[3.5] Warlocks and actions

[Grushvak]

I must have missed something because I could not find the answer to these questions anywhere in Complete Arcane.

1. What type of action does an Eldritch Blast count as? I only read it described as an attack. Does this mean a warlock can use a full attack to throw more than one EB in a single round?
2. Blast Shapes and Eldritch Essence invocations: how are they cast? I know Invocations are typically standard actions, but the wording leads me to believe they are free actions that can be made when throwing an Eldritch Blast. Am I wrong in this assumption? Do you actually have to spend one standard action to cast Sickening Blast, and then only be able to throw the modified Eldritch Blast on the next round?
3. Can you apply more than one Eldritch Essence or Blast Shape invocation to a single Eldritch Blast?

Once again, I'm sorry if these questions are already answered in the book, but for the life of me, I couldn't find anything regarding this in the warlock ability descriptions.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Standard Action to toss an invocation, including EB.

You can apply Essences and Shapes to an EB as free actions.

Each individual EB can get 1 essence, 1 shape.

[Grushvak]

Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid

Standard Action to toss an invocation, including EB.

You can apply Essences and Shapes to an EB as free actions.

Each individual EB can get 1 essence, 1 shape.

Well that was fast. Thanks a lot.

[TheCountAlucard]

So you know, we've actually got a thread for this.

[Boci]

One quick and dirty fix for warlock it to allow them to full attack with eldritch blast. May not be required in a low powered game.

[Dimers]

Originally Posted by Grushvak

What type of action does an Eldritch Blast count as? I only read it described as an attack. Does this mean a warlock can use a full attack to throw more than one EB in a single round?

More specifically, it's a standard action because it's a spell-like ability. Those are always standard actions that don't provoke attacks of opportunity unless otherwise indicated. An eldritch blast does still provoke attacks, but that's because it's also a ranged attack, not due to the ability itself. An eldritch blast shaped with hideous blow doesn't provoke.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Originally Posted by Dimers

An eldritch blast does still provoke attacks, but that's because it's also a ranged attack, not due to the ability itself. An eldritch blast shaped with hideous blow doesn't provoke.

No, it's because of this statement in Complete Arcane right below "Invocations". Ranged attacking has little to do with it.

A warlock’s invocations are spell-like abilities; using an invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity

The train of logic there is a little flawed, but the intent IMO is obvious.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Originally Posted by Dimers

More specifically, it's a standard action because it's a spell-like ability. Those are always standard actions that don't provoke attacks of opportunity unless otherwise indicated. An eldritch blast does still provoke attacks, but that's because it's also a ranged attack, not due to the ability itself. An eldritch blast shaped with hideous blow doesn't provoke.

Actually, it does. They provoke because the Warlock is basically a caster class and WotC felt that letting them ignore Conc with their 2 skill points was OP.

Yeah, WotC are idiots.

[Tokiko Mima]

I try to see it as a bonus. You can't metamagic up your melee/ranged attacks, but since Eldritch blast is literally spellcasting with all the advantages and penalties thereof, it works. It also work great for stuff like Fly-by Attack and Belt of Battle. If your DM is generous and your race starts with an SLA, you can even take Supernatural Transformation (Eldritch Blast) and ignore that nasty Spell Resistance and concentration checking.

[Grushvak]

Originally Posted by Boci

One quick and dirty fix for warlock it to allow them to full attack with eldritch blast. May not be required in a low powered game.

Wait, are warlocks really that underpowered? Am I going to have a hard time in a regular campaign? I had them pegged at tier 3 or 4, but then again, I'm playing a race that's considered below LA+0 (11 years old dragonwrought kobold).

I really want to play a kobold for the fluff after reading RotD but I also enjoy being, you know, efficient.

EDIT: I could probably select Power Word: Pain as my Draconic Rite of Passage SLA instead of Nerveskitter or Swift Expeditious Retreat as I had originally intended, but that would only help me in low levels.

[Boci]

Originally Posted by Grushvak

Wait, are warlocks really that underpowered? Am I going to have a hard time in a regular campaign? I had them pegged at tier 3 or 4, but then again, I'm playing a race that's considered below LA+0 (11 years old dragonwrought kobold).

I really want to play a kobold for the fluff after reading RotD but I also enjoy being, you know, efficient.

