Good is Not Nice: A Paladin's Guide

[EvilAnagram]

Okay, so far I've seen four viable, solid multiclass builds for Pally Warlock. It's officially sky-blue.

[Ferrin33]

Okay, so far I've seen four viable, solid multiclass builds for Pally Warlock. It's officially sky-blue.

Paladin/Ranger; Three levels gives you horde breaker and another fighting style, as well as access to Hunter's Mark without being a paladin of vengeance. I think horde breaker makes it worth the things you give up but I wouldn't go higher than that. Put it at great for three levels, and red beyond that in my opinion.

Paladin/Rogue; I don't see why you gave it two colors, it should be pretty obvious it's meant to be used as a Dexterity paladin. I have to add that even as a strength based paladin rogue levels are quite powerful, sneak attack with allies(or while mounted!), expertise, Cunning Action and Uncanny Dodge are all spectacular abilities even without maxing dexterity. It's not Great as strength but it's Average or Good at least.

Paladin/Sorcerer; In my opinion this is actually really good because of the difference in spells the classes have, they make for a more well-rounded spell list. It's also good to note that Quickened Spell is an absolutely amazing ability for a Gish. There's many ways to build this, with Paladin6 as a starting point and adding sorcerer levels as you go. There are a lot of decent breakpoints for either class so it doesn't even matter to much at which points you cut it off, although at least 3-5 sorcerer levels are recommended. I'd put this at great over good.

[EvilAnagram]

Paladin/Ranger; Three levels gives you horde breaker and another fighting style, as well as access to Hunter's Mark without being a paladin of vengeance. I think horde breaker makes it worth the things you give up but I wouldn't go higher than that. Put it at great for three levels, and red beyond that in my opinion.

Horde Breaker isn't worth any Paladin levels at all, in my opinion. I personally wouldn't choose it over any of the other Hunter options at that level, and I certainly wouldn't delay getting great Paladin powers for it.

You're right about getting Hunter's Mark, but it's not worth the levels you lose. If you want Hunter's Mark, be an Avenger. Otherwise, you may have to comfort yourself with Improved Divine Smite in a few more levels. Keep in mind, I didn't make Rangers Red. A Ranger multiclass offers some things, but it's generally not worth it.

Paladin/Rogue; I don't see why you gave it two colors, it should be pretty obvious it's meant to be used as a Dexterity paladin. I have to add that even as a strength based paladin rogue levels are quite powerful, sneak attack with allies(or while mounted!), expertise, Cunning Action and Uncanny Dodge are all spectacular abilities even without maxing dexterity. It's not Great as strength but it's Average or Good at least.

Good points. Thanks!

Paladin/Sorcerer; In my opinion this is actually really good because of the difference in spells the classes have, they make for a more well-rounded spell list. It's also good to note that Quickened Spell is an absolutely amazing ability for a Gish. There's many ways to build this, with Paladin6 as a starting point and adding sorcerer levels as you go. There are a lot of decent breakpoints for either class so it doesn't even matter to much at which points you cut it off, although at least 3-5 sorcerer levels are recommended. I'd put this at great over good.

It is really good, which is why it's blue. There are better Gish options, though, so it's not sky-blue.

[Ferrin33]

Horde Breaker isn't worth any Paladin levels at all, in my opinion. I personally wouldn't choose it over any of the other Hunter options at that level, and I certainly wouldn't delay getting great Paladin powers for it.

You're right about getting Hunter's Mark, but it's not worth the levels you lose. If you want Hunter's Mark, be an Avenger. Otherwise, you may have to comfort yourself with Improved Divine Smite in a few more levels. Keep in mind, I didn't make Rangers Red. A Ranger multiclass offers some things, but it's generally not worth it.

I would like to hear other people's opinion on this as well.

It is really good, which is why it's blue. There are better Gish options, though, so it's not sky-blue.

Which one's are better then as multiclass options, and for what reasons? The metamagic and sorcery points associated with it really pulls out ahead if not at least equal with the other options.

[EvilAnagram]

Which one's are better then as multiclass options, and for what reasons? The metamagic and sorcery points associated with it really pulls out ahead if not at least equal with the other options.

