LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

[Kindablue]

Ted Haggard supports gay marriage.

"It might be easy to write Ted Haggard off as a joke, but now that he agrees with us, let's listen to what he has to say."

[Irish Musician]

You must have changed... in the 19th century, Irishmen couldn't be seconds to duellants because part of the second's job was to negotiate a peaceful solution. The Irish were known for their bloodthirstyness and could not be trusted to really strive for a peaceful way out.

What the hell are you talking about..........I'LL BEAT YOU TO A BLOODY PULP!!!!





~Matthew~

[Asta Kask]

Well I certainly think we should make the journey to the Light Side as easy as possible.

This is an enormous step and I must say that my respect for the man increased considerably. From a non-existent level, true, but still... I'm sure he'll be very pleased with that.

[Coidzor]

"It might be easy to write Ted Haggard off as a joke, but now that he agrees with us, let's listen to what he has to say."

I took an entirely different reading from that. They seem to be saying to note how even this person who previously seemed to be a diehard foe is changing his position. Rather, than, say, loving on or accepting him in any way.

[Lentrax]

Actually my first thought was "Yay! Boobs!"

They're not big but they're there.

Yeah, they're there. I just umm...

I like the shoes better.

[Irish Musician]

I like the shoes better.

I don't understand the thing that I am reading......

~Matthew~

[Coidzor]

On another note: Anyone heard about Nancy Chodorow's theories about gender in western culture? My Psychology homework mention them, and they seem really interesting. ^_^

Essentially, the idea is that the old (and still somewhat present) model of mother-as-caretaker, father-as-absent-money-maker, affects how children express their gender identities. In part due to how the mother may unconsciously treat seemingly male children as different and seemingly female ones as similar, in part because the children themselves would identify with the parent closest to their idea of self.
The male-identified children would try to look at the father as whom to mimic, but the father was often absent and became a symbol of the non-home environment and distancing, while the mother (seen as a symbol of care and closeness) would be the model of what not to be. essentially, the male-identified children would often define their masculinity by fearing or rejecting closeness to to those seen as female and in general identify with being different from the mother. The female-identified children would, by contrast, identify with the mother, attachment and would not be as divided between the parents as the male-identified.

I am not so sure that the theory is very universal or still as relevant as it was, but it struck me as a very good partial explanation for some of the patriarchal cultural aspects. How the culture often regards masculinity as something to be proved and never to get near "feminine" traits, while femininity is less insecure but also heavily associated with parenthood and nurturing.

Anyone have thoughts on it?

Sounds like it contains a healthy daily value of horse considering that not loving one's mother is simply not an option because it is so scandalous and from all I've been able to gather is taken as marking one as inhuman. They might be onto something, but I very much doubt they have the whole picture, as that level of rejection would stunt the capacity for love.

The socio-economic levels of people are probably going to make it all wonky as well, at least from what I recall of the character of my peers when I was a boy.

[Lentrax]

I don't understand the thing that I am reading......

People Parts don't matter to me. People are people, and while one is different from the other, I don't mind how they are organized.

I love everyone(almost) and how they present themselves to everyone else.

I know. I'm weird.

[Irish Musician]

People are people, and while one is different from the other
I love everyone(almost) and how they present themselves to everyone else.

I know. I'm weird.

Though I do love people parts, I also agree with this. People are people and whomever they are and in whatever form, they are wonderful. Including yourself. You aren't weird......you are just you

~Matthew~

[Coidzor]

Maybe we should check to see if Zorg is really comfortable with the tenor of this conversation before we continue on?

[Irish Musician]

Maybe we should check to see if Zorg is really comfortable with the tenor of this conversation before we continue on?

Should we make it more of a soprano or alto?

~Matthew~

[Kindablue]

I took an entirely different reading from that. They seem to be saying to note how even this person who previously seemed to be a diehard foe is changing his position. Rather, than, say, loving on or accepting him in any way.

Anyone who still follows the word of Ted Haggard is already very forgiving and tolerant. I don't see how this is a "milestone," unless they just meant for him personally, which is not how, "he was the leader of the National Association of Evangelicals and is still a pastor, of sorts, and in connection with that community. His statement is a bit of a milestone," reads to me.

