, the real reason you're dissatisfied is that people aren't the best at it.

It's at least canon that humans can be equal to Minds in military strategy. Rare, genius humans, but still. It's also canon that people can augment their skills, intellect or any other attribute to the level of a Mind if they so choose. And it's already fact IRL that other people are going to be better than you at pretty much any field if they so choose, unless you happen to be the single best human being at something, which is exceptionally unlikely.

If the Minds were a product of natural evolution from a human brain, would that make them better? Or if they just were biological in nature, but otherwise the same? How about if the Minds were simply the most intelligent, genius human beings picked from a massive population at birth and brought up to lead? But the actual society would otherwise be exactly the same, as would the capabilities of the Minds in relation to most people?

[The Glyphstone]

Bah! That's nothing but Imperial Propaganda

More seriously I don't think that actually has been added in. Unless it's in the fluff of the new rulebook. Otherwise it remains mostly rumors and a fan-theory.

I think it was in one of the Deathwatch supplements dealing with the Tau, though at least they gave a 'might be true' disclaimer.

[Oracle_Hunter]

It's at least canon that humans can be equal to Minds in military strategy.

Really? That's awful writing

If a Mind has so much spare capacity that it uses the vast majority of its abilities on simulating hypothetical dimensions for fun, how can they possibly be inferior to meat that has a hard time understand the world around it? War, of all things, is best left to machines as far as strategy and even tactics go. Hell, a Mind should be able to simulate every possible state of a war (and several impossible ones!) if it can otherwise simulate entire ships full of people for realistic interaction.

What next? Are there genius people out there who are equal to minds when it comes to arithmetic? Or identifying prime numbers?

@Forum Explorer -- Again, I'd worry about losing my Humanity if I were "upgraded" to being a God-like Mind. Sure, it'd be fun to be on top but that is hardly a good criteria for determining whether a society is good or virtuous.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

So, as you yourself mentioned, people can do all of that in the Culture. Again as you yourself mentioned, the real reason you're dissatisfied is that people aren't the best at it.

Culture Minds are people too...

[Forum Explorer]

@Forum Explorer -- Again, I'd worry about losing my Humanity if I were "upgraded" to being a God-like Mind. Sure, it'd be fun to be on top but that is hardly a good criteria for determining whether a society is good or virtuous.

What is Humanity? Why would you lose it by become smarter?


And it isn't about being on top. It's about being smart enough to be able to comprehend the big questions so that you can actually learn new things.

Besides a society being 'good' or 'virtuous' is another issue that we have not yet tackled. To start what are your definitions of those two things?

[Murska]

Culture Minds are people too...

Humans. Whatever.

@^ Don't forget the key question: What is humanity?

[Selrahc]

Really? That's awful writing

Ehhh. The claim isn't that the human is as smart as a mind. The claim is that a human can comprehend and think on a level where they come up with similar *results*.

The premise is that there is a "right answer". Or at least, there is an answer that can be arrived at as optimal by sufficiently advanced intelligences, and that there are some humans good enough at warfare and tactics to be making almost identical decisions to minds even when faced with the hypercomplex problems of galactic scale warfare between post scarcity societies. If you can come up with the right answers, and you're all looking at the same questions, it doesn't matter if the other guy is smarter. He isn't going to be any more right.

[Tiki Snakes]

Yeah, I thought that was stupid too - a needless throw-in to make Tau as grimdark as everything else.

The whole point of the setting is that it is grimdark (and there is a lot of war.)
The idea of a faction who are unremittingly and uncomplicatedly the good guys just seems to be missing the point, really. I'm sure it's not a wild guess to say this is why some people have and/or had a problem with the Tau.

I'm not really sure where I stand on the Culture. There are things about it that make me uncomfortable, but likewise it is a Utopia and the average quality of life is pretty amazing.
I haven't read the books though, so I don't really have enough familiarity to go any further on the subject.

[Water_Bear]

The Culture is a society that views ubermenschen and loners as a perfectly normal and praised part of their society, so the parallels are already shaky.

Seeing as the entire point of the Overman is someone who rejects slave morality and epitomizes the Will to Power, I somewhat doubt the Culture would have much room for a genuine Overman. Without the ability to conquer or achieve in any meaningful way, and with a value system which is practically the definition of the Last Man, the Culture in fact seems like the complete antithesis of the idea of the Overman.

