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2015-01-13, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
I guess golem makes more sense than undead anyhow, if it is Bozzok behind this. Bozzok is smart enough to know (via Haley's treacherous uncle, if nothing else) that Haley is travelling with a high level cleric now, which pretty much can neutralize any undead threat that Bozzok can afford to have created.
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2015-01-13, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Vancouver, BC, Canada
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2015-01-13, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
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2015-01-13, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2015-01-13, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Lost in the Hinterlands
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Giggling Ghast; 2015-01-13 at 03:56 PM.
A father taken by time, a brother dead by my own hand.
With this work behold my grief, in Stone and shifting sand.
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2015-01-13, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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2015-01-13, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
Should try not to make assumptions -- I'm old as dirt and a long-time Ally: have been since the days when that meant a strong likelihood of getting the crap kicked out of you. That said, the answer is: because I was curious. And that's all the answer that should ever be required. Nobody should ever require another person's approval in order to exercise their curiosity.
But to give the question more respect than it's due, I'm an archaelogist and historian and issues of artistic representation interest me. I looked into it primarily because of the curved-vs-lego-butt observation made previously. I was curious regarding the Giant's artistic style when it comes to both representing elves, and whether anything could be read into, say, V line vs. scoop neck for tunics. I find the notion of stick-figuring (as done here, on XKCD, and other places), really interesting, and have been looking to develop my own style of doing so which would be flexible enough to be viable, but also personal enough not to simply be cribbing another person's work.
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2015-01-13, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
HOWEVER, there's an angle within our typical wild-ass speculation that works here -- if Haley double-crossed the Guild, then she gets no credit for taking care of the renegade Loki figure, and the Grubwiggler issue remains a reputational problem. However, the Guild could approach the Loki clerics and pin Haley's behavior as having worked with the renegade Loki priest, saying "this is on you -- fix it." Grubwiggler's back in action and now owes the Guild a favor.
No more likely than any other option, and I'm always wrong about these things. But there are plenty of angles besides coin.
Edit: hrm. In retrospect, my crackpot theory makes less sense than usual. But essentially, the Church of Loki, Grubwiggler, and the Guild can all arguably be said to have gotten played by Haley. Some sort of mutual cooperation on that front seems plausible.Last edited by happycrow; 2015-01-13 at 04:15 PM.
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2015-01-13, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
Making a bone golem out of Roy's corpse involved casting spells, but that also involved animating the golem with and earth elemental spirit bound to Grubwiggler's control. Since Crystal's memories and opinions seem to be there in some form, it's possible that the spellcasting step would be unnecessary.
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2015-01-13, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
Not seeing the Newspeakiness.
One quote was about a bisexual character (Haley).
One quote was about a gay character (Bandana).
In English, while some may refer to a bisexual person as "gay" in informal discussion, in the context of a discussion of inclusiveness and/or of a person's specific sexual preferences, the two terms are not synonyms.
That being said, the above is evidence (if anyone was wondering) that Rich considers Bandana to be gay, not bi.Last edited by allenw; 2015-01-13 at 04:27 PM.
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2015-01-13, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2014
Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
I would argue that this is likely the most important reason in-universe. As near as I can tell, the other reasons revolve around the pervasiveness and acceptability of bisexuality and similar phenomena within entertainment and societies as a whole. Things that are not unimportant in and of themselves, but of little relevance to the storyline. It ultimately comes down to how detached from reality a given viewer sees the comic. Art will always imitate life to a greater or lesser extent, but not everything is a political commentary on current events or issues.
As for my opinions on the matter (because someone obviously must have asked), it's good to see homosexual and bisexual characters portrayed in media of entertainment. That being said, I'm not a fan of authors introducing a character of a particular demographic entirely for the purpose of having that demographic represented, but (to me) it doesn't look like that that is what The Giant has done here.
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2015-01-13, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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2015-01-13, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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2015-01-13, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Keltest; 2015-01-13 at 05:10 PM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2015-01-13, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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- Ukraine
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
Sometimes "gay" is used as a synonym to queer, at least in the tumblr queer community. I have seen asexual people refer to themselves as "hella gay", just as an antonym to "straight".