[KenderWizard]

Hopefully much more than that, you could surpass everybody and make them have to follow along! ^_^

That's the plan! Well, that's the hope. And not just my hope, it's a goal for the LGBT+ activists and supporters in Ireland to push Ireland ahead of the pack.

You must have changed... in the 19th century, Irishmen couldn't be seconds to duellants because part of the second's job was to negotiate a peaceful solution. The Irish were known for their bloodthirstyness and could not be trusted to really strive for a peaceful way out.

Funnily enough, in the 19th century, being racist (? culturist?) against the Irish wasn't so much a hobby as a requirement for polite British and British-influenced society.

Actually, this is still a common slur against us. When Katie Taylor won a gold medal for boxing this year in the Olympics (first time women's boxing was included!) (YAY KATIE!!) there was lots of "Ah, should have known the Irish would win 'cause they're good at nothing but drinking and fighting and there's no drinking Olympics" in both British and American coverage.

[Lentrax]

Maybe we should check to see if Zorg is really comfortable with the tenor of this conversation before we continue on?

What if we just move it up an octave?

[Coidzor]

Anyone who still follows the word of Ted Haggard is already very forgiving and tolerant. I don't see how this is a "milestone," unless they just meant for him personally, which is not how, "he was the leader of the National Association of Evangelicals and is still a pastor, of sorts, and in connection with that community. His statement is a bit of a milestone," reads to me.

Personally I don't concern myself with that area of American life, so I could only assume he must have at least had some kind of unsavory past with regards to personal bigotry and encouraging bigotry in others that this stands in contrast to.

If your information is correct then it still doesn't seem to be an endorsement to listen to the man and rather just seems utterly non sequitur.

Should we make it more of a soprano or alto?

~Matthew~

Poor form. Also ignores that there are indeed women who are tenors.

What if we just move it up an octave?

I'm always a fan of more poetry in my life, and everyone knows you can only discuss the character of a lady's face while she's present in verse.

[Irish Musician]

Poor form. Also ignores that there are indeed women who are tenors.

But.....but you said tenor wasn't what we wanted!

~Matthew~

[Coidzor]

But.....but you said tenor wasn't what we wanted!

~Matthew~

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No, I said maybe we shouldn't be discussing Zorg's bust much further without making sure that we're not making her uncomfortable. Maybe I missed that conversation and I'm just being unduly cautious because Zorg has already given the greenlight.

[Arti3]

Uhm... So I'm in a relationship now! And so far it's made me happier than I can remember in a long time. Uhm, any tips?

[Irish Musician]

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No, I said maybe we shouldn't be discussing Zorg's bust much further without making sure that we're not making her uncomfortable. Maybe I missed that conversation and I'm just being unduly cautious because Zorg has already given the greenlight.

Spoiler

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No, you are fine. I was just making a pun with the tenor, soprano, alto thing. Wasn't meaning to cause offense. Apologies if I did.

~Matthew~

[Lentrax]

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No, I said maybe we shouldn't be discussing Zorg's bust much further without making sure that we're not making her uncomfortable. Maybe I missed that conversation and I'm just being unduly cautious because Zorg has already given the greenlight.

I don't know, I'm just kinda goin' with the flow.

Zorg, sweetie, just give the word and we will knock it off. I know what has happened is hard. I really do. So I know you may need us to step back.

Let us know. Either way, we are here for you!

[Irish Musician]

Uhm... So I'm in a relationship now! And so far it's made me happier than I can remember in a long time. Uhm, any tips?

Communication, Communication, Communication......this very much helps everything. Good Communication, anyway, not sniping at each other and attacking each other. Try to give the benefit of the doubt and do your best to trust them. Don't be completely gullible, but also don't be paranoid. There is a nice middle ground there somewhere, just takes time to find it. And don't rush things. Things will happen when they happen, and just go the speed both of you are comfortable with.

That is all atm. Take it or leave it. Probably isn't all that good advise anyway

I don't know, I'm just kinda goin' with the flow.

Zorg, sweetie, just give the word and we will knock it off. I know what has happened is hard. I really do. So I know you may need us to step back.

Let us know. Either way, we are here for you!

Verily Seconded fair Maiden! Thou shalt feel the warmth of our comfort folding around thine self. For we are, at present and always, here as support for thou.