It depends on a lot of things. One is of course your build. Of you've only got 1 magical item to boost EB (that holy napkin) then you are doing 11d6 damage at level 20. Remember how a rogue's 10d6 SA damage on ever attack is considered so-so? Also, in most games, casters never really run out of spell slots beofre an exstended rest, so the at will feature of you your EB isn't all that great. They are classed as tier 4 (the dragonfire adept is better than the warlock, but not better enough to be tier 3)

[Grushvak]

I didn't really read through all the invocations, but aren't those supposed to be where the true power of Warlocks resides?

[Boci]

Originally Posted by Grushvak

I didn't really read through all the invocations, but aren't those supposed to be where the true power of Warlocks resides?

2 types of them are just ways of altering and improving your EB. The remaining ones are useful, but ultimatly just weaker versions of what other casters can do. Useful when they run out of spells, but in most games that doesn't happen too often.

[Grushvak]

Well, uh... UMD as a class skill? How about that UMD?

Skill points per level: 2 + INT modifier

... poop.

EDIT: I try to tell myself that this is just making the caster classes more balanced, but it still feels like a glass cannon running on wet gunpowder. Basically, what is a Warlock's primary role? It can't be heavy artillery, since the damage output is just sad. It can't be utility, since the selection of invocations is so frickin' limited. And it definitely can't be skillmonkey or tank. So what is it? This class confuses me.

[Boci]

Originally Posted by Grushvak

Well, uh... UMD as a class skill? How about that UMD?



... poop.

Its still useful. They are char based and can take a 10 on UMD. However, there are some problems. The DC for magic items is typically low, since they have a minmal state modfier. You also need to aquire them. However, psending some of your WBL on some wands or scrolls is probably a good idea. Just don't over do it.

[Grushvak]

Well... this is sad. But I'm already committed to the idea, so I'll try to make this work somehow.

[Clementx]

Originally Posted by Grushvak

It can't be heavy artillery, since the damage output is just sad. It can't be utility, since the selection of invocations is so frickin' limited. And it definitely can't be skillmonkey or tank. So what is it? This class confuses me.

You pick up a couple blasts and essenses, and then you select 8 or so tricks, each worth 20-30kgp if they were magic items. You plink for damage, but you do so while invisibly flying and 20% concealment against ranged attacks. Or you poke in melee, teleporting and leaving illusionary doubles of yourself. Or you save yourself 18 skill points and get +6 to three Knowledges and make yourself a sage. Or you scribble down whatever spell you want into a scroll to teach it to your wizard friend. And you take care of teleporting the party while picking your best save.

Warlocks are quite wonderful.

[Boci]

Originally Posted by Grushvak

Well... this is sad. But I'm already committed to the idea, so I'll try to make this work somehow.

Have you checked the warlocks handbook? http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...rlock_Handbook

[Lamech]

Ahh... yes, making any scroll you want. The wizard will be your best friend. But yeah, your main purpose is to plink from far away. Preferably while invisible and out of true sight range. Nothing says screw you like shooting stuff from out of true sight range while invisible. IIRC one invocation (or whatever) is a fort save or lose a minutes worth of standard actions, (sickened or something) thats kind of an auto-kill.

[Grushvak]

It's good to have another take on this. This is my first time ever playing a warlock, so I'm understandably worried.

[Grushvak]

Originally Posted by Boci

Have you checked the warlocks handbook? http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...rlock_Handbook

No, I haven't. Thanks a lot for the link.

EDIT: I just read the description of Fell Flight... I feel silly for ever wasting feats on Dragon Wings. Goddamn, this single invocation is better than what I can get with two (!!) feats.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

May I humbly suggest Eldritch Glaive? In effect, you get your full attack with your EB, although at a range of 10'. With Vitriolic Blast, you also negate the SR component of your EB. With Utterdark Blast, you start giving your target negative levels. Couple with Chain Blast for sharing the fun.



Also, not all Invocations are sub-par. Baleful Polymorph at will is a lot of fun. Sure, your DC might not be quite as high as a Wizard's, but then... you get to spam a LOT. They gotta roll a natural 1 sometime...

Furthermore, look up Flee The Scene. DimDoor that leaves an image behind. Very good for making a quick getaway. Even better when paired with Walk Unseen.

Warlocks are good snipers, and with the right tricks (hellfire+Binder+Legacy Champion), you can have some truly sick damage output.

[Grushvak]

May I humbly suggest Eldritch Glaive?

Too squishy to fight from that range.

Warlocks are good snipers, and with the right tricks (hellfire+Binder+Legacy Champion), you can have some truly sick damage output.

If you have some time to spare, could you explain those tricks?