Unless you're saying the Minds themselves are the Overmen, which might be plausible. Their use of unearthly illusory rewards (simulations) for their slaves and voluntary acceptance of humility kind of jives with the concept, but their capabilities willingness to take action to achieve their goals and refusal to sublime fit the mold a lot more. Still I seriously doubt it.

Also, they prize individuality and drive-they simply think of everything as a hobby, so both raw decadence and SCIENCE! are both pleasures to be pursued.

That is the problem! That is exactly the issue here!

If everything is reduced to nihilistic pursuit of pleasure, if there is no meaning to your actions and you have no chance to express your Will to Power, that is what the Last Man is.

If you think that's a good thing, well, we have a somewhat impassable philosophical chasm in between us.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The whole point of the setting is that it is grimdark (and there is a lot of war.)
The idea of a faction who are unremittingly and uncomplicatedly the good guys just seems to be missing the point, really. I'm sure it's not a wild guess to say this is why some people have and/or had a problem with the Tau.

Oh the Tau could be the villains in any other setting without any extra help. Just that (aside from the Eldar) its pretty impossible to conceive of peace with any other faction, even if the Imperium would make peace. The conflict between the Imperium and the Tau is inherently less... gothic... then others since it leaves humanity with just xenophobia.

And people assuredly do have an issue with that.

[The Glyphstone]

The whole point of the setting is that it is grimdark (and there is a lot of war.)
The idea of a faction who are unremittingly and uncomplicatedly the good guys just seems to be missing the point, really. I'm sure it's not a wild guess to say this is why some people have and/or had a problem with the Tau.

I'm not really sure where I stand on the Culture. There are things about it that make me uncomfortable, but likewise it is a Utopia and the average quality of life is pretty amazing.
I haven't read the books though, so I don't really have enough familiarity to go any further on the subject.

See, I always thought it made the setting a little better with them around, in a 'can't have shadows without light' sort of way - having the Tau around as the closest thing the setting had to 'good guys', even if they were still mildly racist space commies, only helped emphasize how rotten the rest of the universe was - and in reverse, seeing the universe as a whole just made it more obvious how incredibly screwed the Tau were in the grand scope of things. Turning the Greater Good philosophy into a sham front for genocide devalued them into just another generic bunch of nasty xenos.

Or maybe it's because I play a Guard mechanized regiment modeled and painted as Tau human auxiliaries....not sure.

[Tiki Snakes]

There being no good guys always seemed the point to me. The Imperium being dark, twisted and merciless enough to be the villain in other settings, but being so at least partly because they had to be. Inserting a faction of scientific advance, friendship and light into the setting does make the darkness of the setting darker, but when the selling point was previously that it was a greyscale mishmash of different factions doing occaisionally horrible things to survive, that doesn't seem like anything other than a radical change.

To amend the phrase, can't have shadows without light. But light creates shadows.

If the Tau are greyscale, with secret atrocities or existing soley as part of some other more powerful factions diabolical plans, then they can exist quite happily alongside the existing factions. But if they really are everything they were said to be at first, genuinely nice, interested only in the greater good, with technology surpassing their foes and immune to the corrupting influence of the warp then to a large degree they undermine the existing factions.

I suppose there is a third option to reconsile the two without turning the previously grey factions into mere darkside villains. Play up the small size and naivety, with the young Tau Empire facing the horrors of the setting and having to either compromise on their ideals or deal with the horrifying consequences. That's not the direction GW is taking though, far as I see.

[Brother Oni]

Is there actually any evidence of The Culture being reprimanded or even balked by any other civilization out there? And I mean more than temporarily.

There are a number of ascended civilisations/beings that are more powerful than the Culture. They mostly spend their time doing whatever ascended beings do but some of them don't approve of the Culture, which is when the Culture has to ask other ascended civilisations/beings to intercede nicely on their behalf so they don't get wiped off the face of the universe.

In more detail, the Excession, which the Culture has classed as an Outside Context Problem.
The best analogy I can think of, is the Romans and Pompeii eruption - they have virtually no frame of reference of what it is or how to deal with it.

Please go and read one of the books and give it a fair try - you have a lot of misconceptions about the series that would be cleared up quite quickly.
If you still find it repulsive, then that's fair enough; at least you're making an informed decision.