I can take a swing at this. There are two reasons to multiclass. First, to min/max some aspect of your character. Taking classes in rogue or fighter, for example, increases your ability to damage your opponent with physical attacks by quite a bit. Paladins are already good at this, but they can get excellent, immediate boosts by multiclassing.

Another reason to multiclass is to round out your character by giving them access to things they did not have access to before. A Paladin who takes spellcaster levels is doing this.

However, multiclassing is usually most effective when it's a quick dip that gets you what you need. If I have to take eight levels in Sorcerer to be effective, I'm losing out on a lot of Paladin features to be an okay sorcerer. You can be a kind of combined class, but you usually won't be as good at whatever it is you specialize in as you would be had you not multiclassed.

Sorcerers are great, thanks to metamagic. They have solid spell lists and can easily be made into great blasters. However, two levels of Warlock net you the most damaging cantrip in the game, Pact Magic that regenerates slots on a short rest, and access to excellent invocations that can give you passive bonuses without using spell slots. Warlocks are simply better when it comes to giving a Paladin that extra ranged oomph.

When it comes to spells that are more utility-oriented, Bards have a lot more utility options than Sorcerers do.

If I were building a pure caster, I would pick a Sorcerer over just about any other class. However, as a multiclass option, I think that both Bard and Warlock offer better boosts in fewer levels.

However, a one level dip in both Sorcerer and Warlock would give you both Quickened Spell and Eldritch Blast with the Agonizing Blast incantation, which might be the best option overall. But having that many different classes seems silly.

[Xetheral]

Horde Breaker isn't worth any Paladin levels at all, in my opinion. I personally wouldn't choose it over any of the other Hunter options at that level, and I certainly wouldn't delay getting great Paladin powers for it. I would like to hear other people's opinion on this as well.

I would like to hear other people's opinion on this as well.

Horde Breaker is one of the only ways to get an additional attack that doesn't require a bonus action and that stacks with Extra Attack. This makes it extremely appealing to almost any martial build (although possibly still not worth three levels of Ranger). Additionally, Paladin is one of the best-positioned classes to take advantage of the Horde Breaker attack, because Divine Smite isn't limited to once per round.

__________

Speaking of Divine Smite not being limited to once per round... I'd suggest adding something to the multiclass section about the immense appeal of dipping Paladin 2 to non-paladin Gish builds. Divine Smite is an inferior use of most low-to-mid level spells, but the ability to tap some of the power represented by those spells without using an action bends the strictly-enforced action economy of 5e more strongly than possibly any other ability.

[EvilAnagram]

I just don't consider giving up Paladin levels (and therefore Paladin spells and spell slots I can Smite with, not to mention missing out on class features) in order to occasionally get an extra attack that will never help me against a solo creature to be a remotely equitable exchange. Especially when the other Hunter features at that level are much more beneficial.

I'll consider the multiclass addition.

[Ferrin33]

I just don't consider giving up Paladin levels (and therefore Paladin spells and spell slots I can Smite with, not to mention missing out on class features) in order to occasionally get an extra attack that will never help me against a solo creature to be a remotely equitable exchange. Especially when the other Hunter features at that level are much more beneficial.

I'll consider the multiclass addition.

The game does not revolve around one vs one combat. Horde Breaker is amazing against multiple enemies, absolute gold.

[Xetheral]

I just don't consider giving up Paladin levels (and therefore Paladin spells and spell slots I can Smite with, not to mention missing out on class features) in order to occasionally get an extra attack that will never help me against a solo creature to be a remotely equitable exchange. Especially when the other Hunter features at that level are much more beneficial.

Fair enough. Horde Breaker is good (personally I see it as far and away better than the other hunter choices, but I know I'm in the minority), but given how little Ranger gets in its first three levels grabbing it represents a huge sacrifice. Note though, that Ranger gives equivalent spell progression to Paladin, so while you're missing out on Paladin spells you're not missing out on slots to smite with.

[DireSickFish]

The game does not revolve around one vs one combat. Horde Breaker is amazing against multiple enemies, absolute gold.

No but one of the first thing a player learns as far as tactics is that killing one enemy at a time is more effective than spreading the damage out to multiple enemies. Hoard breaker is cool, and nice against mooks but 3 ranger lvls is a huge investment for such a minor benefit. Pally is also one of the best int he game at piling on damage to a single foe with his Smite class feature and Hoard breaker is the antithesis to that.