Otherwise, I think I'll just go for battlefield control. I was initially going to select Sickening Blast as my first least invocation, but I veto'd in favor of Summon Swarm. I'm looking into Complete Scoundrel's Swift Concentration skill trick right now to see if I'm able to keep up more than one swarm at a time.

[Boci]

Originally Posted by Grushvak

If you have some time to spare, could you explain those tricks?

Hellfire warlock gives quite a big bonus to EB in return for 1 con damage each time you use it. A level dip into the binder allow you to heal 1 point of ability damage per round. I'm not sure what he means by legacy champion but it might be a trick that stretches RAW to the limit by advancing Hellfire Warlock beyond the amount of levels the PrC actually has, although it might be perfectly legit. (Sorry in advance ShneekeyTheLost if it is)

[Grushvak]

And what book is the Binder class from? I don't want to outshine the other players, but I'd keep this trick in mind if I end up having a really hard time keeping up with the rest of the group.

[Boci]

Originally Posted by Grushvak

And what book is the Binder class from? I don't want to outshine the other players, but I'd keep this trick in mind if I end up having a really hard time keeping up with the rest of the group.

Tome of Magic. Its the only class in the book that works without a fix (although its not hard to fix Shadowcasters). You choose your bound vestige to be Naberus - The Grinning Hound. (He also gives you some nifty skill related abilities)

Hellfire Warlock is a PrC from the Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells in case you didn't know.

[streakster]

Personally, I generally play my warlocks as untouchables - a pixie warlock is quite hard to damage! - and then just throw endless debuffs at the enemy party while sowing as much confusion as possible. The damage is just a nice side bonus.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Originally Posted by Grushvak

Too squishy to fight from that range.

Fell Flight + Eldritch Glaive + Walk Unseen. Try hitting me. First, ya gotta find me, then ya gotta be able to reach me. Glaive is a reach weapon.

If you have some time to spare, could you explain those tricks?

Otherwise, I think I'll just go for battlefield control. I was initially going to select Sickening Blast as my first least invocation, but I veto'd in favor of Summon Swarm. I'm looking into Complete Scoundrel's Swift Concentration skill trick right now to see if I'm able to keep up more than one swarm at a time.

Okay, here's how it goes:

Hellfire Warlock is a three-level PrC which increases your EB damage every level, at the cost of Con damage every time you use it. Binder + Naberous lets you heal one stat damage per round.

Legacy Champion is where it gets a little... cheesy. Basically, you know the Uncanny Trickster PrC in Complete Scoundrel? The one that 'advances class features' 2/3? Yea, use that on Hellfire Warlock, and you further increase damage output. Legacy Champion does that... but it's a 10 level class which promotes 'class features' 8/10. So you can get a truly sickening amount of damage in your EB.

Sickening Blast sucks, because it really doesn't do much. I'd go look up Hindering Blast (slow effect tagged onto EB) if you want an Eldritch Essence which is actually useful.

Summon Swarm is pretty good choice.

For the best Crowd Control, however, you need Dragonfire Adept + Entangling Exhalation.

[Grushvak]

Definitely too cheesy. I want my character to be viable and upon further consideration, the invocation list looks good enough for my character to become a decent addition to a party. Also, I own none of the books these classes come from annyway, so it's a bad sign.

But thanks a lot for the optimization advice anyway. I don't really care if I'm not the best I could be, I was simply afraid I'd end up being worthless in my party.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Originally Posted by Grushvak

Definitely too cheesy. I want my character to be viable and upon further consideration, the invocation list looks good enough for my character to become a decent addition to a party. Also, I own none of the books these classes come from annyway, so it's a bad sign.

But thanks a lot for the optimization advice anyway. I don't really care if I'm not the best I could be, I was simply afraid I'd end up being worthless in my party.

Then for a simple way of being effective:

1) Fell Flight + Eldritch Blast = sniping fun. If they can't hit you, then you can rain death and destruction down upon them.

2) Chain Blast is good for spreading your Eldritch Essences across multiple opponents. So is Cone Blast, if you can get your DC's up there. It's good for mass extermination of mooks without expending resources.

3) Vitriolic Blast removes the SR component, which can be exceedingly handy against certain opponents. Does make it acid damage, which might be partially resisted.

4) Utterdark Blast. if you get to level 16, this comes first. Negative levels = fun.

5) Feats of choice: Empower Spell-Like Ability, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Point Blank and Precise shot (so you don't hit your buddies in melee with your targets), and Ability Focus (+1 DC for invocations).

6) Flee The Scene. If you can't get hit, you can't get hurt.