Personally, I think you're so opposed to the Culture because you don't like the idea of machine Minds replacing organic beings as rulers (your placing of mortal beings in charge of planets/orbitals/spheres is a prime example).
Suppose for sake of argument, I replaced 'machine' with 'ethnic minority' and you'd get an idea of how ridiculous and biased your concerns would sound to your average Culture citizen.

I am not accusing you of anything, just highlighting how ridiculous your arguments and objections would sound.


With regard to the potential 'loss of humanity' when undergoing the conversion to a Mind, the brain is a set of neurons and synaptic pathways connected in a particular pattern.
Given sufficiently advanced technology, it would be reasonable to assume that this pattern could be perfectly copied and hence digitised as data.
Any perceived loss of 'humanity' would be most likely due to the personal attachment of an intangible value or force to your mind, more commonly called a 'soul'.

Board rules prevent me from elaborating further, but I would disagree with you on this concept.

[Urpriest]

Any perceived loss of 'humanity' would be most likely due to the personal attachment of an intangible value or force to your mind, more commonly called a 'soul'.

Board rules prevent me from elaborating further, but I would disagree with you on this concept.

Eh see, while that's probably part of Oracle's reasoning, I don't think it's all of it. Oracle was very careful to mention ridiculously short lifespans (not just terms, lifespans!) for politicians. I think Oracle believes that Humanity is fundamentally tied to Mortality. Which...means there aren't really any legitimately Human people in the Culture anyway, citizen or Mind.

[Leliel]

Seeing as the entire point of the Overman is someone who rejects slave morality and epitomizes the Will to Power, I somewhat doubt the Culture would have much room for a genuine Overman. Without the ability to conquer or achieve in any meaningful way, and with a value system which is practically the definition of the Last Man, the Culture in fact seems like the complete antithesis of the idea of the Overman.

...You haven't actually read the books, have you? Or actually understand what Slave Morality is.

The Culture, at its core, is a society of Master Moralists, if anything. Your intentions are your own, but they see suffering and the forcing of a way of life on other people as Bad, no matter how well-intentioned you are. Whether or not they're right is a matter of whether you view imperialism as Always Bad, All The Time, but to the Culture, consequences matter more than intentions. That is Master Morality, not Slave Morality.

Unless you're saying the Minds themselves are the Overmen, which might be plausible. Their use of unearthly illusory rewards (simulations) for their slaves and voluntary acceptance of humility kind of jives with the concept, but their capabilities willingness to take action to achieve their goals and refusal to sublime fit the mold a lot more. Still I seriously doubt it.

No True Scotsman alert!

Really, that just seems like a societal role for the Overman, which is really quite brilliant-you can't beat the charismatic, self-assured leader, so create a role for him that won't rock the boat too much and threaten a revolution.



That is the problem! That is exactly the issue here!

If everything is reduced to nihilistic pursuit of pleasure, if there is no meaning to your actions and you have no chance to express your Will to Power, that is what the Last Man is.

...

You know, I have a habit of referring to youtube videos when my disgust for a line of reasoning or "logic" is too much to be put into words. I am, however, afraid of the video drawing irate people who type like this and infraction points, so I won't.

Instead, I will say:

Nihilist. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

If you think that's a good thing, well, we have a somewhat impassable philosophical chasm in between us.

Okay, let's define nihilist, shall we? Or more accurately, moral nihilism, which is what you seem to be using.

Moral nihilism
Moral nihilism, also known as ethical nihilism, is the meta-ethical view that morality does not exist as something inherent to objective reality; therefore no action is necessarily preferable to any other. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is not inherently right or wrong. Other nihilists may argue not that there is no morality at all, but that if it does exist, it is a human and thus artificial construction, wherein any and all meaning is relative for different possible outcomes. As an example, if someone kills someone else, such a nihilist might argue that killing is not inherently a bad thing, bad independently from our moral beliefs, only that because of the way morality is constructed as some rudimentary dichotomy, what is said to be a bad thing is given a higher negative weighting than what is called good: as a result, killing the individual was bad because it did not let the individual live, which was arbitrarily given a positive weighting. In this way a moral nihilist believes that all moral claims are false.

And for a twofer, how about existential nihilism?

Existential nihilism
Existential nihilism is the belief that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. With respect to the universe, existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without purpose and unlikely to change in the totality of existence. The meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism.