I'm not saying Multiclass Ranger is always terrible and no one should ever do it, but it isn't a huge power spike thus is not a "good" or "amazing" option.

[Strill]

Horde Breaker isn't worth any Paladin levels at all, in my opinion. I personally wouldn't choose it over any of the other Hunter options at that level, and I certainly wouldn't delay getting great Paladin powers for it.

You're right about getting Hunter's Mark, but it's not worth the levels you lose. If you want Hunter's Mark, be an Avenger. Otherwise, you may have to comfort yourself with Improved Divine Smite in a few more levels. Keep in mind, I didn't make Rangers Red. A Ranger multiclass offers some things, but it's generally not worth it.

I disagree. Hunter's Mark isn't very good because you already have a spell that gives you +1d4 damage while costing a bonus action. Horde Breaker, on the other hand, is amazing once you've gotten Improved Divine Smite. It's probably the best way to boost your melee damage next to the Haste spell.

[EvilAnagram]

I disagree. Hunter's Mark isn't very good because you already have a spell that gives you +1d4 damage while costing a bonus action. Horde Breaker, on the other hand, is amazing once you've gotten Improved Divine Smite. It's probably the best way to boost your melee damage next to the Haste spell.

In play, in my experience, it is rare for Horde Breaker to come into play, and I think it's rarity would absolutely negate its being worth three Ranger levels. Unless your character makes a habit of being completely surrounded, it won't come into play very much.

I personally find Hunter's Mark to be very useful. It might not be worth two Ranger levels, but it's a decent power.

[Strill]

In play, in my experience, it is rare for Horde Breaker to come into play, and I think it's rarity would absolutely negate its being worth three Ranger levels. Unless your character makes a habit of being completely surrounded, it won't come into play very much.

How many enemies does your group generally fight in an encounter?

I personally find Hunter's Mark to be very useful. It might not be worth two Ranger levels, but it's a decent power.

It's not that Hunter's Mark isn't useful, it's that you already have an ability that does much the same thing.

[EvilAnagram]

How many enemies does your group generally fight in an encounter?

How often do all the enemies cluster around one combatant?

[Strill]

How often do all the enemies cluster around one combatant?

Pretty often if that one combatant rushes out in the middle. You only need two enemies in range regardless.

[EvilAnagram]

Pretty often if that one combatant rushes out in the middle. You only need two enemies in range regardless.

Not in my experience, especially in a game in which many creatures die in one hit.

[Dralnu]

Man, it's hard for me to choose between Devotion and Vengeance. From Devotion, I love Sacred Weapon, but dislike that it takes an action to activate. If you had the opportunity to swing that turn, the activation only becomes worth it after like 3+ more rounds, so that's pretty lame. Turn the Unholy is the best though and the other abilities are all great. From Vengeance, I understand the immense value that comes from combat advantage on demand, but it's only one enemy. Hunter's Mark is a small upgrade from Divine Favor, 1d6 instead of 1d4. The rest is good, but I like the Devotion stuff more.

Argh, decisions! I'm glad that it's such a tough choice though. Good balance! I'm thinking Vengeance is slightly better only if Sacred Weapon's action activation really hampers it.

[Abithrios]

I can take a swing at this. There are two reasons to multiclass. First, to min/max some aspect of your character. Taking classes in rogue or fighter, for example, increases your ability to damage your opponent with physical attacks by quite a bit. Paladins are already good at this, but they can get excellent, immediate boosts by multiclassing.

Another reason to multiclass is to round out your character by giving them access to things they did not have access to before. A Paladin who takes spellcaster levels is doing this.

However, multiclassing is usually most effective when it's a quick dip that gets you what you need. If I have to take eight levels in Sorcerer to be effective, I'm losing out on a lot of Paladin features to be an okay sorcerer. You can be a kind of combined class, but you usually won't be as good at whatever it is you specialize in as you would be had you not multiclassed.

Sorcerers are great, thanks to metamagic. They have solid spell lists and can easily be made into great blasters. However, two levels of Warlock net you the most damaging cantrip in the game, Pact Magic that regenerates slots on a short rest, and access to excellent invocations that can give you passive bonuses without using spell slots. Warlocks are simply better when it comes to giving a Paladin that extra ranged oomph.