You might be thinking about /adding/ unimportant characters to serves as token minority, which really is a thing to not be a fan of. There's nothing wrong with just making characters with different sexualities, genders, ethnicities, skin color, hair color, etc for no other reason that that's how different they are in real life and you want your work to reflect it much the same way as you'd prefer it to reflect the rules of perspective of human visual perception, anatomical principles etc. There is some baseline level of realism that even the most fantastical works need to meet in order to have some relevance to the viewer.Last edited by Liliet; 2015-01-13 at 05:53 PM.
ava by me
Where the hell have you been?
Yes, sadly.
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2015-01-13, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2014
Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
This is almost exactly what I meant, though I wasn't referring only to minor characters. One thing I have also seen happen occasionally, though I can't speak for how common it is, is suddenly establishing some for of queerness to pay some form of lip service to equality. In a recent book that I read, one of the chapters established one of the characters as being homosexual. This fact wasn't referenced at all outside of this chapter, and it did nothing to add to the depth of the character. It's not exactly a token character, as the reveal took place in the back half of the book, and wasn't touched upon, but an author attempting to shoehorn social justice into an art piece in this fashion is not something I appreciate (As mentioned before, I'm not implying that this is what is happening in OotS).
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2015-01-13, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
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- Gainesville, GA
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
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2015-01-13, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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- Ukraine
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
What exactly does being one or the other sexual orientation have to add to the depth of the character? Why can't mogai people simply /be/? Just exist? Sort of like how Roy's skin color has no relevance to his character anywhere, at all. Do you view his, Durkon's, Sabine's appearance as "shoehorning social justice"?
(it also evades me just what exactly is wrong with putting justice in places it didn't used to be btw)
This is probably getting off-topic and we should probably continue this in private messages, though.Last edited by Liliet; 2015-01-13 at 05:58 PM.
ava by me
Where the hell have you been?
Yes, sadly.
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2015-01-13, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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- Wisconsin, USA
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
After previous threads, seeing the word "relevance," which was repeated in them to the point of inducing madness, is enough to get me ready to break out my ego whip and id insinuation ...
Spoiler
So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark
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2015-01-13, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Meridianville AL
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
It's largely irrelevant. The easiest way to deal with DR X/obscure material is to take a magical two handed weapon, belt of giant strength, and power attack for 10 or so and blow right through the DR.
Thog power attack for 1d12+567 damage makes 5-15 DR look pretty minor by comparison.
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2015-01-13, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2012
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- Hey, look! Squirrels!
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
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2015-01-13, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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2015-01-13, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2015-01-13, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
We might be eliminating revenant a bit hastily here--this is from the classic D&D description that originally appeared in the Fiend Folio:
http://www.padnd.com/monster_manual/mm00250.php
Although it is undead, the revenant is motivated entirely by self-will. Therefore, as it is not inherently evil, it is not affected by holy water, holy/unholy symbols, or other religious paraphernalia. It cannot be turned by priests nor can it be raised or resurrected.
Bandana has no way of knowing this unless she's heard of revenants, so the fact that she views the holy water test as definitive doesn't mean much. Also:
The revenant's body does decay, though at a slower rate than normal. Within three to six months, the corpse decomposes rapidly and the revenant's spirit returns to the plane from which it came.
Which is consistent with Haley's reaction to the smell.
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2015-01-13, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by The Giant
1.) Because "gay" does not mean "bi." It can include bi, in some uses, but it is not necessarily inclusive of the whole LGBTAI+ universe. It is entirely appropriate to use the word "gay" to exclusively refer to solely homosexual characters, which is what I was doing in the second (older) quote. Bandana is gay; Haley is not.
2.) And it should have been obvious that I was using the word in that manner, because the comic has had an openly bisexual character for a long time—Sabine. One can argue whether or not she's an especially positive portrayal, but she's definitely there.