~Matthew~

[noparlpf]

Funnily enough, in the 19th century, being racist (? culturist?) against the Irish wasn't so much a hobby as a requirement for polite British and British-influenced society.

Actually, this is still a common slur against us. When Katie Taylor won a gold medal for boxing this year in the Olympics (first time women's boxing was included!) (YAY KATIE!!) there was lots of "Ah, should have known the Irish would win 'cause they're good at nothing but drinking and fighting and there's no drinking Olympics" in both British and American coverage.

Yeah, we just hit the mid-1800s in my US History class and the prof mentioned the anti-Irish riots and stuff. For a "nation of immigrants", America has rarely been particularly welcoming of immigrants. It's sad.

[Coidzor]

Uhm... So I'm in a relationship now! And so far it's made me happier than I can remember in a long time. Uhm, any tips?

Well, communication is key. Hints don't work. The Relationship Woes and Advice has some handy stuff in its OP and Serpentine may have some useful links about particular topics though I don't think those are in her signature anymore.

[Kindablue]

That is all atm. Take it or leave it. Probably isn't all that good advise anyway

I thought that was well said. Or, uh, written.

Yeah, we just hit the mid-1800s in my US History class and the prof mentioned the anti-Irish riots and stuff. For a "nation of immigrants", America has rarely been particularly welcoming of immigrants. It's sad.

If it makes you feel any better about the country, most of that hatred and resistance is doubted by historians to have actually existed.

[Lady Serpentine]

They might be onto something, but I very much doubt they have the whole picture, as that level of rejection would stunt the capacity for love.

Sometimes, maybe. Not always. And I find it somewhat disturbing that you think so, honestly. I know several people who not only don't love, but actively dislike, their mothers, whether said mother is only the one responsible for bearing them (my cousin, who effectively became my adoptive sister), or the one who raised them as well (my other sister, of sorts (she's actually someone I met on another site, but who I've since basically adopted as part of my family (and if you disagree with the premise that I'm as close to her as I would be a "real" sister, I'd like to ask just what evidence you have for saying that I'm not)), and a very close friend), because their mothers are terrible people. It doesn't seem to have stunted their capacity for love in the least.

[Mono Vertigo]

Well, communication is key. Hints don't work.

This. This is the key. Be blunt. Keep subtlety for minor stuff that you are certain won't upset you should your partner not get it.
Bluntness. It's good.
I should know, I'm an oblivious moron. And they say girls are obsessed with obnoxious mind games.

[noparlpf]

I thought that was well said. Or, uh, written.


If it makes you feel any better about the country, most of that hatred and resistance is doubted by historians to have actually existed.

So something more like the level of sentiment in the US today than actual riots and lynchings?

[Kindablue]

So something more like the level of sentiment in the US today than actual riots and lynchings?

There were riots, it's just that most people didn't care and didn't feel any differently about the Irish than they did any other kind of European. Most of the people who did care hated the newcomers because they competed for the same jobs, and not because they thought the Irish were an inferior people not capable of anything except making more Irish.

[KenderWizard]

Uhm... So I'm in a relationship now! And so far it's made me happier than I can remember in a long time. Uhm, any tips?

Cuddle and talk! Enjoy it, do what feels good and don't do anything that doesn't feel good.

Yeah, we just hit the mid-1800s in my US History class and the prof mentioned the anti-Irish riots and stuff. For a "nation of immigrants", America has rarely been particularly welcoming of immigrants. It's sad.

If it makes you feel any better about the country, most of that hatred and resistance is doubted by historians to have actually existed.

Huh, interesting stuff. I don't know much about historical discrimination in the US. Every now and then I hear something about how black people were treated and I'm gobsmacked! Anyway, it is generally considered that one faces less discrimination in the States and Australia than in Britain. But then, you'll always find other Irish, no matter where you go. We're a bit like Kender that way.

In LGBT+ terms, does it help to find other people? If you moved to a new country, or I guess a new town for those of you in big countries, would you seek out LGBT+ people specifically?

[golentan]

Huh, interesting stuff. I don't know much about historical discrimination in the US. Every now and then I hear something about how black people were treated and I'm gobsmacked!

Our nation has much to repent for.

In other news, I just got introduced to John Corvino's youtube videos, and I have to say .

He has a strong moral judgment and a dry wit that complement each other well.