This is not the Culture. The Culture has a very strong sense of morality and belief in the meaning of life. They just don't claim that their way of life is better than any other to the point of imposing it. That is, in fact, political nihilism. The good kind, in other words, because that allows for things like free will and national sovereignty.

So...nihilistic?

Hell no. They actually look for meaning in life, hence, they are by definition, not nihilistic.

Also, the Last Man is a parasite, not a freeloader. A true nihilist, who doesn't have any meaning or desire any, with no contribution to society. Again, not the Culture. Not hardly. There's a reason why organisations like Special Circumstances exist. And the reason that, uh, the Culture hasn't dissolved yet, since all rules are actually social conventions and obligations.

[Excession]

Looking at The Culture more thoroughly I still find it great, but I absolutely despise its foreign policy:

It has no right to meddle in the affairs of other species. If they wan't help: sure. If they are about to destroy themselfes: OK.

But otherwise NO! Its not right! Its not their right to play god with the lives of others unless they wan't them too.

It sounds like you'd side with the Peace Faction. They are the large minority that split from the Culture and gave up the Culture's foreign policy around the start of the Idiran war. It was, to some degree, that war that cemented the Culture's policy of interference. If it makes you feel any better about it, the Minds believe they can prove that, overall, their interference is a positive gain. Also, the Minds and people of SC come across as the most critical of their own interference.

The decision to go to war was one of the Big Decisions that went to a vote of everyone in the Culture. That's everyone, Minds, Drones, and organic life forms. Even after they lost, a big minority split off as the Peace Faction, and other smaller factions left then and leave all the time.

I would recommend Look to Windward as perhaps the best book for getting a handle on everyday life in the Culture. It's very introspective, and covers some things like the meaning of artistic expression and individual contribution within the Culture.

[comicshorse]

Jeez you go out and have a life for a few hours ( ok I went to a Roleplaying game) and the debate whizzes past you

So just to say

Except that Minds direct the actions of SC and will even dragoon unwilling individuals to serving its goals.

Again not 'robot overlords'. Minds do not 'dragoon' people into SC ( at least in the 8 novels I've read). People have to work damn hard to get into SC on the grounds if you're messing with other civilizations you should have the smartest and best people doing it

[thorgrim29]

Actually, to play devil's advocate here:

(player of games spoiler)

Spoiler

Show

Gurgeh was totally dragooned into joining SC, they preyed on his pride and used that to blackmail him. Did he end up a better person for it? Sure, but he ws still nearly press gagned into service

And I had a post on how Water Bear seems to confuse Nietzche and Rand, but the bords ate it and I don't feel like writing it after Leliel did it much better, so let's just say I agree with leliel.

Also, to "get" the culture, you have to accept that, at least in that universe (yeah forum rules loopholes), the soul is not a thing, suffering is not the lot of Man, dying before you've accomplished everything you want to/are bored is bad, and machines are just as sentient as organics. Most of the drones in the culture are what they call 1:1 intelligences, they are roughly as smart and sentient as the organic citizens of the culture, they have emotions, everything, only they have metal bodies.

[comicshorse]

AArgh ! Ages since I read the book. Wasn't he blackmailed by his drone friend without SC's knowledge ?

[Renegade Paladin]

Jeez you go out and have a life for a few hours ( ok I went to a Roleplaying game) and the debate whizzes past you

So just to say



Again not 'robot overlords'. Minds do not 'dragoon' people into SC ( at least in the 8 novels I've read). People have to work damn hard to get into SC on the grounds if you're messing with other civilizations you should have the smartest and best people doing it

If you understand where he's apparently arguing from, it actually makes internal sense. You see, it's a circular argument; he sees the Culture's humans as meatpuppets of the Minds, therefore anything the humans do is a priori dictated by the Minds, since they are puppets. Therefore, if a human does something he is dragooned into it by the Minds since the Minds control the humans.

Which is not the case, but nine pages hasn't gotten that across, so I doubt more is going to do the trick.

[thorgrim29]

AArgh ! Ages since I read the book. Wasn't he blackmailed by his drone friend without SC's knowledge ?

Spoiler

Show

actually his friend the "decommissionned contact drone that committed suicide" is revealed in the epilogue to be the narrator and his drone adviser/bodyguard, so the player of games was totally played.