3.) Because even if you choose to deliberately ignore the two above points, the context of that conversation included the idea put forth by many people that Haley wasn't obviously bisexual—that the clues from the comic were ambiguous, that it could mean anything, that it wasn't representy enough to count as representation. There were people saying that exact thing on this very thread! So my statement was intended to include the idea that while I may have put a bisexual character into the comic, I did not do so in a way that was obvious to everyone, and that is part of what I was fixing.
I don't think I have any special proficiency in tackling this, but I also think that you have it a bit backwards (or sideways, at least). Being a successful man in a historically male-oriented genre is what gives me the freedom to tackle an issue like representation. It's why anyone is listening in the first place, sadly. If I was not a man, people wouldn't believe me; if I was unsuccessful, they wouldn't care; and if I was pursuing a more traditionally woman- or LGBT-friendly genre, I would be preaching to the choir.
But I'm in the unique position of having an audience comprised of a large percentage of people that may be somewhat unaccustomed to this message at the exact time in history when there are also enough people who already support the message to cushion any financial fallout from speaking my mind. I can afford to lose the readers who would ragequit over it, to be blunt, and better to lose them because of something I really believe in than because of my crappy update frequency. Frankly, I'll never notice the difference between a lost reader because I included queer representation and a lost reader because I didn't deliver their calendar on time, so why not say what needs to be said? Plus, I mean, people totally lost their **** when I suggested maybe we shouldn't have stats for baby dragons in the Monster Manual, and this is way more important an issue than that.
Basically, I have the social privilege that allows me to be heard and now I have the commercial success to weather the consequences thereof, so therefore I have a responsibility to say something. To do otherwise would be self-serving cowardice.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2015-01-13, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2015-01-13, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2006
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- Melbourne, Victoria, Aust
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
I had always read her as bisexual, regardless of the erasure on the forums, and I am bi myself, so I am profoundly glad that you have stated it outright. Thank you for this representation.
I also want to thank Liliet for her posts in this thread. I hope people who didn't already know how bad biphobia and bi erasure can get have an idea of it now.
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2015-01-13, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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2015-01-13, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Here.
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Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
1. I love The Giant.
2. I tend to avoid using "gay" to describe same-gender attraction unless the person in question is exclusively attracted to the same gender for this exact reason. I know not everyone is comfortable reclaiming "queer," but this type of semantics crap is confusing at best and outright bi erasure at worst. I'm not gay, I'm bi.
3. Before I read through this whole debacle of a debate, I did want to comment on how I thought Haley openly referring to her attraction to women showed some nice character growth compared to her earlier "EVERYTHING IS A SECRET" issues, and I'm pleased to see it confirmed that it was indeed an example of that. We need subtle little moments like that mixed in with the more obvious character growth moments. Belkar worrying over Bloodfeast. Haley casually referring to something she'd kept a closely guarded secret. Vaarsuvius taking a more active voice after returning from Hell to save the Order. Change is a series of little moments as much as it is big, dramatic events.
4. Flesh golem, huh? I had thought the Revenant theorists were onto something, but obviously not so much. I wonder if we'll get more detail as to why she seems to have retained a sense of self, or if we're just gonna leave it at "homebrewed"? I'm fine either way, just curious if there might be any plot relevance to the "why" beyond "it makes for better drama."
5. I laughed entirely too hard at "she's obviously a crystal golem," so cookies for you lot.Last edited by DaggerPen; 2015-01-13 at 09:35 PM.
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2015-01-13, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
Re: OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread
I quite adore this post, and appreciate your attitude & recognition of privilege. We all need more of this in the world. All art is political--it's just that when someone creates normative-oriented stuff, the politics get ignored by most of the population. Many creators with a lot of privilege ignore the fact that they're benefiting from that privilege, and that their art carries tacit politics whether they intend to address issues of representation of not.
Thinking about the section of the post I've quoted--while I agree that the benefits of privilege are sizable & must be recognized, there's no way of knowing what would have happened if you'd been (for instance) a woman, and created something like OotS. I'm heartened that folks like Kate Beaton and Anita Sarkeesian are also able to find success (though the latter is a strong example of just how much venom a woman may have to put up with for things a man could say with much less personal risk).Last edited by Bird; 2015-01-13 at 10:07 PM.