When it comes to spells that are more utility-oriented, Bards have a lot more utility options than Sorcerers do.

If I were building a pure caster, I would pick a Sorcerer over just about any other class. However, as a multiclass option, I think that both Bard and Warlock offer better boosts in fewer levels.

However, a one level dip in both Sorcerer and Warlock would give you both Quickened Spell and Eldritch Blast with the Agonizing Blast incantation, which might be the best option overall. But having that many different classes seems silly.

If you take levels in a full spellcasting class, you move faster down the multiclass table of spell slots. This could mean more and stronger smites. The biggest problem I see is if it prevents you from getting improved divine smite.

Okay, so far I've seen four viable, solid multiclass builds for Pally Warlock. It's officially sky-blue.

I would love to see these. I have an idea floating around in my head of a paladin/warlock with warlock powers granted by a powerful celestial. The mechanics of a fiend patron look like they would work very well for that purpose as written for at least a few levels (the level 14 fiend patron ability is irrelevant if you do not plan to go that deep).

[Yagyujubei]

well, a 2 level dip into warlock as paladin gets you the following synergistic stuff:

Eldritch blast + Agonizing blast - the best ranged damage a paladin could ask for that scales incredibly well

another invocation - many good utility choices here. devils sight give 120ft darkvision in normal and magical darkness. repelling blast adds 10ft knockback to your eldritch blast (max @ 40 ft if all blasts hit)

spell goodness - Hex and armor of agathys are among the best level 1 spells in the game esp. AoA which a pally will LOVE, and 2 short rest spell slots can be good for having more healing access, or just for any of your best low levels.

1st lvl patron feature - some great stuff here. a short rest AoE fear, telepethy, THP on kill.

not to mention if you wanna go the polearm/sentinel route, adding warcaster and Eldritch blast to that is downright insane.

[Demonicattorney]

not to mention if you wanna go the polearm/sentinel route, adding warcaster and Eldritch blast to that is downright insane.

This does not work. Has been confirmed by Devs not to work. Also, is thematically dumb. Also, not to be too much of a purist, but Paladins of any variety probably shouldn't be warlocked with Fiends or Cthulhu. It kindof makes sense that an Ancients Paladin might have a relationship with a Fey God, but that is the only iteration that makes any sense. They loosened Paladin alignments, so that you can play a LN avenger style or CG Fey Style, not obliterated them. All iterations of Paladin serve Justice first, some iteration of a good or lawful god, second. If you want to play an evil fighter with spells, play an Eldritch Knight or wait for the Blackguard, dont sully the Paladin with this sold my soul for power Warlock BS multiclass, because their is CHA synergy between the classes.

[Abithrios]

This does not work. Has been confirmed by Devs not to work. Also, is thematically dumb. Also, not to be too much of a purist, but Paladins of any variety probably shouldn't be warlocked with Fiends or Cthulhu. It kindof makes sense that an Ancients Paladin might have a relationship with a Fey God, but that is the only iteration that makes any sense. They loosened Paladin alignments, so that you can play a LN avenger style or CG Fey Style, not obliterated them. All iterations of Paladin serve Justice first, some iteration of a good or lawful god, second. If you want to play an evil fighter with spells, play an Eldritch Knight or wait for the Blackguard, dont sully the Paladin with this sold my soul for power Warlock BS multiclass, because their is CHA synergy between the classes.

One of the paladin oaths is vengeance. That is a word I associate with LN at best and in literature is often associated with mad and ultimately self destructive quests and Men who would see the world burn if their foe burned with it.

[Strill]

One of the paladin oaths is vengeance. That is a word I associate with LN at best and in literature is often associated with mad and ultimately self destructive quests and Men who would see the world burn if their foe burned with it.

That's not what the Vengeance oath says. It says that once you swear vengeance upon something, you must take responsibility for any harm it does before you are able to vanquish it.

Vengeance may be self-destructive, but it's not obsessed with destroying the world to protect it.

[Demonicattorney]

One of the paladin oaths is vengeance. That is a word I associate with LN at best and in literature is often associated with mad and ultimately self destructive quests and Men who would see the world burn if their foe burned with it.

That isn't a Paladin. Oath of Vengeance specifically states that your goal is to set right what was wrong. You are trying to revert the world to what it once was, and punish evil for changing it. It requires that you serve the greater good, but cares less about the means. Literally the definition of LN though I might allow a LG Vengeance Paladin, but it definitely isn't CN,TN, nor any evil alignment.

Paladins are still Paladins, you still have to serve justice, you still have to serve good, though some oaths give some leeway about the method.

[Rummy]

well, a 2 level dip into warlock as paladin gets you the following synergistic stuff:

Eldritch blast + Agonizing blast - the best ranged damage a paladin could ask for that scales incredibly well

another invocation - many good utility choices here. devils sight give 120ft darkvision in normal and magical darkness. repelling blast adds 10ft knockback to your eldritch blast (max @ 40 ft if all blasts hit)

spell goodness - Hex and armor of agathys are among the best level 1 spells in the game esp. AoA which a pally will LOVE, and 2 short rest spell slots can be good for having more healing access, or just for any of your best low levels.

1st lvl patron feature - some great stuff here. a short rest AoE fear, telepethy, THP on kill.

not to mention if you wanna go the polearm/sentinel route, adding warcaster and Eldritch blast to that is downright insane.

I second the awesomeness of warlock pally. Please note that Mearls has stated on Twitter that the extra reaction attack from Polearm Master must use the Polearm, so no Eldritch Blast.

[Yagyujubei]

This does not work. Has been confirmed by Devs not to work. Also, is thematically dumb. Also, not to be too much of a purist, but Paladins of any variety probably shouldn't be warlocked with Fiends or Cthulhu. It kindof makes sense that an Ancients Paladin might have a relationship with a Fey God, but that is the only iteration that makes any sense. They loosened Paladin alignments, so that you can play a LN avenger style or CG Fey Style, not obliterated them. All iterations of Paladin serve Justice first, some iteration of a good or lawful god, second. If you want to play an evil fighter with spells, play an Eldritch Knight or wait for the Blackguard, dont sully the Paladin with this sold my soul for power Warlock BS multiclass, because their is CHA synergy between the classes.

it would take zero effort to re-flavor fiend into Solar and be fine. fiendish vigor? now you're angelic vigor. problem solved.

also, even if the polearm/sentinel/EB combo doesnt work, just rolling sentinel/warcaster would still get you EB on your OA's which is still totally awesome. oh, also your opinion is thematically dumb. don't tell me how to play my make believe game thx.

EDIT: and I wasn't even assuming you could EB on the extra atk action from polearm master, the feat combo just lets you throw out OA's like a boss, and an OA with agonizing EB is REALLY potent.

[Demonicattorney]

it would take zero effort to re-flavor fiend into Solar and be fine. fiendish vigor? now you're angelic vigor. problem solved.

also, even if the polearm/sentinel/EB combo doesnt work, just rolling sentinel/warcaster would still get you EB on your OA's which is still totally awesome. oh, also your opinion is thematically dumb. don't tell me how to play my make believe game thx.

EDIT: and I wasn't even assuming you could EB on the extra atk action from polearm master, the feat combo just lets you throw out OA's like a boss, and an OA with agonizing EB is REALLY potent.

So you think having Fireball, Wall of Fire, is fitting with a celestial?, You think that gaining temp HP for killing people is a celestial attribute? Everything about the Fiend pact screams fire/death/evil. How about hurl through hell?, where creatures take psychic damage because the experience is so traumatic... the truth is that celestials don't require you to sell yourself into slavery in order to tap their power, they just require you to do good or worship them. You can rename a bunch of abilities, but it doesn't reflavor them.

Also don't pretend like you weren't trying to say that Warcaster let you Eldritch Blast on your OA from Polearm, that is just revisionist.

Suffice it to say I don't like the flavor of Paladin/Warlocks, I think people only think it is cool because the classes have some synergy, not for any RP reason. I also think that outside of level 15+ builds, almost every Paladin will be worse multiclassing with Warlock rather than just getting their abilities on time.

[Ferrin33]

So you think having Fireball, Wall of Fire, is fitting with a celestial?, You think that gaining temp HP for killing people is a celestial attribute? Everything about the Fiend pact screams fire/death/evil. How about hurl through hell?, where creatures take psychic damage because the experience is so traumatic... the truth is that celestials don't require you to sell yourself into slavery in order to tap their power, they just require you to do good or worship them. You can rename a bunch of abilities, but it doesn't reflavor them.

Also don't pretend like you weren't trying to say that Warcaster let you Eldritch Blast on your OA from Polearm, that is just revisionist.

Suffice it to say I don't like the flavor of Paladin/Warlocks, I think people only think it is cool because the classes have some synergy, not for any RP reason. I also think that outside of level 15+ builds, almost every Paladin will be worse multiclassing with Warlock rather than just getting their abilities on time.

Just because you don't like a character concept doesn't mean no one else does, and you straight up say those people don't actually like it but are just doing it for the mechanics? That is extremely rude.

Forging a pact with a fiend out of desperation as a paladin works just fine, as do any number of justifications for it. Oath of the Ancients works fine with both Archfey and the Great Old One without thinking to much even.

Fireball and wall of fire... Did you read the Solar entry? Its' legendary actions include a very fiery ability and the Planetar has Flame Strike in his spells per day. Only Stinking Cloud has the wrong flavor in the spell list. Dark One's Blessing; striking down evil(enemies) gives you a blessing. Dark One's Own Luck; just change the name and it's fine, same for Fiendish Resilience. Hurl Through Hell; instead of going through hell the enemy is faced with his past sins in a Scrooge-like scenario.

[Demonicattorney]

I do think people are doing it for mechanical reasons. I do think it is very hard to justify. I don't think selling your soul for power is a very Paladin-like thing to do. I don't think a Paladin of Ancients would worship or deal with Cthulhu or That Which Lurks, or any Fiend.

Exactly one of the three angels has a Flamestrike spell-like ability, in which a pillar of divine fire (half radiant/half fire) hits players. That is the only celestial fire ability, so no, I don't view Fireball (Balors and Pit Fiends have this spell though) or Wall of Fire as appropriate.

Moreover, gaining temporary HP by killing creature and feeding off their life force, doens't sound very "Good" to me, no matter how you try to reflavor it.

My posts reflect how I and many other DMs will feel about that particular class combination, you might not agree, but it bears mentioning because other players will run into the issue.

[EvilAnagram]

So you think having Fireball, Wall of Fire, is fitting with a celestial?

Um... yes? Remember the Flame of Anor? The flaming sword that guards the entrance to paradise? The balls of fire that smote Sodom and Gamora?

Suffice it to say I don't like the flavor of Paladin/Warlocks, I think people only think it is cool because the classes have some synergy, not for any RP reason. I also think that outside of level 15+ builds, almost every Paladin will be worse multiclassing with Warlock rather than just getting their abilities on time.

I think the Fey Pact/Oath of Ancients has some good synergy, but overall you're right. Paladins follow a path of discipline and self-restraint, while Warlocks seek quick paths to power.

[Yagyujubei]

yeah man, ever heard of holy fire? angels use fire too just like fiends do.

and tell me this isn't legit rp. A paladin finds that the devotion of his order is lacking conviction in his opinion. they aren't willing to do what it takes to keep the realm truly safe, he leaves his order to do the things that are necessary as a oath of vengeance paladin, and is willing to make a path with a particularly wrathful solar to get it done. we're talking old testament here, real wrath of god type stuff, fire and brimstone coming down from the skies, rivers and seas boiling! (rimshot)

as a truly convicted oath of vengeance paladin, he would 100% believe that any life he takes was necessary and anyone he kills is an infidel or evil, furthering his own conviction that what he is doing is the right thing and bolstering his resolve (thp). the spells burning hands and command could EASILY be considered things that a solar would give you, and thats all you have to justify as RP, because it's just a 2 level dip.

there is NOONE who could seriously be dissatisfied with that RP backstory for a character. paladin to 3 to take oath of vengeance, then 2 levels in warlock making a pack with a solar, then finishing off paladin with newfound resolve.

EDIT: And about EB proccing of the bonus attack from polearm master, I seriously wasn't including that and hadn't even considered it. I haven't thought about it much since my two characters right now are a monk/warlock and a ranger/bard. I haven't even really gotten into theory crafting on paladin, and generally don't like the idea of wielding polearms in combat, im more of a DEX style kinda guy. it's strong even without including that.